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In the previous Daemons codex, the troop breakdown was relatively simple. Plaguebearers were popular because they were extremely tough and cheap scoring units. Horrors were occasionally taken in order to add a Changeling and some Bolts to battle a mech heavy world. Daemonettes were decent for a time, but became ultimately too overcosted. Bloodletters always suffered from a lack of speed and grenades, and thus were overshadowed by the better units in the codex.

Flash forward to the new book. The initial reaction seems to be that the cheaper troop choices mean that Daemon armies will now spam hoards of troops. After all, 6th is shaping up to be the edition of "boots on the ground."

However, I tend to think that once the dust settles, the Daemon troop options are going to look very similar to the old dex. Let's take a look:

Bloodletters- they are cheaper, and they do eat MEQ. However, they are still slow, have no grenades, no shooting, and are about as survivable as a Guardsmen despite costing twice as much. Adding in the banner and character upgrades make the unit is no longer "cheap."

Daemonettes- these actually might work, though they have limitations. Fleet, the run bonus, and rending are nice rules. However, they no longer have grenades. Again, they are twice the cost of a Guardsmen, cannot shoot, and have to deal with the new disadvantages of overwatch.

Horrors- while they can pump out a ton of shots, there are just so many hoops that they must jump through. Deny the witch is particularly bad as well. Giving out FNP is also a downside.

Plaguebearers- cheap and survivable. They can also take on the random tank in this edition. Though they will die easily in CC, and their cover bonus won't help versus the mass of templates out there, Plaguebearers still seem to be the go-to option for Daemon troops. They are specialized, but they specialize in doing what troops have to do--taking objectives.

At the end of the day, players who want assault units (most Daemon units really) are better served loading up on beast and cavalry threats. Flesh Hounds, Seekers, Crushers, Fiends, and even Screamers are better options than maxing out units like Bloodletters and Daemonettes. If you want shooting units, allies are far superior than Horrors. I still believe that Plaguebearers will be the troops we see, and am looking forward to watching how competitive Daemon lists shape up over the coming months.

Daemonettes seem to compliment Flesh hounds pretty well IMO, as they help out against the stuff that Hounds struggle against: mass MEQ or TEQ.

I also see Skarbrand as a pretty viable choice, as with Flesh hounds and deep striking him you can usually tie up a lot of the things that would shoot him, and Daemonettes are really pretty ridiculous with Skarbrand's buffs: 10 'nettes will average around 8 MEQ dead on the charge, which is friggin scary for a 90pt unit which moves pretty fast too.

Though I would agree with you that Letters are pretty bad and Horrors seem like they'll just derp at inopportune times. if you can cover your backfield scoring via allies, I'd see Daemonettes as a viable option, as with Daemons being such a glass hammer army you really need threat saturation to get your guys into CC and actually kill stuff instead of your army falling apart because you only have a couple of threats that get to shot to bits immediately.

In the old codex, daemon troops were the worst thing in the codex. This is why you saw so many people bringing minimum squads of troops for their daemons, and often allying in troops from other armies.

You are correct in that they fill the same basic roles, but the cost reduction has made them go from 'bad' to 'good'. If C:SM TH/SS termies were 55 points each, noone would take them. What makes them so good is that they are cheap. In a similar way the daemons have changed.

BloodLetters
These still suffer from the same drawback in the last codex -- they don't have gernades. They now cost 62.5% of what they did previously, which means you can bring more of them. While they do have half the attacks and 1 less toughness, the price reduction more than makes up for it.

There is a concept called Resilience-Per-Point that applies here. 10 old bloodletters cost 160 points, and it took 45 MEQ bolter shots to kill all 10. For 160 points you can buy 16 new bloodletters and it takes 54 MEQ bolter shots to kill them. While each bloodletter got weaker, the per-point value you spend on them got better!

Bloodletters also now bring more attacks on the charge per-point than they did. 16 bloodletters has 32 attacks on the charge, where the old ones had 30. After the charge, the old bloodletters pull ahead. That is a very minor issue however, because any MEQ that the bloodletters touch will evaporate after one round of combat!

Daemonettes
In a similar way, daemonettes now cost 64.2% of their previous value. Unlike bloodletters, they did not get that much easier to kill, so their RPP values actually have gotten a lot better.
They have less attacks per model, but they still have more attacks per point.

Horrors
Previously horror had expensive shooting. Now to bring 3d6 STR 5 shots, you need to spend 99 points. Previously you would spend 51 points.
The new horrors have a much higher RPP through volume of bodies, and they don't lose as much firepower per wound as the old horrors did. Another advantage the new horrors have is that they can be buffed to STR 6 with a herald instead of being at STR 4. This means that can wreck small vehicles with much greater ease than before. 21 prescience STR 6 shots will wreck AV 10/11 much better than 1 STR 8 shot.
Against MEQ and GEQ the new horrors have slightly less dakka per point than the old ones.

