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So I've been playing non-stop for a week or two after taking a bit of a break from the game side of the hobby to paint some stuff up.

Wanted to run this list through the grinder to get some feedback. Tell me what you think.

Chaos Space Marine Codex:
Chaos Terminator Sorcerer 85
Mastery 1

CSMs(15 models) 240
Veterans of the Long War
2x Meltaguns

CSMs(15 models) 250
Veterans of the Long War
2x Meltaguns
Champion takes Combi-melta
CSMs(15 models) 250
Veterans of the Long War
2x Meltaguns
Champion takes Combi-melta

Heldrake w/baleflamer 170
Heldrake w/baleflamer 170
Heldrake w/baleflamer 170

Havocs (5 models) 155
4x Lascannons
Havocs (5 models) 115
4x Heavy Bolters

Bastion 75

Karanak 120

Bloodletters 200

The thought here is Karanak gives the Bloodletters rage, scout, and 4+ Deny the witch. This group hunts enemy psykers, or charges anything attempting to threaten other troops or the bastion at close range.

The Havocs will both be in the bastion, Lascannons on the top, Heavy Bolters in the middle with the firepoints and heavy bolter emplacement. The sorcerer will hang out with the HB havocs to give them a better armor save against glances and pens against the bastion. Preventing my loss of shots from that squad. Lascannons up top are less important because of the Marine blobs with Meltaguns. But will give me some great long range firepower. (I love me some lascannons)

Heldrakes are Heldrakes, they do what they do best.

This gives me 55 marines, 1 terminator and 21 daemons on the table. With three Drakes in the air to deal with any issues that may arise.

Thoughts on how to improve?

Depends what you are trying to achieve with the list and whether it is tailored or generic.

I would switch the CSMs for either cultists, plague marines or noise marines if I wanted the list to be more competitive. I don't really like taking CSMs, though you do have a good gun loadout on them.

Another thing is most of your army is quite immobile and you said that one of the squad will hunt enemy psykers. Will they be able to do that on there own or will they need some backup?

The idea on the Letters is they can scout with Karanak, so they get a bit of movement before the game starts, They have no shooting weapons, so they'll be running every turn.

I figure the fire of the drakes will be enough to let them charge across the field and get to wherever the backfield psykers may be.

I prefer to go second so I can tailor my deployment to my opponent's. I do not like cultists, And while I like plague marines, I figured the higher body count would be better here. I could be wrong though... let me see what the list would look like with PMs

I quite like the list actually, very different approach.

My only suggestion would be to make one blob the max (20 I believe) and make sure the sorc is lvl 3. This will give you a fairly good chance to roll invisibility on that large squad which turns it from frightening to neigh unkillable.

I really like the unmarked CSM approach. 3 x 15 strong CSM squads is a tough scoring element! Do you plan on giving them bolters or bp + ccw?

3 Helldrakes would be considered over-doing it at my group, but it certainly is competitive..

I'd swap the heavy bolters for autcannons in your Havoc unit.

That is a lot of power armour...

Think about swapping the HBs for ACs in the havocs.

This list should do alright, just keep an eye for the random anti-flyer list someone always brings.

Now that you guys mention it, yes, the Autocannons would work well. If anything is in the 36" range that's worth shooting I will still have a good amount of bullets, but still have the range if there isn't anything worth shooting in range. Thanks.

And yeah, 3 drakes is definitely hard to deal with, but I do it because *almost* everyone brings a quadgun in their army. (one guy DFOs and brings 2) So I figure if they're going to bring down a drake or two, why not bring 3.

And to answer your question...

I really like the unmarked CSM approach. 3 x 15 strong CSM squads is a tough scoring element! Do you plan on giving them bolters or bp + ccw?

Bolters, it's all about weight of fire in my mind with this list. I have other lists that are much more fighty. This was intended to be a shooty list.

Omg, do you mind if i borrowed this?
I have blood letters too. I plan to down grade all my khorne berserkers to csm.

Double Force Organization chart to get 2 quad guns? Would that be 100pts +100pts for 8 skyfire autocannon shots? or is it 100pts for the first and then 50pts for the 2nd? If that is so then I am converting my 2 defilers into Quad guns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

westiebestie wrote:
I really like the unmarked CSM approach. 3 x 15 strong CSM squads is a tough scoring element! Do you plan on giving them bolters or bp + ccw?

3 Helldrakes would be considered over-doing it at my group, but it certainly is competitive..

I'd swap the heavy bolters for autcannons in your Havoc unit.

3x15 marines are strong? I must be doing something very wrong because I tried using full 20 men squads and they still die too quick.

Eboncrow wrote:
Now that you guys mention it, yes, the Autocannons would work well. If anything is in the 36" range that's worth shooting I will still have a good amount of bullets, but still have

I really like the unmarked CSM approach. 3 x 15 strong CSM squads is a tough scoring element! Do you plan on giving them bolters or bp + ccw?

Bolters, it's all about weight of fire in my mind with this list. I have other lists that are much more fighty. This was intended to be a shooty list.

