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The way to counter rez protocal, is to focus fire on unit's. If you kill the whole unit, they can't come back.

Yeah, that's hard, which is why they are so strong, but if you only shoot a little at each squad, it will do far less damage than focussing and totally destroying one squad.

Initiative is only 2. MSS Ill give you though...

also, if I may, the biggest, most-complained about unit in the CronDex dosent have RP.

 IHateNids wrote:
Initiative is only 2. MSS Ill give you though...

also, if I may, the biggest, most-complained about unit in the CronDex dosent have RP.

Can't give flyers RP thankfully.

 IHateNids wrote:
why? because that unit you mostly killed isnt actually mostly dead?

except that you can wipe out the entire unit, and then the character with EL allows for RP, not to mention it wastes a lot of firepower when you have to shoot at one guy standing just to make sure his 5-10 buddies dont get back up.

I remember when you could get around RP with instand death, and they should have kept it like that,
now its just a super charged FnP

RP isnt even the uber cheese, its the rediculously good, under costed flyers, with crazy rules that allow units to never get hurt in them, and lets them pop out at 24" and still move/shoot normally
no other army has a (almost) army wide rule better then FnP, no other army has flyer transports that actually make the unit inside invincible, let alone for such a cheap points cost.

and MSS... enough said







Automatically Appended Next Post:
thankfully forgeworld is releasing another awesome flyer to help the under powers necron air force.

Hmm... Every army now has at least one vote, which at minimum proves that there are some things that each army just cannot handle.
I find it interesting that there are now two votes for Orks as an OP army, they lead me to believe that those votes were jokes, because the ork codex's units + combinations have pretty good counters in all codicies (footslog being the easiest to counter unless you brought a lot of anti armour, and they went all boyz, with every 10th boy having a rokkit, or added PK nobz w/painboy on bikes, which is one b*tch of a unit).

I am a LITTLE curious why guard is running so strong. Yes, vendettas are good, but a single undercosted unit does not an overpowered codex make.

As vaktathi notes, necron fits 6th ed like a glove, with most of its units and play styles optimized for this rules edition. Take your vendetta blinders off and tell me, what else about guard is overpowered? Is it infantry platoons? Russes? any of the elites choices? any non-vendetta FA options?

I'd certainly put GK above IG. 6th ed is about MSU, which GK can do cheaper than guard, (and, I'd say better due to wargear options) thanks to henchmen. GK is a psychic army, and psychic powers got way better in 6th edition. GK have always relied on mid-strength weapons to do their killing, and you can now glance vehicles to death. Close combat got a lot tricker, but GK can shunt, etc. etc. It seems like GK much better fits the changes to 6th ed than guard does.

For guard? It's just a single model, and it's becoming more and more counterable as more things get skyfire and flakk missiles and fliers of their own.

I think for Guard is the case that you can bring 3 of (arguably) the best, most versatile tank in the game outside of apocalypse in a single FOC slot.

You can also do this with Hellhounds (wich are unbelievably annoying to Necron Warriors) and pretty much the best Artillery vehicle in the game.

Vendettas just happen to be something that is used most often, as a lot of people who bought the models because they fitted in lists/were needed for a regiment/the models are awesome now find those models to be even better at their task, because of the Flyer rule.

Marbo is annoying though, he will always get you a victory point

 Vaktathi wrote:

The weight people judge armies by flyers, in some cases almost exclusively, is interesting, and most telling indeed. Nobody seems to care how much armor you can field, how many scoring units you can bring, how much you can take advantage of psychic powers or how fast an army can be, but rather it's flyers and their ability to deal with them that seems to define

 Formosa wrote:
Most broken vehicle: chimeras
Most broken unit: wraiths, vets
Most broken flyer: vendetta, night scythe
Most broken wargear: mss, runes of f you psykers
Most broken characters: necron lord with mss
Most broken transport: night scythe

Chimeras? Really? Also, Vets? Vets and Chimeras work well together, but without each other aren't what they are together, and Chimeras are significantly less useful and *far* less survivable in 6E.

Ok I dont mind explaining.
Chims: stat wise not too bad, it's the ease in which you can still spam this unit, compare it to every other transport option out there and it wins hands down, with one notable exception..night scythe.
Vets: same as above, these are so cheap and spamable they need a slight nerf, 3 meltas, 3 plasmas etc, only allow 1 special in this unit and watch people cry.

easysauce wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
why? because that unit you mostly killed isnt actually mostly dead?

except that you can wipe out the entire unit, and then the character with EL allows for RP, not to mention it wastes a lot of firepower when you have to shoot at one guy standing just to make sure his 5-10 buddies dont get back up.