Plague Bearers
These are now better in every way. They can threaten a land raider that gets close, they are much more resistant to shooting, and they are 60% as expensive as before. These guys are pure win for objective holding.

The troops may have gotten better relative to their previous incarnations but I would hardly call 9 PT models that are incredibly 1 dimensional and fairly fragile, good. Better, sure, but still far from good. I don't think the better Daemon lists will end up pumping heavy points into the troops. 20-man squads of T3 gribblies will get obliterated in today's anti-infantry "meta".

I think it would be much wiser to take 6 minimum-sized squads and then load up on Seekers, Fleshhounds, Fiends, etc.

Horrors seem good but the problem is that they have a few decent counters. Nids and GK can DTW on a 5+ with many of their units. SW can shut down the shooting, Eldar make it laughable to even attempt. I'd definitely stray from relying on Horrors.

Daemonettes seem okay but they are still relatively slow and the lack of grenades is really bad.

Daemon troops aren't even close to being capable of a true horde. Ork Boyz and Guardsmen outclass them in every way because they are more resilient for their costs and can shoot. If the Daemon troops had more flexibility, I'd agree that they were good, but they are way too one-dimensional and unfortunately they are good in the dimension that is less important in the game (assault).

I think Daemon deep strikes will be potent, and with that Daemonettes and Bloodletters will shine. It'll be easy to get 90% of your units in on turn 2, and between icons and Slaaneshi crazy run movement, you'll be able to get units in good positions and hopefully limit next turn shooting. Telepathy powers can also help gum up the works for your opponent.

Don't forget the skull cannon it will really help your blood letters and deamonettes lack of grenades. If you want your troops assaulting stuff I imagine these will be key. Just have to keep em alive or have them arrive the same turn you plan to charge.

LValx wrote:
Daemon troops aren't even close to being capable of a true horde. Ork Boyz and Guardsmen outclass them in every way because they are more resilient for their costs and can shoot.

I think your math is off. First of all, your IG blob does not cost 5 points per model. If you run 50 naked guardsmen they will be driven right off the table. To make a reasonable 50 man blob will cost you 400 points, which is 8 points per model. That gives you 5 autocannons, 2 MGs, and 3 flamers, and 1 commissar. Remember your also buying the PCS squad tax. This does not even include the overhead tax for a MEQ IC.
Daemons are force multipled by heralds, but can work fine without upgrades. Orks also require little or no upgrades to function successfully.

So what are the RPP values for those units?
Letter.................33.74994938
Daemonette........37.49994375
Horror.................37.49994375
PlagueBearer....199.99986
Guardsman........28.12497188
Ork.....................49.999975
Here the plague bearers stand out, but that's because their main role is to just squat on objectives.
For units with offensive capabilities, the orks stand ahead of the pack. Naked IG are at a 44 RPP, but as mentioned you will never run 50 naked guard.

When you turn a heavy bolter on them, the numbers change.
Letter.................26.99997408
Daemonette.......29.9999712
Horror................29.9999712
PlagueBearer.....119.9999208
Guardsman........22.4999999
Ork.....................37.500002
As before, the plague bearer is stupidly good. You will see though the other numbers get much closer. The bare ork is not all that much better. When your looking at lascannons, all the numbers are identical, save for the ork whose RPP drops to 29.99999. That's acceptable as your not often shot with tons of plasma/melta/LCs. You can, however, expect to see lots of heavy bolters in a build where an IG player brings 3 lemun russ punishers, or someone brings lots of strike squads with psybolt ammo.

These are the numbers when your shot at by cron' air.
When you turn a heavy bolter on them, the numbers change.
Letter.................26.99997408
Daemonette.......29.9999712
Horror................29.9999712
PlagueBearer.....119.9999208
Guardsman........33.74997
Ork.....................35.9999998
The guard pull slightly ahead of the daemons because they get their 5+ save from tesla destructors.

Now your might ask, why would you ever bring any of those (except plague bearers) when you can bring grey hunters who are sporting an RPP value of 60 to bolters. The answer can be summed up in one word -- helldrakes. Helldrakes have crippled the 3+ save armies. A GH's RPP value against a helldrake breath is 8! The daemonette is still at a 19.999. An orks RPP to helldrakes is 20.
So in today's meta, your going to see armies that are more vulnerable to bolters to make up for resistance to helldrakes.


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pepe5454 wrote:
Don't forget the skull cannon it will really help your blood letters and deamonettes lack of grenades. If you want your troops assaulting stuff I imagine these will be key. Just have to keep em alive or have them arrive the same turn you plan to charge.

This. Your can expect to see 1-2 skull cannons in every list. Given how the models are fairly small, they will be easy to hide until your in assault. You might also want to just keep them in reserve so they come in turn 2.