Sounds good to me, hoped you would do that. I thnk your list is really cool. Let us know how it goes!

 Filch wrote:
Omg, do you mind if i borrowed this?

westiebestie wrote:
I really like the unmarked CSM approach. 3 x 15 strong CSM squads is a tough scoring element! Do you plan on giving them bolters or bp + ccw?

3 Helldrakes would be considered over-doing it at my group, but it certainly is competitive..

I'd swap the heavy bolters for autcannons in your Havoc unit.

3x15 marines are strong? I must be doing something very wrong because I tried using full 20 men squads and they still die too quick.

Yes, compared with the "usual" approach of cult marine squads, say 3 x 7 plague marines or 4 x 5 / 2 x 10 noise marines I'd say 3x 15 CSM with VoTLW seems a lot more bodies! I'd like to try it but I couldn't see myself painting that many ordinary marines..

mass regular marines works exceptionally well for me. I also run 45 of them. You just have to be careful about ap3 shooting but with VotLW and just bolters you have tons of anti infantry. and a hefty scoring base. I find that if you present other threatening targets for your opponent to deal with the marines get ignored long enough to become a real threat themselves. takes quite a few shots to knock down 45 power armour guys. Obviously some lists are a real b*tch to deal with but you just have to adjust tactics. Cult marines while effective just don't put enough bodies on the table for a foot list imho. Plague marines are almost twice the price as a normal CSM that will still die to volume of fire. If FnP was still 4+ id go with them for sure but in 6th my normal CSM lists dominate my cult lists for results. Really just depends on how you like to play!

Played a 1500 pt game against orks today.

Same list minus the drakes and allies. Put a defiler in just for kicks. (I love my soulgrinder model)

Won 10-5, I held 3 objectives and he had one. He had Slay the Warlord and First blood, I also had Slay the Warlord.

the Marines tore through orks like nobody's business. Didn't lose more than 4 per squad until turn 4 when he piled alot of loota fire and another group's shooting into one group. That group then failed a morale check and was able to flee out of charge range (yay!) Other than that, both of his trukks blew up first turn. One to my lascannons, the other to the Autocannons (good ideas are good, thanks to all who recommended) And I was able to blast and shoot my way through plenty of orks. Last turn I just had to get 2 orks off an objective and it was victory for me.

I'm going to try the following list this week when I can get another game in. I'm loving the unmarked marines... and want to give them something to run behind that would *definitely* take the enemy's eyes off of them.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Changed my mind. (I'm allowed to do that right?)

Here's a death star unit that I've run in the past and had literally tons of success with.

Chaos Lord 180
Mark of Khorne
Juggernaut of Khorne
Axe of Blind Fury
Sigil of Corruption
Gift of Mutation

Chaos Sorcerer 170
Mastery 3
Chaos Bike
Spell Familiar
Sigil of Corruption

CSMs (15 models) 250
2x Meltaguns
Champion takes Combi-melta
Veterans of the Long War

CSMs (15 models) 250
2x Meltaguns
Champion takes Combi-melta
Veterans of the Long War

CSMs (15 models) 250
2x Meltaguns
Champion takes Combi-melta
Veterans of the Long War

CSMs (15 models) 250
2x Meltaguns
Champion takes Combi-melta
Veterans of the Long War

Chaos Bikers (10 models) 305
Mark of Khorne
2x Meltaguns
Icon of Wrath
Champion takes Lightning Claw

Havocs w/4x Lascannons 155
Havocs w/4x Autocannons 115

Bastion 75

So. The plan for the Sorcerer is to either get Invisibility from telepathy, or Endurance from Biomancy. either or both is wonderful as it makes the bikers ridiculously tough. (2+ jink while out in the open, or adding FNP and the sorc/lord get It will not die!) I generally take the primaris from telepathy if I get a crappy roll. It can be fun.

The lord and bikers become the counter-charge unit. I'm going up against a person who plays two sets of 15 flesh hounds of khorne, one with skulltaker on a juggernaut, the other with karanak. Tough to survive through, but between the rapid-fire TL bolters on overwatch, and any self-buffs I can get. (dropping Skulltaker to WS 1 for the challenge against my lord would be hilarious!) (part of the invisibility rule) I could easily make him wipe himself off the board with instability tests. fun! Definitely going to try this one. going to get my bikers fleshed out 100% also.

fun stuff. yes?

Eboncrow wrote:
So I've been playing non-stop for a week or two after taking a bit of a break from the game side of the hobby to paint some stuff up.

Wanted to run this list through the grinder to get some feedback. Tell me what you think.

Hummm... I thought Sorcs had to take a Mark. I guess they do not. I will have to keep that in mind.

no worries yeah I've been doing this for some time. It's all about the rule for marks not including a restriction for unmarked models

just models of a different mark.

my only issue is the range of the melta guns for the static units. personally i would try and fit plasma guns in instead, but thats a personal preference.

Not bad at all, wish I had two more helldrakes to try something like this lol

oh I'm totally with you on the range, but I don't like the thought of having the chance of killing myself and not insta-killing the enemy's T4 W2 models.

I may try it a time or two to test the waters.