Except you can't use RP for the rest of the unit if all that's left is a character..and it's no different than how you've always had to shoot necron units - shoot the entire thing down before you move to the next.

I remember when you could get around RP with instand death, and they should have kept it like that,
now its just a super charged FnP

Back when it was a 4+ instead of a 5+ and ID didn't matter anyway since there was always at least one lord nearby with the old AoE rez orbs? Sure, I'll trade for that if you want to throw your AT weapons at my infantry instead of my vehicles.

RP isnt even the uber cheese, its the rediculously good, under costed flyers, with crazy rules that allow units to never get hurt in them, and lets them pop out at 24" and still move/shoot normally
no other army has a (almost) army wide rule better then FnP, no other army has flyer transports that actually make the unit inside invincible, let alone for such a cheap points cost.

While they don't get wrecked in the crash, they still get thrown into reserves and have to walk on the board, which almost guarantees they are no longer a threat to your objectives.

and MSS... enough said

Without which Lords would pretty much be nothing more than ablative wounds and a 100pt tax to unlock royal courts.

thankfully forgeworld is releasing another awesome flyer to help the under powers necron air force.

And it costs how many points? And does what exactly? The only thing we know about it is what it looks like and that it costs over $100.


Now...all that said, necrons are still deserving of the vote for most OP codex out there. It's packed with so many under-costed units/wargear, it's not even funny.

 Ailaros wrote:
I am a LITTLE curious why guard is running so strong. Yes, vendettas are good, but a single undercosted unit does not an overpowered codex make.

As vaktathi notes, necron fits 6th ed like a glove, with most of its units and play styles optimized for this rules edition. Take your vendetta blinders off and tell me, what else about guard is overpowered? Is it infantry platoons? Russes? any of the elites choices? any non-vendetta FA options?

I'd certainly put GK above IG. 6th ed is about MSU, which GK can do cheaper than guard, (and, I'd say better due to wargear options) thanks to henchmen. GK is a psychic army, and psychic powers got way better in 6th edition. GK have always relied on mid-strength weapons to do their killing, and you can now glance vehicles to death. Close combat got a lot tricker, but GK can shunt, etc. etc. It seems like GK much better fits the changes to 6th ed than guard does.

For guard? It's just a single model, and it's becoming more and more counterable as more things get skyfire and flakk missiles and fliers of their own.

I play IG and GK, some orks too now,

when all I want to do is win, IG every time, for the last 3 editions, you can just put so much on the table that as long as your dice somewhat average out you are golden. with guard its never about a single model, its about having multiples of everything and still having pts left, 3 dettas or more depending on pts with scoring units and a solid gun line will win me plenty of games. Id say the two are even, if not edge guard, but that may just be because ive played, and won, far more games for far longer with them.



the other codex's will be updated to work with today's rules and even out, except for necrons,

necrons are severely underpowered, especially in the air department, so I predict they will get some more air units to balance that out and make them competitive.

Maelstrom808 wrote:


While they don't get wrecked in the crash, they still get thrown into reserves and have to walk on the board, which almost guarantees they are no longer a threat to your objectives.

To be fair it's still infinitely better than being destroyed, and means they can secure/reinforce your own objectives, and often there are enough of them that they still have plenty of opportunity to get to objectives.

and MSS... enough said

Without which Lords would pretty much be nothing more than ablative wounds and a 100pt tax to unlock royal courts.

 Vaktathi wrote:
To be fair it's still infinitely better than being destroyed, and means they can secure/reinforce your own objectives, and often there are enough of them that they still have plenty of opportunity to get to objectives.

I agree that it is better, and that it allows for reinforcement on your own objectives, but it is still a drawback that forces the cron player to readjust his strategy mid-game. How big of an adjustment boils down to how many units got shot down, and what the composition of his forces were like. It's not like the cron player just shrugs off the transport going down.

2+/3++ HQ's with S7 AP1 Amourbane weapons? I doubt it, they just wouldn't auto-win most challenges. They'd still be pretty solid.

Except they are I2, so pretty much any good CC unit that isn't entirely based on using I1 weapons will tear them apart before they get to do much, and with all the gauss, the armourbane isn't going to matter all that much unless you get into CC with a walker (in which case, you've already screwed up somewhere along the way).

