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Ouze wrote: I thought the ending was awful pre-extended cut, and much better post-EC.
Pretty much this, but even the Post-EC was weaker then it could have been. As has previously been stated, game of the decade... till the last 20 minutes.
The last twenty minutes was pretty much epically awesome in every way, and the hard decision at the end made the game better.
It was epically awesome.
In case you don't know what the indoctrination theory is. Many people want Shepard at the end to wake up and say "it was all a dream". As you may or may not know the "it was all a dream ending" is considered the very highest form of art and storytelling. Totally would have been so much better than the actual ending....
That's not entirely correct.
"Indoctrination Theory" is that the reason "Control" and "Destroy" are the choices they are (Paragon and Renegade respectively) is because of Reaper influence.
There's the more detailed version which is, "everything after Shepard gets shot by Harbinger running to the... teleporter? Was an attempt at reaper indoctrination. Therefore the renegade 'destroy' ending was Shepard choosing to resist the indoctrination whereas Control was Shepard giving in.
This was further shown by the 'teaser' of the Destroy ending, which has Shepard waking up in rubble that looks a lot more Earthlike than citadel-ish. The theory then goes on to postulate that there would be a final, proper ending as a DLC pack.
I really do not understand why people are so upset with the ending.
Because from the beginning, we were told that every single choice we made would have meaningful results. In the end, though, none of that mattered overmuch. Regardless of what you did, you got the same 2 color choice, and in some circumstances, got the third.
If you don't understand it at this point then frankly you're not going to, not after however many thousands of articles written about this explaining the frustration of it, I mean veritable oceans of digital ink spilled on the topic. I know we have a shared interest in this game and I'm honestly not trying to be a dick, but I don't think there is any way that I can explain it to you that will make you understand. Just the way it is, I think.
I don't have a problem with the.... resolution for Shepard, lets say. and I think the Indoctrination theory is crap as well, it's just a fancy way of saying "it was all a dream" which is lame. I just wanted more exposition in the ending (which the EC added) and maybe more variant endings (which, technically, the EC also added one more).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/13 23:57:49
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
I'm glad I didn't play until long after the EC was released, I didn't mind the ending and after reading what it was like pre-EC I can certainly understand why people were upset. Myself I was upset that the ending wasn't as good as some old school RPGs like fallout or arcanum. Having a simple slideshow featuring all the factions and places you visited with a voice over explaining how your actions impacted them. Yes the EC had this but it still wasn't as good or had as much variety as a game that was released over a decade ago.
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I really do not understand why people are so upset with the ending.
Because from the beginning, we were told that every single choice we made would have meaningful results. In the end, though, none of that mattered overmuch. Regardless of what you did, you got the same 2 color choice, and in some circumstances, got the third.
If you don't understand it at this point then frankly you're not going to, not after however many thousands of articles written about this explaining the frustration of it, I mean veritable oceans of digital ink spilled on the topic. I know we have a shared interest in this game and I'm honestly not trying to be a dick, but I don't think there is any way that I can explain it to you that will make you understand. Just the way it is, I think.
I think this is where the problem lies. Too much of the discussion hinges solely upon "I did not get to make some amazing choice based upon my previous choices!", while ignoring that BioWare never said your choices will affect the endings.
They said those choices would affect Mass Effect 3, and the choices certainly did that.
Spoiler:
Things like Grunt surviving his 'last stand', the Rachni Queen, Samara and her daughters, Thane and his fight with Kai Leng, etc.
Those are all affected by choices you made in ME2 and ME1.
I don't have a problem with the.... resolution for Shepard, lets say. and I think the Indoctrination theory is crap as well, it's just a fancy way of saying "it was all a dream" which is lame. I just wanted more exposition in the ending (which the EC added) and maybe more variant endings (which, technically, the EC also added one more).
I don't think they could have done more variant endings to be honest. The Reapers as a threat really did not lend themselves to more logical thinking as to how you dealt with them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/14 00:44:21
Ok, well I understand where you guys who are disappointed with the finale are coming from. But there has got to be gamers like myself who didn't read blogs, message boards or any of the like, nor got into the pre-release hype.
I bought the game, played it, loved it, and beat it. And I wasn't bitterly disappointed with the ending. In fact I thought it was good.
Guess I'm in the minority, though.
I'm really looking forward to replaying the entire series. Especially since I never played ME1. I got into the game with ME2.
