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I I think that the BBC might have actually misunderstood what the guy is doing. He says he wants to create a site where people can print stuff free of copyright, this is not the same as were people can print stuff that is copyrights for free.
For example, if I create something I could upload it to the site and let others use it as they need, so I have in effect given away the copyright and it is now copyright free. This doesn;t cover a Leman Russ as even if I am the only to create it the copyright is still owned by GW (without getting into the whole chapter house thing – for the sake of the argument here lets just say they do) so I don’t think this site would allow it. Atleasts thats how I read it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or to put it another way.
I need a door handle, currently I have to go to the shop and buy a door handle. The next week a different door handle breaks – I again have to go to the shop and buy a new one as the current handle is copyrighted so I can’t “make my own”.
What this guy is proposing (as I read it) is that you need a door handle – you go on the site and buy the design then print it off. Once it’s printed you are now free to make as many copies of it as you need for the rest of your life. What he does not say he is doing, anywhere in the article or any releases I can see from the company, is that he is going to sell (for example) coke bottles without getting their permission.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/13 13:24:13
Stranger83 wrote: I I think that the BBC might have actually misunderstood what the guy is doing. He says he wants to create a site where people can print stuff free of copyright, this is not the same as were people can print stuff that is copyrights for free.
That's how bit torrents and file sharing started to begin with.
Stranger83 wrote: What this guy is proposing (as I read it) is that you need a door handle – you go on the site and buy the design then print it off. Once it’s printed you are now free to make as many copies of it as you need for the rest of your life. What he does not say he is doing, anywhere in the article or any releases I can see from the company, is that he is going to sell (for example) coke bottles without getting their permission.
Yeah, that's how it will work, just ask the music and movie industry...
This will play out in exactly the same way that all file-sharing tech (peer-2-peer, torrents,etc) has played out:
'Hey, I've got a brilliant idea, lets create a website that lets people share non-copyrighted x/y/z (in this case 3d printed blueprints)'
Everyone else realises they can use it for piracy, site gets shut down, owner gets put in jail as some sort of evil ogre that eats small children in the dead of night.
Only this time the industry is on alert, so they will stop it before it even starts...
And that is why you hear people yelling FOR THE EMPEROR rather than FOR LOGICAL AND QUANTIFIABLE BASED DECISIONS FOR THE BETTERMENT OF THE MAJORITY!
Phototoxin wrote:Kids go in , they waste tonnes of money on marnus calgar and his landraider, the slaneshi-like GW revel at this lust and short term profit margin pleasure. Meanwhile father time and cunning lord tzeentch whisper 'our games are better AND cheaper' and then players leave for mantic and warmahordes.
daveNYC wrote:The Craftworld guys, who are such stick-in-the-muds that they manage to make the Ultramarines look like an Ibiza nightclub that spiked its Red Bull with LSD.
Leigen_Zero wrote: This will play out in exactly the same way that all file-sharing tech (peer-2-peer, torrents,etc) has played out:
'Hey, I've got a brilliant idea, lets create a website that lets people share non-copyrighted x/y/z (in this case 3d printed blueprints)'
Everyone else realises they can use it for piracy, site gets shut down, owner gets put in jail as some sort of evil ogre that eats small children in the dead of night.
Only this time the industry is on alert, so they will stop it before it even starts...
Whilst this is possible it is also easy to avoid, simply set up a system where by you have to approve something before it goes up for sale - job done, now people cannot put copyrighted items up for 3d print as you would simply disapprove them. Think of it a bit like Shapeways, only instead of them sending you the item you get to print it yourself. I'm fairly sure Shapeways have to get the item approved before they will sell it, so this is certaily possible.
Whilst there are plenty of bittorrents that are getting shut down because they let any tom,dick or harry upload anything without controls - there are also plenty that are not getting shut down because they monitor what is uploaded. Now granted, if he goes for the unmonitored approach then yes, it'll get abused, but again - without confirmation we don't know that this is what he plans.
I will say that, other than the BBC, I've not seen anyone else say that this is "the piratebay of 3D printing" - though in fairness I havn't looked around that much
Leigen_Zero wrote: This will play out in exactly the same way that all file-sharing tech (peer-2-peer, torrents,etc) has played out:
'Hey, I've got a brilliant idea, lets create a website that lets people share non-copyrighted x/y/z (in this case 3d printed blueprints)'
Everyone else realises they can use it for piracy, site gets shut down, owner gets put in jail as some sort of evil ogre that eats small children in the dead of night.
Only this time the industry is on alert, so they will stop it before it even starts...
Remember that time that TPB was taken down forever? Me neither. Sure Hollywood sued 4 guys over it, and 3 of them spent a whopping 8 months in Swedish prison which I assume is like having to spend 8 months in the Hamptons.