No one runs nude blobs? I guess Mike Brandt, Kopach, Andrew Gonyo are all nobodies.. They all run nude blobs. A nude blob is the best because it is cheap and efficient. Run a few axes, attach an IC and take a weapon or two with longer range than lasguns so you can allocate wounds further. A 50 man blob without characters should cost around 300 points. Now you re-do the math. The Blob is more versatile and more resilient.

Heldrakes are bad news and definitely have made MEQ on foot less desirable, but a good player can mitigate the damage they do. If you spread out in the correct formation you can make it so they can only hit 3 at a time. GK/SM/BA can all take a SR and a Vendetta to protect themselves, so it isn't all gloom and doom, it simply requires players to alter their list building. I've been testing GK/IG with 1 SR/1 Vendetta and it has done fine vs double and triple Heldrakes.

The other problem is that triple Drakes has plenty of other weaknesses, while you are sure to see them at times, I think most players will settle on 1-2 because 3 ends up detracting too much from ground forces. Look at Indy/BAO, the Drake heavy lists didnt actually do that well, but some lists supplementing with Drakes did. It's a good tool but not worth investing huge amounts of points in because it wont be as efficient vs xenos players. The Heldrakes also have a to watch out for matchups vs triple Vendettas or lists that spam outrageous numbers of Scythes.

I agree with a lot of your points but it I think it is damn near undeniable that the Daemon troop choices pale in comparison to IG/Orks, which I would consider the most efficient troops currently.

I think the fact that the troops only excel in one phase makes them pretty poor choices in a TAC environment. That isn't to say that I don't think an army can make good use of bigger squads, I simply believe that the best Daemon lists we will be seeing will invest points more heavily into the FA and Elites while running MSU-troops (remember, I am not the only one who feels this way. MVB, who is quite decent himself, found the same thing to be true)


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Ohh and for the record, i'd still rather have GH over any of those troop choices.

Lets not forget there are two sides of each lesser daemon unit now.

Low cost, stripped down units that basicly act as distraction and bullet magnets, or even cover save.

or

Herald boosted units with more diverse use and really dangerous, dirty fighting units in their special field, will cost you more than troops from the old dex though, due to the herald.

LValx wrote:
No one runs nude blobs? I guess Mike Brandt, Kopach, Andrew Gonyo are all nobodies.. They all run nude blobs. A nude blob is the best because it is cheap and efficient. Run a few axes, attach an IC and take a weapon or two with longer range than lasguns so you can allocate wounds further. A 50 man blob without characters should cost around 300 points. Now you re-do the math. The Blob is more versatile and more resilient. .

How many axes, how many long range guns. Don't they also add an IC to the bob? All those increase the price of the blob, don't they?

LValx wrote:
Heldrakes are bad news and definitely have made MEQ on foot less desirable, but a good player can mitigate the damage they do. If you spread out in the correct formation you can make it so they can only hit 3 at a time.

I don't suppose you can show me the formation to spread out so you can only be hit by 3 at a time? I'm honestly curious how you can do this.

 labmouse42 wrote:

LValx wrote:
No one runs nude blobs? I guess Mike Brandt, Kopach, Andrew Gonyo are all nobodies.. They all run nude blobs. A nude blob is the best because it is cheap and efficient. Run a few axes, attach an IC and take a weapon or two with longer range than lasguns so you can allocate wounds further. A 50 man blob without characters should cost around 300 points. Now you re-do the math. The Blob is more versatile and more resilient. .

How many axes, how many long range guns. Don't they also add an IC to the bob?

Gonyo runs 5 axes and a Commissar, but we arent going to count the IC in this, are we? Because then we may as well start counting things like Skull Cannons that end up buffing your units, correct? Kopach ran some axes and grenades, MVB runs plain with sniper rifles and some axes. I tend to run 50 man with 4 axes and 1 sniper rifle. These blobs excel because they are incredibly cheap add-ons to MEQ lists.

We are simply looking at the units. Guardsmen are both cheaper, more resilient and more versatile. I feel as though this is pretty obvious.


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Like that but with maxed out 2" coherency. Should usually result in 3, 4 tops. 2-4 dead, 15 PT marines a turn isn't the worst thing in the world. SW can add WG to help with a 2+ save and there are other things you can do to limit the effectiveness.

I'm not going to say Heldrakes aren't a ridiculous issue, but I don't think they completely invalidate MEQ armies.


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Ohh and PCS is hardly a tax. Its a cheap scoring unit. I would hardly include that in the cost. And you don't need an IC, you can simply take the cheap Commissar add on for 35, gives you stubborn LD9 with the ability to execute guys for rerolls. Still quite good.

LValx wrote:
Gonyo runs 5 axes and a Commissar, but we arent going to count the IC in this, are we? Because then we may as well start counting things like Skull Cannons that end up buffing your units, correct? Kopach ran some axes and grenades, MVB runs plain with sniper rifles and some axes. I tend to run 50 man with 4 axes and 1 sniper rifle. These blobs excel because they are incredibly cheap add-ons to MEQ lists.