Good game against the orks! Good also to hear about the success of the unmarked marines.

How many points is your new list, still 2k? Seeing as you have dropped from 3 helldrakes to 0.

yeah, dropped the drakes for now. I only have one anyway and was proxying the other two with cardboard cutouts of their base size ... lol

and yes, still 2k. Dropping the drakes let me add in a 4th group of marines, and bring my biker deathstar back. I've had great success with it in the past, so I'm gonna see how it works with the unmarked marines as backup.

If it works anywhere near as well as I think it might... I may have found a list I can stick with for a while

Eboncrow wrote:
no worries yeah I've been doing this for some time. It's all about the rule for marks not including a restriction for unmarked models

just models of a different mark.

I am torn on unmarked Sorcs because I hate having to 'waste' a roll on the God list (Nurgle/Tzeentch/Slannesh) and then going into Biomancy for 2 rolls when I can now have 3 rolls. But I actually /really/ like having my Sorc with my Lord on a bike-star with a naked Champ to give me plenty of options for challenges. Since I run EC, I just hope I get the Slannesh Buff power and 1-2 buff powers from Biomancy. Because of how I run him, the Init can come in handy for challenges and for the IoE I throw on the bikes.

What table/power/discipline set do you roll on and how do you use your sorc?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh...is the Spell Familure really worth it? Thing has been a dog for me so I see it as a waste....

Well, There is no rule stating that an unmarked model cannot join a group with a mark. It just says that a marked model cannot join a unit with a different mark. So an unmarked sorcerer can join whatever group he pleases.

With my bikers, I normally roll on Telepathy, the primaris is nice if you get one of the crappy spells. (bad leadership rolls can wipe units) Invisibility with bikers is absolutely over-the-top overpowered. Think of it this way. You shoot my bikers, they get 2+ cover. 5+ from jink +3 from stealth and shrouded gives them the glorious 2+. Now you charge them. You are WS1. You're hitting them on 5s and 6s. Their durability literally just tripled with one spell. and with 3 rolls, it's a 50/50 chance of getting it. If you get it on your first or second roll, you can still take a shot at iron arm or endurance from the biomancy tree.

I was incredibly lucky one game and got both invisibility and endurance. Now we're talking Power-armored T5 marines with 2+ cover that send their opponents to WS1 and Feel no Pain. And the Sorcerer and the Lord both got It will not Die! from it.

The spell familiar is worth it in my opinion because I hate to watch my sorcerer die to perils. And I don't want to feel like I can't cast his psychic abilities because he's already taken a wound. There are some games where it doesn't come into play. but there are others where it saves him from perils or just failed spells.

Then there's the time I rolled while casting iron arm, Then rolled on the reroll from the familiar. At least the spell went off! .....

While I do like your second list (4 x 15 CSM + hardcore biker deathstar) as well, I feel your amended first list was a lot more special. I also feel your first list would woop ass with your second list..

How could list # 2 kill 3 Hell drakes?

True, I don't have much if anything that could take down the drakes in the second list. I'd be relying on the one shot I'd get with the lascannons before they'd get burned out, then the autocannons to hopefully glance them to death. (very unlikely I know) Perhaps I should drop one group of marines and a biker or two and get back to having 2 drakes?

Something along this line?

Chaos Lord 170
Mark of Khorne
Juggernaut of Khorne
Axe of Blind Fury
Sigil of Corruption

Chaos Sorcerer 170
Mastery 3
Chaos Bike
Spell Familiar
Sigil of Corruption

CSMs (15 models) 250
2x Meltaguns
Champion takes Combi-melta
Veterans of the Long War

CSMs (15 models) 250
2x Meltaguns
Champion takes Combi-melta
Veterans of the Long War

CSMs (15 models) 250
2x Meltaguns
Champion takes Combi-melta
Veterans of the Long War

Chaos Bikers (7 models) 224
Mark of Khorne
2x Meltaguns
Icon of Wrath
Champion takes:
Lightning Claw
Meltabombs

Heldrakew/Baleflamer 170
Heldrakew/Baleflamer 170

Havocs w/4x Lascannons 155
Havocs w/4x Autocannons 115

Bastion 75

I think your new list is the best of all the ones so far. Taken the best from each one. Now you have
a) strong scoring
b) strong firebase
c) strong and hard to kill close combat death star
and
d) strong and lethal flying element.

I'd say play that list and conquer.

Here's Hoping!

Got a couple games this afternoon, will come back with battle reports.

Necrons and/or Space Wolves are my opponents.

I dont envy your opponents, a friend of mine brings 3 heldrakes every game, and i hated him for it, he would kill my necrons by the squads..

forced me to go out and buy some grey knights initially as allies, now full time, 2+ saves for everything its the only way

2+ saves? Lascannon targets :p

One tweak you COULD do is to swap marks and banner on your Lord + bikers to Slaanesh + Icon of Excess. Then you always get FnP, and don't have to get the power for your sorceror.

You loose the chance of your deathstar getting a 2+ jink save, but instead you could swap your sorceror straight up for a nasty third Helldrake..