RP isnt even the uber cheese, its the rediculously good, under costed flyers, with crazy rules that allow units to never get hurt in them, and lets them pop out at 24" and still move/shoot normally
no other army has a (almost) army wide rule better then FnP, no other army has flyer transports that actually make the unit inside invincible, let alone for such a cheap points cost.

While they don't get wrecked in the crash, they still get thrown into reserves and have to walk on the board, which almost guarantees they are no longer a threat to your objectives.

---really? coming on from reserves instead of the whole squad dying is a pretty big difference, esp when its only 3 or 4th turn, and that unit's only 18" from the center of the board since it moves 6" after it comes on. Most games will have some objectives in my zone and some in his, or center where they are still going to get shot at.

there is 0 risk to take a unit in the scythe, where as other flyers are death traps if shot down, and cant go zooming 24" into the back field to deploy a non scattering, non snap shoting unit,

other flyers dont do this, and are more expensive.

and MSS... enough said

Without which Lords would pretty much be nothing more than ablative wounds and a 100pt tax to unlock royal courts.

----I dont agree they would be trash with out it, lords have a decent stat line and decent weapons, they now have a coin flip chance to beat ANY model in the game as well, so the one thing thats supposed to be weak in the army is actually pretty good.
where as before lords trash other "cc" weak armies like guard, tau, now they can flip a coin to trash any tricked out character/monstrouscreature because they cannot "stop hitting themselves"

they were only supposed to be decent in CC not able to take on anything with a good chance to win.

its already one of the best shooty/zoomy armies... all thats left is CC, and they were already better then tau or guard in that respect.

HQ's are mandatory, and lords fit the bill and are usefull and unlock useful things, thats hardly a tax... thats paying for something.

100pts tax for the ability to have a cryptex jump out of a 24" zooming flyer with a squad of death marks move 6" in with that template staff wounding a 2+'s ap 2, and there are more fun things to do with royal courts as well.

a 30" 2+ to wound ap 2 template weapon? and a valuable HQ choice for 100pts you say? its a deal every time already.

add to this res orbs and other options its even more attractive...

add MSS and now every model in the game has at least a 50% chance to lose right off the bat, let alone to attacks.

MSS is utterly ludicrous. It is a cheap, spammable item that has 50% chance per turn auto-winning against a Bloodthirster. Even if it costed hundred points and was limited to one per army it would still be too good. It is the single most broken thing in the game.

easysauce wrote:
---really? coming on from reserves instead of the whole squad dying is a pretty big difference, esp when its only 3 or 4th turn, and that unit's only 18" from the center of the board since it moves 6" after it comes on. Most games will have some objectives in my zone and some in his, or center where they are still going to get shot at.

there is 0 risk to take a unit in the scythe, where as other flyers are death traps if shot down, and cant go zooming 24" into the back field to deploy a non scattering, non snap shoting unit,

other flyers dont do this, and are more expensive.

Yes it's cheaper than it should be, I never argued that or that the 24" drop capability was strong. But saying that there is 0 risk in getting your night scythe shot down is just flat wrong which is what I was addressing. Is it far less of a disadvantage? Of course, no one is going to dispute that, but it can still mean the difference between a win and a draw/loss, which is all I was pointing out. I still think it needs about a 30% cost increase. Also keep in mind that the other flyer transports are generally better armed, better armored (arguably considering living metal), and can hover.

----I dont agree they would be trash with out it, lords have a decent stat line and decent weapons, they now have a coin flip chance to beat ANY model in the game as well, so the one thing thats supposed to be weak in the army is actually pretty good.
where as before lords trash other "cc" weak armies like guard, tau, now they can flip a coin to trash any tricked out character/monstrouscreature because they cannot "stop hitting themselves"

they were only supposed to be decent in CC not able to take on anything with a good chance to win.

its already one of the best shooty/zoomy armies... all thats left is CC, and they were already better then tau or guard in that respect

Yes, they can beat any model in the game...which is why you don't get into CC against a lord with your tricked out model. You get into CC with them with a dedicated CC unit with a decent model count and you crush them or at worst tar pit them. Send your tricked out CC monster against something that isn't specifically built to destroy it.

Lords are not what makes the cron army strong in CC, wraiths and scarabs do that. Lords with MSS are what makes Necrons strong against Characters, and that's a big difference.

HQ's are mandatory, and lords fit the bill and are usefull and unlock useful things, thats hardly a tax... thats paying for something.

As I said before, just about any I2 cc character is going to be fairly dead weight unless you are bringing something that negates that I2. Aside from MSS, there is nothing else to make it worthwhile.