We are simply looking at the units. Guardsmen are both cheaper, more resilient and more versatile. I feel as though this is pretty obvious.

I just broke out army builder and looked up the cost of your blob. The way you build it is 6.54 points per model. That is including the PCS tax. Do you do anything with your PCS? If your running a squad like that its RPP values go up.

I won't argue that guard are the better troop choices. My point was that they are not bad in RPP as one might initially think. This is due to the 5++ save they get.
Guard still are superior due due to their flexability and their ability to merge well with allies. If you were to put guard on a scale of 1 to 10, they would be a solid 9 - and excellent rating.
Daemons are around a 6.5. They are solid troop choices that buff well. I rate them over BA, CSM, DE, Eldar, Necrons, SoB, C:SM, Tau, and 'nids as troops. I would rate DA, GK, IG, SW as having as good or better troops than CD.
In the previous codex, they were around a 3 in comparison. They were among the worst in the game.

I also agree with you that your going to see fast moving assault daemon armies. You must be able to assault on turn two if your going to try an assault list. As such, I think we will see lots of builds with heavy investment into fast attack.

LValx wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

LValx wrote:
No one runs nude blobs? I guess Mike Brandt, Kopach, Andrew Gonyo are all nobodies.. They all run nude blobs. A nude blob is the best because it is cheap and efficient. Run a few axes, attach an IC and take a weapon or two with longer range than lasguns so you can allocate wounds further. A 50 man blob without characters should cost around 300 points. Now you re-do the math. The Blob is more versatile and more resilient. .

How many axes, how many long range guns. Don't they also add an IC to the bob?

Gonyo runs 5 axes and a Commissar, but we arent going to count the IC in this, are we? Because then we may as well start counting things like Skull Cannons that end up buffing your units, correct? Kopach ran some axes and grenades, MVB runs plain with sniper rifles and some axes. I tend to run 50 man with 4 axes and 1 sniper rifle. These blobs excel because they are incredibly cheap add-ons to MEQ lists.

We are simply looking at the units. Guardsmen are both cheaper, more resilient and more versatile. I feel as though this is pretty obvious.


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Like that but with maxed out 2" coherency. You gotta mess with it, if you have vassal, load a game and spread the 2" coherency and put a template over, its definitely possible to make it 3 per. Obviously that's tough to do in game, so 4 is most likely what you'll see. But 2-4 dead, 15 PT marines a turn isn't the worst thing in the world. SW can add WG to help with a 2+ save and there are other things you can do to limit the effectiveness.

I'm not going to say Heldrakes aren't a ridiculous issue, but I don't think they completely invalidate MEQ armies.


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Ohh and PCS is hardly a tax. Its a cheap scoring unit. I would hardly include that in the cost. And you don't need an IC, you can simply take the cheap Commissar add on for 35, gives you stubborn LD9 with the ability to execute guys for rerolls. Still quite good.

LValx wrote:
Ohh and PCS is hardly a tax. Its a cheap scoring unit. I would hardly include that in the cost. And you don't need an IC, you can simply take the cheap Commissar add on for 35, gives you stubborn LD9 with the ability to execute guys for rerolls. Still quite good.

You don't ever worry about the Commissar getting sniped out by a precision shot?

I would say Tervigons are better than anything CD get. I'd also say that Immortals, BSS and Cultists are better too.

Cultists fulfill a similar role as plaguebearers and I think they do it more efficiently. Aegis + Cultists is very, very good vs most armies because you can simply GTG for the 2+ save.


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 labmouse42 wrote:

LValx wrote:
Ohh and PCS is hardly a tax. Its a cheap scoring unit. I would hardly include that in the cost. And you don't need an IC, you can simply take the cheap Commissar add on for 35, gives you stubborn LD9 with the ability to execute guys for rerolls. Still quite good.

You don't ever worry about the Commissar getting sniped out by a precision shot?

I don't generally run the cheap Commissar.. I am simply pointing out that their are cheap options for LD buffs. I'd also not be incredibly worried about precision shots. Looking at most of the lists run competitively shows me that there aren't a particularly large amount of precision-shooting units I'd have to be worried about (Flyrants and Barrage would be the worst, but Barrages are incredibly inaccurate in my experience).

As I said, I think it's faulty to consider the PCS a tax and I also don't think you should necessarily factor the cost of an IC either. You don't NEED the IC, it simply takes them over the top.

I'd say CD troops are better than DE, Eldar, Tau, BA. I'd rather have troops from every other codex.

LValx wrote:
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Like that but with maxed out 2" coherency. Should usually result in 3, 4 tops. 2-4 dead, 15 PT marines a turn isn't the worst thing in the world. SW can add WG to help with a 2+ save and there are other things you can do to limit the effectiveness.

I'm not going to say Heldrakes aren't a ridiculous issue, but I don't think they completely invalidate MEQ armies.

