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 azazel the cat wrote:
Hence, why I was merely playing Devil's Advocate.

Just as an aside, when we're faced with people who absolutely believe racism is not a pertinent factor in contemporary society, why do you feel the need to play devil's advocate/split hairs?

So I'm personally 1/8 Indian (Native American) and 7/8's god only knows what european.

I grew up in a town and went to school where about 45% was white with the rest being a mix of mexican and asian with a little black thrown in.

I didn't experience much racism growing by whites or mexicans. What I did witness is that people of similar classes tended to congregate. So mexicans, blacks and whites from some of the crappier areas of town tended to hang out. Same for asians, whites, and mexicans from the nicer areas of town (similar income/experience levels). Maybe I was priveledged but the only way I saw myself as priveledged was to grow up in a town that didn't have seaons

Funny story though. Bit of background. This was in Ventura County, CA. It's the county directly north of Los Angeles county. It's got a fairly decent average income level even with all the farm hands (some of the best soil in the world) with some areas being borderline crazy income levels.

I bought a truck when I was 17 for dirt cheap. The reason it was cheap was I was planning to repaint and repair the cosmetics. It looked ilke what I paid for it. In the two weeks I had the truck before dropping it off to get painted I got pulled over 12 times. Once it was repainted I got pulled over once.

On the opposite end of the spectrum I had a white buddy who had money and was given a very, very nice car for our age group. He got pulled over so often and had cops ask to search his vehicle that he actually opted to trade it in for a less flashy car.

Maybe it's the area I grew up in but all the cops I know in LA, Ventura, and Orange county look for things that stick out. Nice cars with teenagers/early twenties driving them, super crappy cars in nicer areas, certain clothing styles or things that are similar. Those are what get you pulled over most times.

Granted, I did not grow up in a "ghetto" after a "white flight" so my personal experience can't be as broadly applied.

 azazel the cat wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Ok, take this situation.


If you have 100 equally qualified candiates for 10 positions.

10 of the candidates are of a minority.

How do you pick the candidates for the positions?


The proper way to pick is to put all their names in a hat and randomly pick 10 of them. No subjective measures. You don't pick 9 of the majority and 1 of the minority, that simply reinforces the racial segragation. Except the segragation is present at all levels, not between top and bottom.

Open bidding? And by open bidding I mean I mean, how fat is that envelope I am going to get?

Which would imply that the wealthiest will get the positions; which currently means "non minorities", statistically speaking.

No it just means who gives the most bank. Everything else is a supposition on your part. Thats not racism. Thats free enterprise.

Manchu wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
Hence, why I was merely playing Devil's Advocate.

Just as an aside, when we're faced with people who absolutely believe racism is not a pertinent factor in contemporary society, why do you feel the need to play devil's advocate/split hairs?

Because I think, -particularly in the situation you describe- it is important for the argument to be correct for the correct reasons. While I do think we're in agreement with most of the points presented, I dislike dismissing entirely plausible ideas out of hand simply for the sake of a unified front. I may not necessarily believe in some arguments, but that doesn't mean I feel like I can ignore them if they haven't proven to be outlandish and worthy of summary dismissal.

And as a Catholic (that is, you, right?) I would hope you'd recognize that the purpose of a Devil's Advocate argument is to strengthen the initial proposition by way of overcoming arguments of challenge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
Which would imply that the wealthiest will get the positions; which currently means "non minorities", statistically speaking.

No it just means who gives the most bank. Everything else is a supposition on your part. Thats not racism. Thats free enterprise.

"who gives the most bank" can be reasonably assumed to mean "who has the means to give the most bank". Which, again, statistically will be "non minorities".

 Manchu wrote:

 whembly wrote:
Again, what I'm arguing is that this privilege is practically non-existent NOW.

Polonius showed you already that this is simply incorrect.

...and I provided a counter argument.

 whembly wrote:
I think I'm misreading you a bit.. but, how am I marginalizing the others?

That's up to your conscience.

But, I honestly don't understand... if I don't know, how would it be on my conscience if I don't know?

OP, do you have a real source for this news story?

I couldn't find anything about this on Wisconsin's DPI page, CREATE's page, or with Americorp VISTA.

 whitedragon wrote:
OP, do you have a real source for this news story?

I couldn't find anything about this on Wisconsin's DPI page, CREATE's page, or with Americorp VISTA.

