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Alright, so I've made my head hurt on this one, and I want to toss it out here for y'all to try and settle for me.

So gonna start of with a couple of lines of text from our friends at GW:

A model with a Nemesis Greatsword re-rolls failed To Hit,To Wound and armour penetration rolls in close combat.

Codex Grey Knights, pg 54 Nemesis Greatsword

If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows - he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons."

The Good Book, pg 51 More Than One Weapon

Now here's the thing, the description for the Nemesis Greatsword never actually talks about using it to attack. So, we wind up with someone giving us this:

Q: Does a Nemesis Dreadknight armed with a Nemesis greatsword have 4 Attacks at Strength 10 that, because of the Nemesis greatsword, can re- roll To Hit, To Wound and Armour Penetration rolls?(p54)
A: Yes.

Grey Knights FAQ v 1.3 pg 5

Now I think the above ruling is flagrantly counter to the rules as intended and quite silly, but I cannot fault its literal interpretation of the rules.

Which then brought me to the Wolf Claw.

A Wolf Claw is a lightning claw that allows the wielder to either re-roll his To Hit rolls or re-roll his To Wound rolls.

Codex Space Wolves, pg 60 Wolf Claws

I read that, and I thought, wait a minute, if just having a Nemesis Greatsword but not attacking with it is enough to grant it's abilities, then what about the Wolf Claws abilities? They are not specified to be tied to attacks made with the weapon, just attacks made by the wielder. So a model with a Wolf Claw and a Powerfist could conceivably re-roll To Hit rolls with the Power Fist. Other than it being obviously silly and not what the designers intended, I can't find any real fault with it because of what happened with the Nemesis Greatsword above.

Along the way, I also made another discovery in the exact same text quote above. Back in 5th edition, the ability of having a lightning claw was to have a power weapon that let you re-roll wounds. But now the lightning claw has a specific profile including the special rule of Shred. Nothing in that statement alters the special rules of the weapon, it just says if you are using the weapon you have two types of re-rolls to choose from.

Again I think this is silly and the space wolves FAQ does clearly state that a model with two wolf claws can't use one to select the re-roll To Wounds and the other to re-roll To Hits, but again that ruling predated the Shred rule being applied to lightning claws.

I'm sure both of these cases shouldn't apply, but I also feel the same about the Nemesis Greatsword's abilities. So what do you think? Has the Nemesis Greatsword ruling opened up precedent for some nasty abuse of the Wolf Claw or am I just too tired and sleep deprived to see the forest for the trees on this one?




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Please, I want to be wrong about this, I think it's stupid that it'd work like this but I can't think of a good reason based on the wording and the precedent that it doesn't.

The only answer i can give you is that you "must choose which one to attack with" unless the codex (and/or a FAQ) says otherwise.

The greatsword has just such a clarification. The space-wolves lightning claw (wolf-claw) on the other hand does not.

That said it is pretty ambiguous, so i can easily see pages and pages of nonconclusive debate happening if you post it as a topic in it's own right rather than tying it together with a completely unrelated item of wargear that has already been clarified.

"If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows - he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons"

Here is your answer. If you don't have specific permission to over-rule this line then you can only do as the restriction allows. It says abilities that's special rules and it's combat profile.

The reason the Greatsword effects attacks made with the DCCW is because it says "a model with" and not "the wielder"

If you need to wield the weapon, that means you are making attacks with it. The Greatsword's text simply require you to have it, you are not required to make your attacks with it.

However, the wording on the two weapons doesn't actually say that you have to attack with the weapons to gain their abilities. The Nemesis Greatsword gives the ability to "the model with the weapon" while the Wolf Claw gives it to the "wielder". Nothing indicating the weapon actually has to be used to attack. Weilding can mean the model uses the weapon to help block blows as much as attack.

It would be nice if GW took a momment to actually give each weapon a proper statline and text congruent with the new rules - but we'll have to buy new codexes for that.

No, wielder specifically requires you to attack with the weapon. The wording on the greatsword only requires you to have it. Its always on so to speak.

And anyway, GW FAQ'd that it works that way so it works that way.

For what it's worth they have been fairly consistent with applying the 'one weapon only' rule to any weapons which indicate they provide a benefit to the wielder or bearer rather than the unusual way the nemesis greatsword is worded.

The Dark Eldar codex especially has several FAQ notations indicating that only one weapons' properties apply at a time whose writeups contain that exact verbiage.

Come to think of it the Grey knight greatsword is the only exception i can think of to that rule; every other case of ambiguity in dual weilding properties that i can recall at the moment goes the way of the wolf-claw et, all.

Wield = Use, not attack.

A model with a storm shield and a thunder hammer is wielding both in combat, though it only attacks with one.