I just tried it, and was able to get 4 under the template six different ways. Depending on if/how you vector struck the squad, that number can be lowered to 3, or even 2 if you went directly over the middle of the squad. That means that depending on the vector strike the squad can survive multiple rounds. Thanks for showing me that trick.

I have vassal open right now and I was able to get it to 3.


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Ohh, keep in mind vector is randomly allocated too. People often forget that.

LValx wrote:
Cultists fulfill a similar role as plaguebearers and I think they do it more efficiently. Aegis + Cultists is very, very good vs most armies because you can simply GTG for the 2+ save.

Your limited to only one aegis line, while you can have multiple pieces of area terrain. If your combo-ing the aegis with the cultists, should you not consider it part of the cost of the cultist squad?
Also, remember that at adepticon if you take an aegis you cannot have any objectives within 12" of it. Your cultists going to ground behind it won't be doing much good.

LValx wrote:
I'd say CD troops are better than DE, Eldar, Tau, BA. I'd rather have troops from every other codex.

Really? You would rather have C:SM tactical marines? You would rather have Immortals/Necron warriors? You would rather have SoB?

My biggest beef with these troops is honestly the lack of shooting. I also am not particularly impressed with the 5++ since cover is so easy to come by and cover is a 5+ standard and often a 4+ with the large amount of aegis lines we are seeing these days.

LValx wrote:
I have vassal open right now and I was able to get it to 3.

Ohh, keep in mind vector is randomly allocated too. People often forget that.

Don't vassal it. Pick up 10 models, a tape measure, and the flamer template. I just did it. If you like I can PM you some pics from my iphone. I'm lucky enough to work from home, so it was just a few steps for me to test it. Vassal is not perfect.
Excellent point on the vector strike. That means that its less of a chance to lose the ability to not hit all 4.


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LValx wrote:
My biggest beef with these troops is honestly the lack of shooting. I also am not particularly impressed with the 5++ since cover is so easy to come by and cover is a 5+ standard and often a 4+ with the large amount of aegis lines we are seeing these days.

I think that's the core of it right there. You think assault units need to be able to be in assault on turn 2 to be effective, and due to the lack of shooting you don't think they hold water. Is that pretty much the sum of it?

The Aegis fulfills more roles than simply offering my cultists the ability to GTG, in the case of CSM it gives me access to a Comms which makes my Flyers come in with near certainty on turn 2 and allows me to manipulate reserves for the rest of my cultists.

I'd DEF rather have BSS, Immortals and Tac Marines. Immortals with Tesla are sorely underrated. They have nice range and excel at midrange game, STR5 is pretty awesome as well. BSS are quite cost-effective and Tac Marines still have their place, being able to fail morale is nice and having access to a multitude of weapons is as well.


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 labmouse42 wrote:

LValx wrote:
I have vassal open right now and I was able to get it to 3.

Ohh, keep in mind vector is randomly allocated too. People often forget that.

Don't vassal it. Pick up 10 models, a tape measure, and the flamer template. I just did it. If you like I can PM you some pics from my iphone. I'm lucky enough to work from home, so it was just a few steps for me to test it. Vassal is not perfect.
Excellent point on the vector strike. That means that its less of a chance to lose the ability to not hit all 4.


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LValx wrote:
My biggest beef with these troops is honestly the lack of shooting. I also am not particularly impressed with the 5++ since cover is so easy to come by and cover is a 5+ standard and often a 4+ with the large amount of aegis lines we are seeing these days.

I think that's the core of it right there. You think assault units need to be able to be in assault on turn 2 to be effective, and due to the lack of shooting you don't think they hold water. Is that pretty much the sum of it?

Essentially, I also think relying on assault is a risky proposition. Assault is inherently more random in this edition than shooting. Between RCL, difficult terrain and overwatch there are quite a few variables that can really work against you. I also think an assault army should come stock with grenades, I think this is a HUGE weakness. I understand that it can be mitigated, but I think the units that mitigate it aren't terribly difficult to put down themselves. I'd like the units more if they were T4 stock. I think that would be very fair, T4 and grenades.

 labmouse42 wrote:

LValx wrote:
Cultists fulfill a similar role as plaguebearers and I think they do it more efficiently. Aegis + Cultists is very, very good vs most armies because you can simply GTG for the 2+ save.

Your limited to only one aegis line, while you can have multiple pieces of area terrain. If your combo-ing the aegis with the cultists, should you not consider it part of the cost of the cultist squad?
Also, remember that at adepticon if you take an aegis you cannot have any objectives within 12" of it. Your cultists going to ground behind it won't be doing much good.

This is off-topic, but is this what you're referring to?

"No objective can be placed within 6” of any battlefield edge, within 12” of another objective marker or in/on impassible terrain, buildings or fortifications."