I really loved both ME2 and ME3, and the story is second to none, with some incredible moments. Among the best I've ever seen in a RPG.
Here is a big list of quotes from Bioware reps with sources most of which end up being broken promises.
My favourite is one that actually isnt on there, one dev said that he hates people refering to the endings as a choice between red, green or blue as they are our words not his and does the story a disservice. Meanwhe in the game files the three movie files for the endings are named red, green and blue.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/14 01:01:58
Here is a big list of quotes from Bioware reps with sources most of which end up being broken promises.
The fact that it is labeled "Broken Promises" reminds me of how overly dramatic people can be reacting to the pre-game buildup and the expectations and interpretations they make from small comments people make.
To give you an idea, very few of those are outright "broken promises". The Rachni do play a part in the build-up for Priority: Earth, for an example. I do not see a way that Gamble could have elaborated without spoiling a major plot component in ME3.
My favourite is one that actually isn't on there, one dev said that he hates people referring to the endings as a choice between red, green or blue as they are our words not his and does the story a disservice. Meanwhile in the game files the three movie files for the endings are named red, green and blue.
The fact that the files are named such does not mean that the devs referred to them as "red, green, or blue". Given the sheer amount of datamining that goes on with Mass Effect's resources (Remember that parts of "Leviathan" were leaked months in advance because of datamining a Multiplayer centric patch), it makes sense to not label things based upon spoiler elements.
Except they didnt' bother to hide other potential spoilers in the game files.
I'm not trying to destroy bioware, I love the ME series but before release they said a lot of things about the game which did not end up happening and people were justifiably upset.
Double Fine Adventure, Wasteland 2, Nekro, Shadowrun Returns, Tropes vs. Women in Video Games, Planetary Annihilation, Project Eternity, Distance, Dreamfall Chapters, Torment: Tides of Numenera, Consortium, Divinity: Original Sin, Smart Guys, Raging Heroes - The Toughest Girls of the Galaxy, Armikrog, Massive Chalice, Satellite Reign, Cthulhu Wars, Warmachine: Tactics, Game Loading: Rise Of The Indies, Indie Statik, Awesomenauts: Starstorm, Cosmic Star Heroine, THE LONG DARK, The Mandate, Stasis, Hand of Fate, Upcycled Machined Dice, Legend of Grimrock: The Series, Unsung Story: Tale of the Guardians, Cyberpunk Soundtracks, Darkest Dungeon, Starcrawlers
I personally think that the "Ending Tron 3000" aka "Press X, Y or Z to select your ending" is even more a cop out then "it was all a dream" but then again maybe I just hold Bioware to a higher standing then lame unsupported, completely unbuilt up to Deus Ex Machina which was amusingly... (spoiler for Deus Ex Human Revolution)
Spoiler:
basically a direct copy of Human Revolution's own "Ending Tron 3000"
Just an opinion and I doubt there's ever going to be reconciliation between those who liked the ending and those who didn't.
ME3 Spoiler and a brief rant:
Spoiler:
Honestly if they'd cut to an outro cut scene right as Shep was dying with Anderson, I would have not only been satisfied and wept manly tears, but I would have bloody applauded. Citadel fires or not based on readiness, and if you reached a certain point of readiness you deal the Reapers a catastrophic blow any way. Cut to the old astronaut telling us and his grandson about how Shep saved the Galaxy and call it a week eh? Yes I realize that's bloody LESS choice but that's personally how poor I feel the writing was.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/14 01:51:37
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
Kanluwen wrote: I think this is where the problem lies. Too much of the discussion hinges solely upon "I did not get to make some amazing choice based upon my previous choices!", while ignoring that BioWare never said your choices will affect the endings.
Casey Hudson, Lead Developer for Mass Effect 3, wrote: If you just rip straight down the critical path and try and finish the game as soon as you can, and do very little optional or side stuff, then you can finish the game. You can have some kind of ending and victory, but it’ll be a lot more brutal and minimal relative to if you do a lot of stuff. If you really build a lot of stuff and bring people to your side and rally the entire galaxy around you, and you come into the end game with that, then you’ll get an amazing, very definitive ending.
Read that last sentence again. It explicitly, unambiguously indicates your choices will decide whether you get a halfass ending or a "amazing, very definite ending". In fact, it matters not at all which of those 2 things you decide to do - the ending of the game is the same 2 (or possibly 3) choices regardless of what you made.