TPB was shut down a few times, and each time it came back stronger. Now it's cloud based and it's ISP is protected by political immunity from censorship. There is no stopping the Bay, and it is only a matter of time before people start using TPB en masse for 3D files.
Megaupload.com got taken down because they were not smart in where/how they were ran. Same with Demonoid.de to an extent. TPB knew about those errors and has actively avoided making them.
The US and other governments can cry all they want, and some sites may die, but TPB has put themselves in quite a strong position to never be taken down. IP blocking also doesn't work, as there are hundreds of proxy sites for it now to circumvent blocks.
"Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! ... It’s become the promotions department of a toy company." -- Rick Priestly
The question isn't how will these file-sharing sites be stopped, but how will makers of wigets respond to the new market.
There are still places you can buy CDs, and you can still buy music even with TPB.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aerethan wrote: Remember that time that TPB was taken down forever? Me neither. Sure Hollywood sued 4 guys over it, and 3 of them spent a whopping 8 months in Swedish prison which I assume is like having to spend 8 months in the Hamptons.
They lock you in an IKEA for 8 months...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/13 15:49:02
nectarprime wrote: Oh no now everyone will use their $30k 3D printers to make stuff!
someone in the late 1970's wrote:Oh no now everyone will use their $30k laser printer to print books!
someone in the mid 1980s wrote:Oh no now everyone will use their $3k VCR to copy and sell movies!
someone in the mid 1990s wrote:Oh no now everyone will use their $300 1xspeed CD burner to copy and sell music!
Technology gets exponentially cheaper...
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
It's still a while off having affordable 3D printers of sufficient quality to actually print models like we collect in our homes. People already recast and resell miniatures and for many GW vehicles you can already find templates and make them out of plasticard.
If internet piracy couldn't kill the music, movie and video game industries where literally all you need is a hard drive to store the files, I doubt it'd going to kill wargaming where you need to buy a 3D printer and spend money printing it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/13 16:49:18
AllSeeingSkink wrote: It's still a while off having affordable 3D printers of sufficient quality to actually print models like we collect in our homes. People already recast and resell miniatures and for many GW vehicles you can already find templates and make them out of plasticard.
Define "a while off" you can buy them NOW for hundreds of dollars, and it's going down every year. Quality also isn't the issue, for all intents and purposes they all can create pieces with sufficient quality for our miniatures.
If internet piracy couldn't kill the music, movie and video game industries where literally all you need is a hard drive to store the files, I doubt it'd going to kill wargaming where you need to buy a 3D printer and spend money printing it.
Is the computer free? nope, how about the player? nope... but this is a good point. I am not convinced that the game industry will die, but it will be different at some level or another. Just like those industries had to make changes, due to internet piracy, so will war gaming. Every mall used to have a music store, now they don't. Pop music used to be good, now it sucks...
Define "a while off" you can buy them NOW for hundreds of dollars, and it's going down every year. Quality also isn't the issue, for all intents and purposes they all can create pieces with sufficient quality for our miniatures.
Ha ha, no. The best quality pieces that Shapeways can put out look like sandpaper compared to resin or plastic minis. Go ask Raging Heroes how much it costs them to print out a master model for resin casting that doesn't make the end product look like complete gak. Hint: it costs more to print just one model at that resolution than what you think the printer itself costs.
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: It's still a while off having affordable 3D printers of sufficient quality to actually print models like we collect in our homes. People already recast and resell miniatures and for many GW vehicles you can already find templates and make them out of plasticard.
Define "a while off" you can buy them NOW for hundreds of dollars, and it's going down every year. Quality also isn't the issue, for all intents and purposes they all can create pieces with sufficient quality for our miniatures.
If internet piracy couldn't kill the music, movie and video game industries where literally all you need is a hard drive to store the files, I doubt it'd going to kill wargaming where you need to buy a 3D printer and spend money printing it.
Is the computer free? nope, how about the player? nope... but this is a good point. I am not convinced that the game industry will die, but it will be different at some level or another. Just like those industries had to make changes, due to internet piracy, so will war gaming. Every mall used to have a music store, now they don't. Pop music used to be good, now it sucks...
Well, the outdated music distribution model became, well, outdated. Who wants to drive to a store using gas money and time and spend $18.99 for a CD when you can download it for $8.99 from iTunes?
I can easily see minis companies in ten years being composed of 3d sculptors and you buy the design file for a squad for $50 and now you can print from your 3D printer however many squads you want. Just like music and movie pirates, and illegal recasting companies, which all exist today, the music and movie and mini industries are just fine. I'm sure a lot of people will pirate 3d design files but people will buy the 3d design files legally just like most people buy legal minis nowadays or have netflix or used red box or buy songs on iTunes.