I took that to mean:

-No objective can be placed within 6” of any battlefield edge
-No objective can be placed within 12” of another objective marker
-No objective can be placed in/on impassible terrain, buildings or fortifications

Or in other words, status quo from page 121 of the rulebook.

LValx wrote:
Essentially, I also think relying on assault is a risky proposition. Assault is inherently more random in this edition than shooting. Between RCL, difficult terrain and overwatch there are quite a few variables that can really work against you. I also think an assault army should come stock with grenades, I think this is a HUGE weakness. I understand that it can be mitigated, but I think the units that mitigate it aren't terribly difficult to put down themselves. I'd like the units more if they were T4 stock. I think that would be very fair, T4 and grenades.

Another problem I see with the "turn 2 assault" lists are the times you don't go first. This means your actually getting shot at for 2 turns instead of one. Some armies, like DE beast pack, assault lists can mitigate this by taking the Baron and Vect, CD just have to suck it up 50% of the time.

The other solution, of course is to reserve everything that assaults when facing shooty lists. To do this you need to bring a comm-relay. Units like seekers can not only outflank but move 20" a turn on average, meaning that even coming from reserve they can become an instant threat to nearly anything on the board.

This limits the CD player to take a few 'stable' units. Plague bearers are a perfect example of this. They wont go out and kill anything but they can squat on an objective better than anything else. If an enemy vehicle happens to get within 6" of them, you can glance it to death. Plauge bearers can take advantage of a 2+ cover save in any area terrain, which means you are not reliant upon ruins.

I also think your not giving horrors enough for their due. I have tried them out and they have quite a few nice perks. They require a 100 point herald to be really effective, but with that the unit can throw out 6d6 STR 6 hits. 4d6 will hit 75% of the time, and 2d6 will hit 89% of the time. I found them very good at shooting AV 10/11, flyers, etc.
Sticking horrors behind an aegis is actually pretty decent. The horrors reroll failed 1s, so their effective save goes to 58.3%. If they go to ground behind the aegis, their save goes to a 97%.

Another durable unit is the GUO behind an aegis. While behind the aegis it has a T7 and a 2+ cover save. While it won't be killing much at range, it won't be going anywhere. You can also use the grimonire on fateweaver, giving him a 2++ rerollable 8/9 of the time. This makes him nearly invulnerable to shooting, and he can do some decent damage at range. Even more importantly he can squat on an objective and contest it from your opponent. I've been considering adding the GUO to my plague marine army for a counter-assault unit. Plague marines have a RPP to bolters of 80, their incredibly resiliant to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gorgon wrote:
[This is off-topic, but is this what you're referring to?

"No objective can be placed within 6” of any battlefield edge, within 12” of another objective marker or in/on impassible terrain, buildings or fortifications."

I took that to mean:

-No objective can be placed within 6” of any battlefield edge
-No objective can be placed within 12” of another objective marker
-No objective can be placed in/on impassible terrain, buildings or fortifications

Or in other words, status quo from page 121 of the rulebook.

Look at the adepticon primer packet. Look at how objectives are placed.
"Place Primary Objective Markers: Starting with the player who chose table halves, players alternate placing objective markers as described in the mission (see Pre-deployment Addendumfor each mission). No objective can be placed within 6” of any battlefield edge, within 12” of another objective marker or in/on impassible terrain, buildings or fortifications."
If by chance your going to be playing at adepticion its a pretty important item. Don't expect to show up and put your objectives behind your aegis. It also really bones people who show up with a skyshield or a fortress of redemption. The footprint of the fortification will force the objectives into small areas.

 labmouse42 wrote:

LValx wrote:
Essentially, I also think relying on assault is a risky proposition. Assault is inherently more random in this edition than shooting. Between RCL, difficult terrain and overwatch there are quite a few variables that can really work against you. I also think an assault army should come stock with grenades, I think this is a HUGE weakness. I understand that it can be mitigated, but I think the units that mitigate it aren't terribly difficult to put down themselves. I'd like the units more if they were T4 stock. I think that would be very fair, T4 and grenades.

Another problem I see with the "turn 2 assault" lists are the times you don't go first. This means your actually getting shot at for 2 turns instead of one. Some armies, like DE beast pack, assault lists can mitigate this by taking the Baron and Vect, CD just have to suck it up 50% of the time.

The other solution, of course is to reserve everything that assaults when facing shooty lists. To do this you need to bring a comm-relay. Units like seekers can not only outflank but move 20" a turn on average, meaning that even coming from reserve they can become an instant threat to nearly anything on the board.

This limits the CD player to take a few 'stable' units. Plague bearers are a perfect example of this. They wont go out and kill anything but they can squat on an objective better than anything else. If an enemy vehicle happens to get within 6" of them, you can glance it to death. Plauge bearers can take advantage of a 2+ cover save in any area terrain, which means you are not reliant upon ruins.