At this point, I guess we can get into some Clintoneque semantic arguments about what "the end" is, but I think you'd find it difficult to do so honestly within the parameters you laid out in your post, where you clearly delineated between the "the choices leading up to the end" and "the end, defined as being the point to which Shepard enters the Citadel to make a choice".
And besides, what's the point, anyway? I loved Mass Effect 3, and after the extended cut, I like the ending as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit - actually, that post that happened in between when I started writing my response, and when it got quiet enough here for me to actually finish and post it, was actually way better then what I posted as far as Bioware stating the ending would be more malleable then it was.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/14 01:56:59
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
In an attempt to steer this away from becoming yet another Worst Ending Ever thread I will say that the DLC is worth a spin because it's almost like a whole other ending it's so indulgent in reminiscence. Feels like the creators and characters just saying so long and thanks for all the fish.
I have not yet gotten the last DLC, but to be frank, if it involved Shepard playing pool with Wrex and Garrus while exchanging snappy conversation, I'd be well-pleased with it. The personal interactions were always far more satisfying to me then were even the most extravagant action packed set-pieces.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Kanluwen wrote: I think this is where the problem lies. Too much of the discussion hinges solely upon "I did not get to make some amazing choice based upon my previous choices!", while ignoring that BioWare never said your choices will affect the endings.
Casey Hudson, Lead Developer for Mass Effect 3, wrote: If you just rip straight down the critical path and try and finish the game as soon as you can, and do very little optional or side stuff, then you can finish the game. You can have some kind of ending and victory, but it’ll be a lot more brutal and minimal relative to if you do a lot of stuff. If you really build a lot of stuff and bring people to your side and rally the entire galaxy around you, and you come into the end game with that, then you’ll get an amazing, very definitive ending.
Read that last sentence again. It explicitly, unambiguously indicates your choices will decide whether you get a halfass ending or a "amazing, very definite ending". In fact, it matters not at all which of those 2 things you decide to do - the ending of the game is the same 2 (or possibly 3) choices regardless of what you made.
At this point, I guess we can get into some Clintoneque semantic arguments about what "the end" is, but I think you'd find it difficult to do so honestly within the parameters you laid out in your post, where you clearly delineated between the "the choices leading up to the end" and "the end, defined as being the point to which Shepard enters the Citadel to make a choice".
You're right that there's a lot of semantics about what "the end" is, but given Hudson's statements line up with my own feelings on the matter I don't think I would have too much difficulty elaborating.
In my own mind, "the end" is the entirety of the final mission on Earth.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Seriously, I'm starting to wonder if some of you have even PLAYED the game, or at least if you actually paid any goddamned attention to the game you were playing.
I noticed how my choices effected the end in my first play through, all the way through ME3, my choices came back to either haunt or reward me, to a level that far exceeded ME2 and the overwhelming majority of other game sequels for that matter. Honestly, what the hell more did you expect?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/03/14 02:25:59
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Fair enough. The only in-depth explanation I'd heard for the ending was the Indoctrination Theory and I was wondering if there was another equally viable one.
Madcat87 wrote: I'm glad I didn't play until long after the EC was released, I didn't mind the ending and after reading what it was like pre-EC I can certainly understand why people were upset. Myself I was upset that the ending wasn't as good as some old school RPGs like fallout or arcanum. Having a simple slideshow featuring all the factions and places you visited with a voice over explaining how your actions impacted them. Yes the EC had this but it still wasn't as good or had as much variety as a game that was released over a decade ago.
This would have been awesome, and less Earth centric, if they had shown how the ending affected all the races in the galaxy that united against the Reapers
KamikazeCanuck wrote: In case you don't know what the indoctrination theory is. Many people want Shepard at the end to wake up and say "it was all a dream". As you may or may not know the "it was all a dream ending" is considered the very highest form of art and storytelling. Totally would have been so much better than the actual ending....
Compel wrote: There's the more detailed version which is, "everything after Shepard gets shot by Harbinger running to the... teleporter? Was an attempt at reaper indoctrination. Therefore the renegade 'destroy' ending was Shepard choosing to resist the indoctrination whereas Control was Shepard giving in.
I think this does a pretty good job of explaining it;
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/14 02:25:46
Is anybody still playing multiplayer? I recently got back into it but most of my friends have moved into other games. Would anybody be interested in doing gold/platinum?
Is anybody still playing multiplayer? I recently got back into it but most of my friends have moved into other games. Would anybody be interested in doing gold/platinum?