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
Remember the time when mass copy machines and home printers killed off printed media? No? Me neither.
I don't see why it'd be any different in this case. Plus I find the claims of a home revolution to be brought about by 3D printers hilarious. Personally, I can't think of a single item in my house that I could print out and get any sort of utility out of. At the end of the day, buying a printer, getting hold of a blueprint, and paying for materials to print a single miniature is much more hassle and money than people are willing to put into it. I'd rather just pay the $10 to get it delivered to me.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: It's still a while off having affordable 3D printers of sufficient quality to actually print models like we collect in our homes. People already recast and resell miniatures and for many GW vehicles you can already find templates and make them out of plasticard.
Define "a while off" you can buy them NOW for hundreds of dollars, and it's going down every year. Quality also isn't the issue, for all intents and purposes they all can create pieces with sufficient quality for our miniatures.
Perhaps your right, I just looked at a few printers in the $1500-2000 range and they looked ok for miniature making, though there was still mixed reviews on the final quality. Still doesn't seem to be "there" from some of the reviews, and at the price of those printers you could buy several 40k armies legitimately. One of the attractions of piracy is ease and price. For mass production piracy 3D printers may be useful, but people already recast and have for years.
If internet piracy couldn't kill the music, movie and video game industries where literally all you need is a hard drive to store the files, I doubt it'd going to kill wargaming where you need to buy a 3D printer and spend money printing it.
Is the computer free? nope, how about the player? nope... but this is a good point. I am not convinced that the game industry will die, but it will be different at some level or another. Just like those industries had to make changes, due to internet piracy, so will war gaming. Every mall used to have a music store, now they don't. Pop music used to be good, now it sucks...
I'd hazard a guess and say most people own a computer for day to day tasks. Most people won't own a 3D printer for day to day tasks I wouldn't think (some people might, but not "most" people like with PCs).
I wouldn't say they had to change because of internet piracy, I'd say they had to change because of the internet in general. Pop music sucking has nothing to do with internet piracy. I don't think wargaming will change at all with these printers, there are still people who will buy products even when they are freely available (more freely than 3D printed piracy).
I don't agree with internet piracy at all, however I do have to admit there's not a lot of proof that it actually hurts those other industries. Studies have shown that pirates tend to buy more than non pirates and a lot of the estimates of how much piracy "costs" those industries is based off equating downloads to lost sales which is just bull . In wargaming terms, if some kid downloads and prints 10 Leman Russ battle tanks, in the absence of 3D internet piracy, would he have actually bought 10 Leman Russ tanks? The music/movie/gaming industries like to tell you that it does, but the truth is more complicated than that. Distribution of music/movies has definitely changed with the internet, but despite piracy movies/games have larger production and advertising budgets than they ever have and rake in more money to go with it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/13 17:45:15
The first solution I see to combat piracy is to essentially license out personal use reproduction rights. So when you pay $50 for the Terminator Squad files, you have rights to produce as many as you want, provided you NEVER sell a single one. This would reduce GW's manufacturing costs to almost zero since they could (once the technology is there) have every product like this, allowing them to focus solely on design. Reduced cost means that their margins wouldn't get hit nearly as hard as if everyone pirated everything.
GW would still need to police Ebay and such to enforce the no reselling bit, but (and without knowing legal ramifications) it looks like one direction the industry could go.
"Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! ... It’s become the promotions department of a toy company." -- Rick Priestly
Sir Isaac Newton may be the deadliest son-of-a-bitch in space, but John von Neumann is the logistics officer that eats your problems and turns them into kit.
I've done plenty of research, as I have worked with 3D printers before. And I know that anything that can produce a model that would be indistinguishable for a GW mini would be much, much more expensive than what most of you are thinking. $1500 hobbyist printers will not have detail like that. Please prove me wrong!
“Yesss! Just as planned!”
–Spoken by Xi’aquan, Lord of Change, in its death throes
Looks like those pirated Leman Russes just got a little closer
Except that it won't be at this site. He openly says:
The blueprints available on the site will be for "important stuff", he said. "Not trinkets, not garden gnomes but the things institutions and industries have an interest in keeping from us; access, medical devices, drugs, goods, guns."
Sorry, your little toy men aren't "important" to him.
This guy scares me. He started his project in direct response to the push for stronger gun laws after the recent shootings here in the US. He is very much of the give everyone a weapon, it is not my fault they use them to hurt people. They guy is a true blood anarchist.
nectarprime wrote: I've done plenty of research, as I have worked with 3D printers before. And I know that anything that can produce a model that would be indistinguishable for a GW mini would be much, much more expensive than what most of you are thinking. $1500 hobbyist printers will not have detail like that. Please prove me wrong!