Real source, as in what?
Can you see this?
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZHBpLndpLmdvdnxkcGktdmlzdGEtcHJvamVjdHxneDo3MTMxMTU5NTljYzI2ZWFl

Go here too:
https://sites.google.com/a/dpi.wi.gov/dpi-vista-project/resources-1/power-and-privilege-resources

 azazel the cat wrote:
I dislike dismissing entirely plausible ideas out of hand simply for the sake of a unified front

The trouble is, I didn't dismiss any idea at all, except the idea that there is no effective racism in the US. I listed several categories of disparate circumstances along racial lines and asked if the racial nature of the disparities was a coincidence. Your counterpoint (?) raised for the first time how in a specific sense these various indicators might be interelated. But at this point in the discussion, that is not really germane because we have people like whembly and Gray Templar flat out rejecting that there are any racial disparities in the first place.

I still haven't gotten an answer to my question, which is that if there isn't white privilege, are we just going say that white people are smarter and harder working than black people?

@ Alf: yes, your advantage is that things would be even worse if you weren't white. Things that are likely to happen to white kids (two parents, stable housing, decent schools) are unlikley for black kids.

And white kids don't have to deal with the peer pressure of a black street culture that often ridicules academic success. Now, nobody thinks the nerds are cool in white communities, but being academically oriented isn't seen as "selling out." And the first person that wants to dismiss negative peer pressure as a consideration needs to get a clue.

Manchu wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
I dislike dismissing entirely plausible ideas out of hand simply for the sake of a unified front

The trouble is, I didn't dismiss any idea at all, except the idea that there is no effective racism in the US. I listed several categories of disparate circumstances along racial lines and asked if the racial nature of the disparities was a coincidence. Your counterpoint (?) raised for the first time how in a specific sense these various indicators might be interelated. But at this point in the discussion, that is not really germane because we have people like whembly and Gray Templar flat out rejecting that there are any racial disparities in the first place.

Fair enough. I did suggest I may have misinterpreted.

 Manchu wrote:
But at this point in the discussion, that is not really germane because we have people like whembly and Gray Templar flat out rejecting that there are any racial disparities in the first place.

That's what's mystifying to me. I can see making the argument for overt racism being over. I don't buy it, but I can at least listen to the argument.

But when you have massive difference in social status between races, that's a disparity, right?

 Manchu wrote:

 whembly wrote:
I've not once seen/heard of the abject racism that folks experienced prior to the 1970s

Thanks to white privilege.

Meanwhile, take a look at what's going on in South Eastern MI with the loss of democracy -- in areas that are overwhelmingly poor and black. Nationally, voter ID laws are transparently targeting impoverished minorities. In the Supreme Court, affirmative action is under attack as "outdated."

Here's some light reading for you: http://iasp.brandeis.edu/pdfs/Author/shapiro-thomas-m/racialwealthgapbrief.pdf

Pft the most prevalent racism in Detroit is black on white.

I love affirmative action arguments, I got in several scathing ones at Wayne State, it always ends with people calling me racist, its then that I point out that as a disabled vet I receive more AA benefits than any other group out there.

 Polonius wrote:
@ Alf: yes, your advantage is that things would be even worse if you weren't white. Things that are likely to happen to white kids (two parents, stable housing, decent schools) are unlikley for black kids.

That's fine, that's all I wanted to know. No one that has accused me of having the privledge of being white has ever been able to make it specifically about me, ranting simply about the white advantage and how I should remember that. Not to say Manchu is ranting, far from it, it's just this is not the first time that I have come across this discussion and every time I have it, no one could ever differentiate between "white advantage" and "my white advantage".

Thanks Polonius

 Polonius wrote:
I still haven't gotten an answer to my question, which is that if there isn't white privilege, are we just going say that white people are smarter and harder working than black people?

Whaaaaaaa... of course not.

And white kids don't have to deal with the peer pressure of a black street culture that often ridicules academic success. Now, nobody thinks the nerds are cool in white communities, but being academically oriented isn't seen as "selling out." And the first person that wants to dismiss negative peer pressure as a consideration needs to get a clue.

Dude... peer pressure exists in all walks of life.

When I was going to school there was this "socially awkward" stigma for being a nerd... nowadays, it's like a badge of honor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Polonius wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
But at this point in the discussion, that is not really germane because we have people like whembly and Gray Templar flat out rejecting that there are any racial disparities in the first place.

That's what's mystifying to me. I can see making the argument for overt racism being over. I don't buy it, but I can at least listen to the argument.

But when you have massive difference in social status between races, that's a disparity, right?

*sigh*
I'm not flat out rejecting that there's racism (it's different now). I'm rejecting to the premise that just because I'm a human who happens to have white skin, I'm somehow benefitting some inherent privilege right now.

The whole concept of "White Privilge" just screams "Anti-White".

@Polonius

Hispanics face much the same negative peer pressure as african americans in regards to academic success. Mostly just throwing that out there not taking sides.

@Thread

In fact, anyone have the incarceration percentages or income averages for hispanics in relations to african americans?