 Neorealist wrote:
For what it's worth they have been fairly consistent with applying the 'one weapon only' rule to any weapons which indicate they provide a benefit to the wielder or bearer rather than the unusual way the nemesis greatsword is worded.

The Dark Eldar codex especially has several FAQ notations indicating that only one weapons' properties apply at a time whose writeups contain that exact verbiage.

Come to think of it the Grey knight greatsword is the only exception i can think of to that rule; every other case of ambiguity in dual weilding properties that i can recall at the moment goes the way of the wolf-claw et, all.

Tyranid Close Combat Weapons. You could (theoretically) have 7 different close combat weapons. You attack as normal, and you get all the bonuses.

Tyranid CCWs arn't actual CCWs. They're unique.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Tyranid CCWs arn't actual CCWs. They're unique.

Page 33 (Tyranid Close Combat Weapons) and page 83 (Close Combat Weapons) would appear to disagree with you. They are called out as Close Combat Weapons.

Ah, those wacky tyrannids. I'm going to have to plead nigh-complete ignorance of the contents of that codex.

That FAQ is stupid.

 Crimson wrote:
That FAQ is stupid.

Not really.

The Greatsword says "a model with a Nemesis Greatsword..." therefore just having it confers the benefits.

BTW if you check the verbiage in Specialist Weapon it seems that GW equates 'weild' to 'fighting with' not attacking.

The Nemesis Greatsword ruling is an exception to the rules, there are other rulings which rule in the other direction and support the RAW, so the Nemesis Greatsword can't really be used to establish some sort of precedent.

In lieu of any special exception granted on other weapons, they cannot offer benefits while the character is fighting with something else as per the core rules.

Basically, nothing else in the Game works like a Nemesis Greatsword until GW tell us otherwise.

Regarding the re-rolls nothing has changed there, the wolf claw rules lets you re-roll one or the other, not both, if you are re-rolling wounds, be it through the wolf claw rule or Shred then, as per the wolf claw rule you cannot re-roll to hit, similarly, if you have re-rolled to hit, the wolf claw rule specifically prevents you from re-rolling to wound by it's either/or wording.

I'm not understanding the question. Why would a weapons ability activate when you are not using the weapon? It's 2 handed too, so are you saying that if I take a power fist and lightning claw I can have rerolls on my power fist?

As i understand it, the OP is trying to equate this:
"Q: Can a model with two Wolf Claws choose to re-roll To Hit with one and To Wound with the other? (p60)
A: No. "
with this:
"Q: Does a Nemesis Dreadknight armed with a Nemesis greatsword have 4 Attacks at Strength 10 that, because of the Nemesis greatsword, can re- roll To Hit, To Wound and Armour Penetration rolls?(p54)
A: Yes."

due to the fact that the wolf claw "...allows the wielder to..." benefit from it's effect whereas the greatsword states "... a model with..." benefits from it's effect.

The are both differently worded and have two more or less opposite meanings based on the respective FAQs for both; but somehow this seems 'stupid that it works this way' to the OP i guess?

In any event: the RAW for both of them is pretty clear, so i suspect this discussion has wandered from that.

Actually my post has nothing to do with the 2 Wolf Claw question.

Its does the wielder of a wolf claw get to choose to either re-roll rols To Hit or rolls To Wound when wielding the Wolf Claw.

The answer is of course yes, but the question is, what is wielding?

The wording of the Specialist Weapon rule seems to equate wielding two weapons with fighting with two weapons.

Of course even when fighting with two weapons you only get to attack with one or the other. But as evidenced by the precedent of the Nemesis Greatsword and the Storm Sheild, you can gain the benefits of certain weapons that you are wielding, even if you are not attacking with them.

Except the wording between the Greatsword is way different from every other weapon.

And a Stormshield isn't even a weapon. Its a piece of wargear that gives a 3++ and prohibits you from gaining the bonus for fighting with 2 weapons. It is NOT a weapon.

Jefffar wrote:
Of course even when fighting with two weapons you only get to attack with one or the other. But as evidenced by the precedent of the Nemesis Greatsword and the Storm Sheild, you can gain the benefits of certain weapons that you are wielding, even if you are not attacking with them.

The Storm Shield isn't a weapon so isn't limited by rules applying to weapons, even if you can argue it is "wielded".

The Nemesis Greatsword, as I mentioned, is insufficient to form any precedent so long as there are other rulings on similar weapons which rule contrary to it, and there are.

Further, there's no reason to attempt to apply tangentially related FAQ precedents when we have clear rulings for the situation provided by the rules, we don't take the FAQ ruling that you cannot use Eldar Psychic Powers inside a transport and apply that to all Psychic powers because we have clear rules in the main rulebook for how to handle that situation. Similarly, you don't turn to the Grey Knights FAQ to figure out how Space Wolves work when it is covered by the core rules, and it is, they say you cannot gain the benefits of two close combat weapons at the same time.