I am! But I'm on PC, so I may not get to play with most of you.
As for gold/platinum, eeeeeh... I'm doing silver right now. My weapons are still crappy level one weapons. Hell I still only have one shotgun and pistol, only two sniper rifles and assault rifles, and three SMGs (none of which I like...). I'm hoping to eventually get the geth pulse rifle, the carnifex/paladin, or the asari shotgun before I try gold.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Is anybody still playing multiplayer? I recently got back into it but most of my friends have moved into other games. Would anybody be interested in doing gold/platinum?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Seriously, I'm starting to wonder if some of you have even PLAYED the game, or at least if you actually paid any goddamned attention to the game you were playing.
I noticed how my choices effected the end in my first play through, all the way through ME3, my choices came back to either haunt or reward me, to a level that far exceeded ME2 and the overwhelming majority of other game sequels for that matter. Honestly, what the hell more did you expect?
A lot of people wanted a golden ending that would have been horribly out of place thematically with the rest of the series. The entire Crucible plotline seemed stupid to me from the start. The Catalyst/Star Child just compounded it.
The crucible plotline fit in perfectly from my point of view.
Spoiler:
They had warnings from practically the beginning ME1 that the Citadel was more than it seemed, and from midway to late in ME1 that the Protheans WEREN'T the ones who made the various relays and such. Indeed, we learned at least as early on as Illos that the Protheans had splintered and tried in various desperate ways to counter the Reapers... and that the Protheans were not the first race to get wiped out as well.
The Crucible was the culmination of the efforts of numerous cycles, each one having their own version of the Prothean civilization, each one building on to it and trying desperately to stop the cycle-- and each one failing, before trying to add their efforts to the efforts of the cycle that would come after them. Until finally, one of the species COULD break the cycle... or rather... a fully united group of species, led by humanity.
How effective this Crucible was depended on the war effort-- a combination of finding more and more advanced technology and techniques to make sure the Crucible worked right, and having the military resources to defend it properly to make sure it docked with the Catalyst with as little damage as possible. By having more and more of the war effort, the Crucible ends up docking with the Catalyst with more and more completion and more and more complexity-- and the ability to activate without destroying most of the galaxy.
The entire story of ME3 was about this, bringing in the expertise of both the present races and the races of the past, the resources of an entire galaxy in to play to try to make one last push against the Reapers... and it's up to Shepard to make sure they get to that point, not to defeat the reapers on her own, but to build and hold together the fragile alliances of the various races, and to help gather the various resources needed to maximize the Crucible's chance of success. Her efforts, her massively unbreakable willpower, her strive to continue on and her skill at achieving what she has done impressed the Catalyst so much that it considered her a startling new variable and it needed further input... input that it could only have from her, the only one worthy of giving it. Thus... the ending.
It makes sense really, and I think that this is great writing.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/14 03:25:39
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Nonsensical sentences to hide spoilers. Nonsensical sentences to hide spoilers. A king, a crown, a bloodstained gown.
Spoiler:
Yes, it was the beacon or w/e that guided the Reapers into the galaxy. It really didn't need to be a super weapon. Winning via asymmetrical warfare somehow would've been better. Enlisting the aid of the Leviathans and winning a conventional war would have been better. Nearly anything would have been better than the the done a million times before plot line of let's build a superweapon/find Excalibur/collect the magic rings and orbs. It wasn't terrible writing, but I don't consider it good either.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/14 03:43:36
Sorry, forgot to mention I'm on 360. I've been doing silver for a while now, but I used to do gold back when I had people to play with. Kinda scared to do it pug, no mic is bad for gold...
Side note: has anybody beaten the game on insanity? I started a while back, and it was super tough. Is it easier when you're not playing a soldier maybe?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/14 05:20:09
Ok, now I'm done Citadel. Just about when you think it's done.... it keeps going. I once heard ME refered to as "The Great Canadian Talkie" in jest due to all the....talking. This DLC brought that back big time. They're talking with a vengeance here! Good times though. It was a good way for me to end my ME trilogy experience.
I've started playing gold multiplayer now that most of my weapons are mid range and I've got a few classes I'm good at. It's hard but not stupidly hard.
Platinum err, it's just not fun. Fighting all 4 races at once, having banshees and praetorians fighting you at the same time on wave 1... Yeah, not enjoyable. The only one I've ended up succeeding at was 4 people hiding in a cargo container shooting through a wall.
4000pts 