 Hulksmash wrote:
@Polonius

Hispanics face much the same negative peer pressure as african americans in regards to academic success. Mostly just throwing that out there not taking sides.

@Thread

In fact, anyone have the incarceration percentages or income averages for hispanics in relations to african americans?

Something like this?

Found here...

 whembly wrote:
I'm rejecting to the premise that just because I'm a human who happens to have white skin, I'm somehow benefitting some inherent privilege right now

The way you describe it, I kind of see why you disbelieve it. It's like you expect privilege to be like accumulating interest in a savings account or similar.

No, that is not what white privilege is like. White privilege is when you are at an advantage in most circumstances because you are white. Again, it does not mean that you don't also face countervailing disadvantages. Poverty and a lack of education are disadvantages that you can face while also enjoying the advantage of being white. White privilege is not something that simply cancels out other disadvantages. Being white does not mean you cannot be poor. But being white does mean you are less likely to be among the very poorest.

So then the question would be how do those numbers correlate to % of ethnic population.

So roughly half the nation's poor are white, so what percentage of the white population at large is that?

 Hulksmash wrote:
@Thread

In fact, anyone have the incarceration percentages or income averages for hispanics in relations to african americans?

Here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States#Race

 whembly wrote:

 whitedragon wrote:
OP, do you have a real source for this news story?

I couldn't find anything about this on Wisconsin's DPI page, CREATE's page, or with Americorp VISTA.

Real source, as in what?
Can you see this?
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZHBpLndpLmdvdnxkcGktdmlzdGEtcHJvamVjdHxneDo3MTMxMTU5NTljYzI2ZWFl

Go here too:
https://sites.google.com/a/dpi.wi.gov/dpi-vista-project/resources-1/power-and-privilege-resources

I'm skeptical about the URL's since they point to sites.google.com

 Manchu wrote:

 whembly wrote:
I'm rejecting to the premise that just because I'm a human who happens to have white skin, I'm somehow benefitting some inherent privilege right now

The way you describe it, I kind of see why you disbelieve it. It's like you expect privilege to be like accumulating interest in a savings account or similar.

No, that is not what white privilege is like. White privilege is when you are at an advantage in most circumstances because you are white. Again, it does not mean that you don't also face countervailing disadvantages. Poverty and a lack of education are disadvantages that you can face while also enjoying the advantage of being white. White privilege is not something that simply cancels out other disadvantages. Being white does not mean you cannot be poor. But being white does mean you are less likely to be among the very poorest.

I feel like we're going in circles here... I understand the term "White Privilege" means...

I just feel like advocating these sorts of theories is further segregating the mindsets racially. That's all.

Being aware of white privilege only nurtures existing segregation to the extent that white people also claim to deserve the privilege or otherwise act to preserve it. But just saying, this is a racist society and I benefit from that racism -- that isn't creating or widening segregation. That's the first step, as a white person, on the road to opposing segregation.

 whembly wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
I still haven't gotten an answer to my question, which is that if there isn't white privilege, are we just going say that white people are smarter and harder working than black people?

Whaaaaaaa... of course not.

Then why is there such a disparity in income, wealth, and so on? Is it a massive coincidence? Lizard people?

*sigh*
I'm not flat out rejecting that there's racism (it's different now). I'm rejecting to the premise that just because I'm a human who happens to have white skin, I'm somehow benefitting some inherent privilege right now.

have an advantage doesn't mean you always enjoy it. I'm quite smart and educated. I've been unemployed, underemployed, and "questionably" employed. Does that make my degree and skill non-existent?

It's the same with any advantage, including a racial one. Yes, white people get pulled over. But It's a small, cumulative effect over time that leads to white people generally having more advantages over their lifespan.

The whole concept of "White Privilge" just screams "Anti-White".

This message brought to you by the same people that think raising taxes on the rich is because of hatred and jeaousy of the rich.

I don't hate white people. I have a lot of white friends, you know.

I think it's because we live in this world were we all adopt the fiction that hard work and diligence will get you ahead. Now, most of the time it does, but sometimes it don't. So, for a lot of white people, hearing they had some sort of advantage is immediately translated into "you were given what you have." Now, since that's what we hate about the poor, we can't accept that we were given something. Even if it was a good family life, a decent educaiton, money to start a business or go to school, or the benefit of the doubt from a cop.

Most successful people know that their personal success comes from hard work, but also from a good foundation they had little to do with. Now, the odds of getting that foundation go up if you're white. they just do.

It has nothing to do with hating white people, or trying to tear them down, or any of that nonsense. It's about getting white people to realize they are not beyond race. Most white people assume they aren't really white, they're "normal." Race is something that happens to other people. Guess what? It happens to white people too.

So hispanics by the two examples provided are just as poor as african americans and get incarcerated less (even more so once you only include actual citizens) and asians aren't worth mentioning.