I also think your not giving horrors enough for their due. I have tried them out and they have quite a few nice perks. They require a 100 point herald to be really effective, but with that the unit can throw out 6d6 STR 6 hits. 4d6 will hit 75% of the time, and 2d6 will hit 89% of the time. I found them very good at shooting AV 10/11, flyers, etc.
Sticking horrors behind an aegis is actually pretty decent. The horrors reroll failed 1s, so their effective save goes to 58.3%. If they go to ground behind the aegis, their save goes to a 97%.

Another durable unit is the GUO behind an aegis. While behind the aegis it has a T7 and a 2+ cover save. While it won't be killing much at range, it won't be going anywhere. You can also use the grimonire on fateweaver, giving him a 2++ rerollable 8/9 of the time. This makes him nearly invulnerable to shooting, and he can do some decent damage at range. Even more importantly he can squat on an objective and contest it from your opponent. I've been considering adding the GUO to my plague marine army for a counter-assault unit. Plague marines have a RPP to bolters of 80, their incredibly resiliant to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gorgon wrote:
[This is off-topic, but is this what you're referring to?

"No objective can be placed within 6” of any battlefield edge, within 12” of another objective marker or in/on impassible terrain, buildings or fortifications."

I took that to mean:

-No objective can be placed within 6” of any battlefield edge
-No objective can be placed within 12” of another objective marker
-No objective can be placed in/on impassible terrain, buildings or fortifications

Or in other words, status quo from page 121 of the rulebook.

Look at the adepticon primer packet. Look at how objectives are placed.
"Place Primary Objective Markers: Starting with the player who chose table halves, players alternate placing objective markers as described in the mission (see Pre-deployment Addendumfor each mission). No objective can be placed within 6” of any battlefield edge, within 12” of another objective marker or in/on impassible terrain, buildings or fortifications."
If by chance your going to be playing at adepticion its a pretty important item. Don't expect to show up and put your objectives behind your aegis. It also really bones people who show up with a skyshield or a fortress of redemption. The footprint of the fortification will force the objectives into small areas.

My problem with Horrors is simply relying on a random mechanic (psychic powers) to shoot. You gotta pass your test and hope it doesnt get denied. It doesnt help that Nids, Eldar and SW have good psy defense. GK also has good defense with their 5+ DTW. Not a useless unit, but i'd probably lean towards Daemonettes and Plaguebearers.

My biggest beef with these troops is honestly the lack of shooting. I also am not particularly impressed with the 5++ since cover is so easy to come by and cover is a 5+ standard and often a 4+ with the large amount of aegis lines we are seeing these days.

Essentially, I also think relying on assault is a risky proposition. Assault is inherently more random in this edition than shooting. Between RCL, difficult terrain and overwatch there are quite a few variables that can really work against you. I also think an assault army should come stock with grenades, I think this is a HUGE weakness. I understand that it can be mitigated, but I think the units that mitigate it aren't terribly difficult to put down themselves. I'd like the units more if they were T4 stock. I think that would be very fair, T4 and grenades.

These are the big issues I am having when looking at the Daemons troops. When I've sat down to make lists, I find it hard to justify spending more than I have to on the new troop choices. Lack of shooting in a game that is more shooting based is problematic. Units that rely entirely on assault that work in 40k have a good mix of built in speed, decent durability, and cost effectiveness. Though the Daemon troops are relatively cheap, they become too expensive quickly. 20 Bloodletters with a Banner of Blood and a Bloodreaper with a Lesser Reward are now about 12 points per model. They don't justify that cost. However, without large numbers and the banner to help with that random assault distance, they really won't accomplish anything or reach their destination reliably.

I find the same to be true with many of the others. 20 Horrors with a Herald with Prescience can pack a punch on paper, but there are just so many hoops to jump through. Multiple psychic tests, random number of shots, and of course Deny the Witch. With the amount of psykers (high level ones at that) running around, it is very possible that opponents are denying 1/3 to 1/2 of Horror output. Against Space Wolves and Eldar...even worse.

It seems that Daemonettes and Plaguebearers are best, but even then, I question large point sinks into either unit. Daemons still seem to work best utilizing threat overload--make opponents focus on the multiple fast threats you present and largely ignore your troops. Look at Seekers versus Daemonettes--for three more points you gain double movement, outflank, and an additional attack. Sure, you lose scoring ability, but Daemonettes aren't durable enough to be counted on to hold objectives to begin with. Thus, Daemon players need to focus on the roles units play rather than attempting to make units into something they aren't. In this case, I'd largely argue against the Daemon troops other than min units of Plaguebearers.

Just for clarity, I don't think the codex is bad, I just wouldn't personally invest in big blocks of troops. I'd rather fill out my FA, Elites and HS and minimize points spent on the troop section.. I also think IG/CSM allies is a good thing to fill in some of the codex's weaknesses.

Just to clarify, did any dedicated assault unit in C:CSM have assault grenades? I don't recall Khorne Berzerkers having access to assault grenades outside of Land Raiders.