That is TODAY. 10 years from now it won't be the case. I'll reference this:
CD-R recording systems available in 1990 were similar to the washing machine-sized Meridian CD Publisher, based on the two-piece rack mount Yamaha PDS audio recorder costing $35,000, not including the required external ECC circuitry for data encoding, SCSI hard drive subsystem, and MS-DOS control computer.
CD-R burners now(23 years later) cost .0005% of what they originally did. So even if the worlds best 3D printer costs $1M the price in 23 years could be as low as $500.
"Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! ... It’s become the promotions department of a toy company." -- Rick Priestly
nectarprime wrote: I've done plenty of research, as I have worked with 3D printers before. And I know that anything that can produce a model that would be indistinguishable for a GW mini would be much, much more expensive than what most of you are thinking. $1500 hobbyist printers will not have detail like that. Please prove me wrong!
Time will prove you wrong as printers get cheaper. That's just the way technology works. Just like you can buy a laser printer for $69 nowadays when in 1980 the IBM 3800 laser printer cost $36,000.
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
nectarprime wrote: I've done plenty of research, as I have worked with 3D printers before. And I know that anything that can produce a model that would be indistinguishable for a GW mini would be much, much more expensive than what most of you are thinking. $1500 hobbyist printers will not have detail like that. Please prove me wrong!
I think what certain people are really waiting for is the perfect 3D scanner. Then some "generous" individual can buy a kit, scan it and load it onto a site so everyone can then take it and print out their own. Already happens with books, so I don't see why this wouldn't happen with figures.
As for those that produce the 3D models for printing and make accessible for everyone, that is their own time they are spending. Should they choose to waste it on doing work for free, that is their own prerogative.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/13 19:51:41
nectarprime wrote: Duurrrrr of course in the future it will be doable. Do you all want to argue about hoverboards too? I am talking about NOW. God, you guys sometimes.
So companies should only concern themselves with where technology is NOW? Tell me more about how that is a sustainable concept.
Companies must adapt to changes in the market. If the model industry sees a change from traditional manufacturing and distribution(just like the music industry did) then those companies MUST adapt their methods of monetizing their companies and products accordingly.
What happened to all the companies that made audio cassette tapes? They either adapted to the market and started making CD's or they went under.
What happens to a company like GW when anyone at home can do the manufacturing process themselves? They need to adapt to that and find a new way to make money from it, an example of which would be the personal use licensing.
Why on earth would I pay GW for their models if I can print my own for virtually nothing? Even if they are public domain sculpts or custom sculpts? Anyone can learn to create a 3D object and then print it. So you'll end up seeing a gak ton of garage outfits that just create 3d files and sell those to people with printers.
Just like how iTunes sells digital media instead of physical. Why buy the physical product at massive mark up when you can do it yourself for half the cost?
Price of an average album at a store: $15-20. Price of it on iTunes: $7-10+ price of a CD-R which is pennies.
It would be financially irresponsible for a company to ignore the writing on the wall when it comes to this dramatic shift in technology.
"Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! ... It’s become the promotions department of a toy company." -- Rick Priestly
GW doesn't have to worry about this for 10+ years. Furthermore, I was talking about someone replicating models TODAY. It is not doable by any of us unless we have a lot of money to burn, and it won't be doable for 10+ years.
Still looking for an affordable 3d printer that can do the same detail we see on GW minis---- you guys all say it's possible, link a printer that can do it for cheap! TODAY.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/13 21:47:35
“Yesss! Just as planned!”
–Spoken by Xi’aquan, Lord of Change, in its death throes
AllSeeingSkink wrote: It's still a while off having affordable 3D printers of sufficient quality to actually print models like we collect in our homes. People already recast and resell miniatures and for many GW vehicles you can already find templates and make them out of plasticard.
I can easily see minis companies in ten years being composed of 3d sculptors and you buy the design file for a squad for $50 and now you can print from your 3D printer however many squads you want. Just like music and movie pirates, and illegal recasting companies, which all exist today, the music and movie and mini industries are just fine. I'm sure a lot of people will pirate 3d design files but people will buy the 3d design files legally just like most people buy legal minis nowadays or have netflix or used red box or buy songs on iTunes.
This, particularly combined with pre-orders/crowd sourcing. Donate X dollars and we'll do Y sculpts. That way the development and design gets paid for on the front end.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/13 22:55:37
" - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke 
. In wargaming terms, if some kid downloads and prints 10 Leman Russ battle tanks, in the absence of 3D internet piracy, would he have actually bought 10 Leman Russ tanks? The music/movie/gaming industries like to tell you that it does, but the truth is more complicated than that. Distribution of music/movies has definitely changed with the internet, but despite piracy movies/games have larger production and advertising budgets than they ever have and rake in more money to go with it.