100pts tax for the ability to have a cryptex jump out of a 24" zooming flyer with a squad of death marks move 6" in with that template staff wounding a 2+'s ap 2, and there are more fun things to do with royal courts as well.

a 30" 2+ to wound ap 2 template weapon? and a valuable HQ choice for 100pts you say? its a deal every time already.

I was wrong before, it's a 90pt tax, but still that's a 90 point tax for a 225pt unit (that probably doesn't get to use it's super special 2+ To Wound if it's flyer gets shot down). I'll find better uses for those points thank you very much.

add to this res orbs and other options its even more attractive...

The orb that statistically will only pay for itself when using a 20 man warrior blob?

add MSS and now every model in the game has at least a 50% chance to lose right off the bat, let alone to attacks.

Again....don't attack it with your uber model. There are usually better options.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

add MSS and now every model in the game has at least a 50% chance to lose right off the bat, let alone to attacks.

Again....don't attack it with your uber model. There are usually better options.

Pretty difficult when the other player is running a Destroyer Lord + Wraithstar...

I play Necrons and Grey Knights and my friend would certainly say my Grey Knights are over powered

He plays chaos and i think his heldrakes are overpowered,
although he does bring 3

I think every army has something a little overpowering and when someone takes advantage of that its just strategy

I couldnt pick just 1 anyways, i havent played every army so i wouldnt know

 Macok wrote:
What strikes me the most is the difference between the top dogs and the others.
From what I recall, in whole 5th edition there was never such a distinct leap between most voted OP armies and others. It was kinda smoother, not such a huge spike.
Right now we have first, second, third place and literally the rest not being even close to top 3.

I've noticed dakka is strongly favored towards Orks.

People praise stuff like that ork guy that ripped of a Titan head on his bike, betcha a Kriegsman that they'd say its terrible and Marty Sue if a SM did it to a Stomper or a Chaos Titan.

So... how are Tau overpowered? I understand they have rail guns, and jetpacks are annoying to field against (at least, that's what I'm told) but it's the oldest codex out there, and one of the basic troop selections are next to useless.

What surprises me most is that there are two votes for everything being perfectly balanced...

Selym wrote:
Hmm... Every army now has at least one vote, which at minimum proves that there are some things that each army just cannot handle.

Templars don't.

Necroes wrote:
So... how are Tau overpowered? I understand they have rail guns, and jetpacks are annoying to field against (at least, that's what I'm told) but it's the oldest codex out there, and one of the basic troop selections are next to useless.

Second oldest.

On the topic of MSS, the "just charge something else" is kinda hard when there's eleventyfive Lords all over the place. As a Templars player I'm dependent on my Characters actually killing stuff. MSS completely feth everything over for me. I know it's avoidable if you make sure that you're not engaged at the start of the combat and stuff, but it's a bloody hassle and doesn't always work.

Necroes wrote:
So... how are Tau overpowered? I understand they have rail guns, and jetpacks are annoying to field against (at least, that's what I'm told) but it's the oldest codex out there, and one of the basic troop selections are next to useless.

It's probably the Errata that enabled them to have "always on" 3+cover saves for vehicles for 5pts each. Statistically they're still easier to kill than they were in 5E, but it's something that annoys a lot of people.

What I find really funny is that SoB have more votes than Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Vanilla SM... What do they actually have that's so OP? Bolters? Flamers? Meltaguns? Exorcist tanks? The 6+ inv save is more a novelty than useful and they have no anti-psyker capability. Any list built to kill marines will kill them too and they have T3 so more wounds to save. Even Celestine is more annoying than OP against anything that can put out bucketfuls of high-strength attacks.

The space marines at least have the advantage of 5-man base squad size for troops, and Combat Squad option if they take 10. SoB have one troop choice (solid, admittedly) with 10 minimum size. And a special rule (Faith points) that gets less useful the larger the game since you'll soon have more units than possible points to use.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Necrons, no contest.

Second to all you said and I may add that, if you kill them they (ok, not all) come back and also that, iirc, they all have Ld 10

Last game I played was a 3 vs 3 (500 pts each): lost 7 to 6 VP, but we cheered at the moral victory of succeeding in sinking the throne-despised ghost ark

 Kerrathyr wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Necrons, no contest.

Second to all you said and I may add that, if you kill them they (ok, not all) come back and also that, iirc, they all have Ld 10

Last game I played was a 3 vs 3 (500 pts each): lost 7 to 6 VP, but we cheered at the moral victory of succeeding in sinking the throne-despised ghost ark

Moral victories are fun

Also, if things in the Necron codex were just a bit more expensive, they would be nowhere near as OP, but it just so happens that Matt Ward decided he likes codex creep...