Either way, I feel like a mono-nurgle army has the best chance at being competitive. A herald+min-PB unit behind an aegis with Quad-gun with wreck flyers with the heralds BS5, basically ensuring the Quad-gun doesn't miss.

Plague drones are jet-pack calvary with T5 and a possible poisoned 3+ weapon.

GUO are insane with the possibility of 8 wounds and T10 with IWND, EW, and FNP plus an ID weapon.

I really, really, like the new daemons. The idea of bloodletters rolling upfield with AP3 weapons and killing the dickens out of anything they find is great. But they're so... slow... then there's the aforementioned lack of grenades, the fact that they're now T3 helps nothing, though I think it fits the fluff. They aren't MEQ, they're more like a buffed GEQ. With power swords.

Anyway.

I don't think they need transports. I think they need to be able to assault out of a Deep Strike or something to mitigate Overwatch and the lack of grenades. I think that's the only reason the Skull Cannon exists.

Just to clarify, did any dedicated assault unit in C:CSM have assault grenades? I don't recall Khorne Berzerkers having access to assault grenades outside of Land Raiders.

Yes, almost all did. They also could not gain them from a Land Raider, as they do not have a Land Raider Crusader.

Either way, I feel like a mono-nurgle army has the best chance at being competitive. A herald+min-PB unit behind an aegis with Quad-gun with wreck flyers with the heralds BS5, basically ensuring the Quad-gun doesn't miss.

I think the best units are Hounds and Seekers tbh. I also think that Fiends have a nice place there. Rainbow build is the way to go.

Plague drones are jet-pack calvary with T5 and a possible poisoned 3+ weapon.

While they do have t5, they are also very expensive. Allying in Nurgle Spawn is way better.

GUO are insane with the possibility of 8 wounds and T10 with IWND, EW, and FNP plus an ID weapon.

The lack of speed is bad, but I agree that they are very tough. Just stay away from Jaws.

I really, really, like the new daemons. The idea of bloodletters rolling upfield with AP3 weapons and killing the dickens out of anything they find is great. But they're so... slow... then there's the aforementioned lack of grenades, the fact that they're now T3 helps nothing, though I think it fits the fluff. They aren't MEQ, they're more like a buffed GEQ. With power swords.

Anyway.

I don't think they need transports. I think they need to be able to assault out of a Deep Strike or something to mitigate Overwatch and the lack of grenades. I think that's the only reason the Skull Cannon exists.

I just don't think they are viable. Transports aren't great in 6th, but grenades and fleet are. What's even better is beast/cav movement. I'd run Flesh Hounds and Crushers before going for Bloodletters. And yes, I do think that Crushers could work. Grimnoire or Invisibility makes them quite a force.

 JGrand wrote:

Just to clarify, did any dedicated assault unit in C:CSM have assault grenades? I don't recall Khorne Berzerkers having access to assault grenades outside of Land Raiders.

Yes, almost all did. They also could not gain them from a Land Raider, as they do not have a Land Raider Crusader.

Either way, I feel like a mono-nurgle army has the best chance at being competitive. A herald+min-PB unit behind an aegis with Quad-gun with wreck flyers with the heralds BS5, basically ensuring the Quad-gun doesn't miss.

I think the best units are Hounds and Seekers tbh. I also think that Fiends have a nice place there. Rainbow build is the way to go.

Plague drones are jet-pack calvary with T5 and a possible poisoned 3+ weapon.

While they do have t5, they are also very expensive. Allying in Nurgle Spawn is way better.

GUO are insane with the possibility of 8 wounds and T10 with IWND, EW, and FNP plus an ID weapon.

The lack of speed is bad, but I agree that they are very tough. Just stay away from Jaws.

I really, really, like the new daemons. The idea of bloodletters rolling upfield with AP3 weapons and killing the dickens out of anything they find is great. But they're so... slow... then there's the aforementioned lack of grenades, the fact that they're now T3 helps nothing, though I think it fits the fluff. They aren't MEQ, they're more like a buffed GEQ. With power swords.

Anyway.

I don't think they need transports. I think they need to be able to assault out of a Deep Strike or something to mitigate Overwatch and the lack of grenades. I think that's the only reason the Skull Cannon exists.

I just don't think they are viable. Transports aren't great in 6th, but grenades and fleet are. What's even better is beast/cav movement. I'd run Flesh Hounds and Crushers before going for Bloodletters. And yes, I do think that Crushers could work. Grimnoire or Invisibility makes them quite a force.

The problem is that we need troops. To be honest, I'm considering dumping my daemonettes for more min units of plaguebearers. Fiends would be awesome with the beguilement loci, and Seekers with swiftness. I also really like Hounds and Crushers for their speed.

The new demon codex is disappointing. All the troops are still junk as the OP has pointed out. Tzeentch shooting is horrible. Basically when making a demon list now, start with 3 soul grinders of nurgle and work from there.