Interesting. I'd be more inclined to believe in a universal white priviledge if solid studies were done correlating wealth/race/incarceration rates/and geographical locations but including all races and similar crimes for incarceration. Not primarily focusing on blacka nd white. As it stands this argument seems more about blacks being under privledged than whites being over priviledged.

Amazing how asian americans almost never get dragged into their conversations as well. Can't have a minority that is pretty solidly middle class and doesn't have high incarceration rates mucking up the rankings I suppose.

 Manchu wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
I dislike dismissing entirely plausible ideas out of hand simply for the sake of a unified front

The trouble is, I didn't dismiss any idea at all, except the idea that there is no effective racism in the US. I listed several categories of disparate circumstances along racial lines and asked if the racial nature of the disparities was a coincidence. Your counterpoint (?) raised for the first time how in a specific sense these various indicators might be interelated. But at this point in the discussion, that is not really germane because we have people like whembly and Gray Templar flat out rejecting that there are any racial disparities in the first place.

There's lots of racism. Thats separate from "white privilege."

 Manchu wrote:
Being aware of white privilege only nurtures existing segregation to the extent that white people also claim to deserve the privilege or otherwise act to preserve it. But just saying, this is a racist society and I benefit from that racism -- that isn't creating or widening segregation. That's the first step, as a white person, on the road to opposing segregation.

I work in an office that's roughly 40% black. The thing is, the staff is mostly black, half of the leads are black, but of 15 judges, 14 lawyers, and five managers, only one person is black. Of course, the contract janitors are all black. Now, I know the immediate reason: not a lot of black people in Cleveland go to law school. But why is that true? Why does a federal office with no overt racism that I've encountered have a TO that resembles the 1950s?

 Manchu wrote:
Being aware of white privilege only nurtures existing segregation to the extent that white people also claim to deserve the privilege or otherwise act to preserve it. But just saying, this is a racist society and I benefit from that racism -- that isn't creating or widening segregation. That's the first step, as a white person, on the road to opposing segregation.

Manchu... I oppose segregation of all forms (when can we haz coed showers?).

I firmly believe in meritocracy (never gonna happen).

But, I also reject this privileged premise because it presume that everyone should have an equal chance. It's a poor, simplistic attempt to explain away why there's these discrepencies between classes, races, genders, whatever...

 Hulksmash wrote:
Amazing how asian americans almost never get dragged into their conversations as well.

A friend once told me, being black has one obvious advantage over being Asian. I told him it wasn't obvious to me. He said, "no one questions whether a black person is American."

The long and the short of it is, whiteness provides many advantages in the US. Being less likely to be poor, uneducated, imprisoned, etc, are just some of them. Asians may share those advantages but they miss out on others that whites (and this case, even blacks) also have.

 whembly wrote:
It's a poor, simplistic attempt to explain away why there's these discrepencies between classes, races, genders, whatever...

Then by all means, FINALLY answer Polonius's question, and give us a good, complex answer -- other than racism -- to why black people are so much more likely to be disadvantaged in many important ways when compared to whites.

 Hulksmash wrote:
So hispanics by the two examples provided are just as poor as african americans and get incarcerated less (even more so once you only include actual citizens) and asians aren't worth mentioning.

Interesting. I'd be more inclined to believe in a universal white priviledge if solid studies were done correlating wealth/race/incarceration rates/and geographical locations but including all races and similar crimes for incarceration. Not primarily focusing on blacka nd white. As it stands this argument seems more about blacks being under privledged than whites being over priviledged.

Amazing how asian americans almost never get dragged into their conversations as well. Can't have a minority that is pretty solidly middle class and doesn't have high incarceration rates mucking up the rankings I suppose.

There's actually a ton of research on the concept of Asian Americans as the "model minority."

Want to really blow your mind? Look at the income and education levels of recent african immigrants:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_immigration_to_the_United_States#Educational_attainment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_born_per_capita_income

There are other advantages out there. Being part of a tight knit immigrant community is great for networking and finance.

I mean, its like people are so terrified of admitting that a racial thought could even enter the mind of anybody other than a monster that we want to pretend that there isn't a clear racial heirarchy.

 Polonius wrote:
I work in an office that's roughly 40% black. The thing is, the staff is mostly black, half of the leads are black, but of 15 judges, 14 lawyers, and five managers, only one person is black. Of course, the contract janitors are all black. Now, I know the immediate reason: not a lot of black people in Cleveland go to law school. But why is that true? Why does a federal office with no overt racism that I've encountered have a TO that resembles the 1950s?

Same at my firm. Two black people work in my office. One is a secretary and the other is a secretary recently promoted to paralegal. Nine attorneys work in my office and we're all white and all but one is male.