 Vaktathi wrote:

Necroes wrote:
So... how are Tau overpowered? I understand they have rail guns, and jetpacks are annoying to field against (at least, that's what I'm told) but it's the oldest codex out there, and one of the basic troop selections are next to useless.

It's probably the Errata that enabled them to have "always on" 3+cover saves for vehicles for 5pts each. Statistically they're still easier to kill than they were in 5E, but it's something that annoys a lot of people.

Even though they are far more expensive then everyone elses (Barring Eldar)

Experiment 626 wrote:

I'd rather spend 2 hours having my finger nails pulled out while hanging upside down by my eyeballs than face another pointless 20min waste-of-time playing against Derp Knights...

Wow, DE torture > fighting GK. Sorry, just had to quote that as it gave me an audible laugh (a literal LOL if you will).

Experiment 626 wrote:
No book should ever be an outright hard-counter to another entire book!.

My DA are geared to take on CSM (which my brother plays, YAY DV!), but admittedly it isn't such an uphill battle for him.

Back on topic, I voted Necrons. Mainly because its "which codex is most OP" and not "which codex has the most OP build/units" which necrons would still be a contender for. I tend to build TAC lists, but forget winning with that vs necrons, unless the dice gods smile upon my hands and/or my opponent is a tactical *insert demeaning word here*. I find even with a tailored list, which I hate building, I still struggle to beat my friend's necrons, and he isn't exactly a tactical guru. No insult to him, he just hasn't played as long/much as the rest of our main group.

For me it isn't one or two units that make them OP in my opinion, it's the combination of all of those factors that does. MSS + RP + their fliers + this that and the other thing = OP to me. my two cents.

Not saying Tau are overpowered so don't take that as what I am saying I don't think that at all. However 6th gave them a much needed boost with the 3+ cover but also in the nerf to other armies not being able to charge when they outflank (snikrot plus warboss usually worked well for me against tau). Add to that the shift towards shooting away from cc and they are doing fairly well now.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Necroes wrote:
So... how are Tau overpowered? I understand they have rail guns, and jetpacks are annoying to field against (at least, that's what I'm told) but it's the oldest codex out there, and one of the basic troop selections are next to useless.

It's probably the Errata that enabled them to have "always on" 3+cover saves for vehicles for 5pts each. Statistically they're still easier to kill than they were in 5E, but it's something that annoys a lot of people.

Even though they are far more expensive then everyone elses (Barring Eldar)

True, I won't deny that most of them are, I'd say Hammerheads are probably exactly where they should be but are the exception, the bigger issue being that the nature of the army generally requires more Railguns than hammerheads will provide. But it's the perception that 3+ cover saves makes on people, even if really it's the only thing holding them up.

I voted Necrons, because in my mind, there isn't anything else that comes close. A well run TAC Necron list can realistically handle just about any other TAC list with no trouble. The problem is when spam comes into the mix. Spam armies of every kind will always have the built-in hard counter, which is why CronAir doesn't seem to win many tourneys. CronAir that goes first against another flyer spam army or an AA spam army doesn't last long at all. Then the Cron players (and those that beat Cron spammers) cry that the army is being unfairly targeted.

Truth is, a balanced Necron army (ie, taking multiple types of units, no just min/maxing) is damn difficult to deal with for just about anybody. They have no discernable weakness to exploit for the most part, as they can have large, cheap units of tough troops (Necron Warriors) that have great synergy with other units (Crypteks, Lords, Ghost Ark, Nightscythe). They have slightly more expensive but very efficient troops in Immortals (w/Telsa=antihorde by itself), which are durable enough to work in smaller units. Combine the efficient troop selections with incredible Elite, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support units that are generally considered undercosted by alot, and you have an army that doesn't need to spam units to be punishing.

Finally, the last bit of icing on the silver frosted cake. A single 1750 point army can have multiple "combi-trick" units whereas most armies are lucky to be able to field a single trick unit in that point range. My regular Necron opponent will often run a large "Silver Tide" brick (20 warriors, overlord w/Rez Orb, cryptek or two, and Ghost Ark) along with the wonderful Nightscythe/Deathmark/Cryptek combo, and top that off with Imhotek and a reroll granting Cryptek in a large group of immortals. And he still has points left over for Wraiths, Destroyers, and an Annihilation barge or two. I always feel like I've left half my army in the box by mistake when I play him.