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 Polonius wrote:
Why would white advantage result in all other races being equally affected?

The most racist nation states have always had strict heirarchies with differing rules applying to different races. Under apartheid Gandhi, an Indian, could practice law when a black or mixed race person could not. But he couldn't hold office.

Ghandi wanted to hold office in South Africa? That is news to me.

@Frazz: Actually, lefties appear to earn more money than right-handed folk.
http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_dismal_science/2006/08/sinister_and_rich.html

I can't wait until we tackle this left-handed privilege issue.

I like to pretend that racism doesn't exist anymore and white privilege isn't a thing. But then I go out in public with my wife and face reality. It's anecdotal, I know. But the amount of racist bullcrap I get to hear on a daily basis is just mind numbing. I quit one of the most rewarding activities I have ever done because of it, and it's a pretty sore spot for me.

So all the white folk can drum on complaining about political correctness run amok and how this is all made up stuff. But I will just lump all the "white privilege is BS" people in with the "men are discriminated against" crowd. Sorry if that offends anyone. They can deal with it the same way I deal with the hateful looks I get when this white guy holds hands with his black wife.

 azazel the cat wrote:

whembly wrote:
I wear hearing aids because I'm profoundly deaf.

I was disadvantaged because, the "hearing" people thought I was dumb, and thus treated differently.

Therefore, there's a "Hearing Privilege" in our society. (do you know how difficult it is sometimes to get subtitles on the media?).

See where I'm coming from? That's why I think all of this is ridiculous.

Seriously, I think my jaw just dropped like an old Real Ghostbusters toy from the '80s.

How can you be attempting to use this example as satire and not be aware that this is an actual thing?

Because... I'm AWESOME* (*my kidz tell me this all the time)

Glad I'm able to incur that!

Here's the distinction...

I do not. Will Not. Live my life, beholden to the premise that there's a "Hearing Privilege". Doesn't work in my brain. Sorry guys.

CptJake wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
Why would white advantage result in all other races being equally affected?

The most racist nation states have always had strict heirarchies with differing rules applying to different races. Under apartheid Gandhi, an Indian, could practice law when a black or mixed race person could not. But he couldn't hold office.

Ghandi wanted to hold office in South Africa? That is news to me.

I think he really just wanted to use the post office. However, that situation still applies perfectly.

 d-usa wrote:
I like to pretend that racism doesn't exist anymore and white privilege isn't a thing. But then I go out in public with my wife and face reality. It's anecdotal, I know. But the amount of racist bullcrap I get to hear on a daily basis is just mind numbing. I quit one of the most rewarding activities I have ever done because of it, and it's a pretty sore spot for me.

Sorry dude...

So all the white folk can drum on complaining about political correctness run amok and how this is all made up stuff. But I will just lump all the "white privilege is BS" people in with the "men are discriminated against" crowd. Sorry if that offends anyone. They can deal with it the same way I deal with the hateful looks I get when this white guy holds hands with his black wife.

I'm not saying racism doesn't exists... of course it does, and I do feel bad that this happens to you and your wife.

One of my very good friend is black and is married to my ex's white sister. They see this too.

But wearing a braclet/put up postit notes/whatever "reminding" you that white privilege exists? That's just a but much.

 d-usa wrote:
They can deal with it the same way I deal with the hateful looks I get when this white guy holds hands with his black wife.

I was going to be surprised, as I see stuff like that all the time, but then I noted your location. I've never been to Oklahoma, but this does reinforce a stereotype I held about the place.

EDIT: "Stuff like that" = "white guy holds hands with his black wife", not the hateful looks part. Why do people assume it's any of their business?

whembly wrote:
I do not. Will Not. Live my life, beholden to the premise that there's a "Hearing Privilege". Doesn't work in my brain. Sorry guys.

I think "hearing privilege" is a misnomer. A more accurate way of putting it would be to say that "good hearing" is normal, and anything less is "sub-normal", aka a disadvantage.

Same way that most people consider "normal" to be white, heterosexual and male, because it is the dominant demographic in NA society; as a result everything else is considered sub-normal. Hence, the privilige idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

whembly wrote:But wearing a braclet/put up postit notes/whatever "reminding" you that white privilege exists? That's just a but much.

But it's not for them, dude.... the bracelet is to help remind guys like YOU, who do not experience those attitudes firsthand, that it exists, lest you go about your day being completely naive to its existence.

 azazel the cat wrote:

whembly wrote:
I do not. Will Not. Live my life, beholden to the premise that there's a "Hearing Privilege". Doesn't work in my brain. Sorry guys.

I think "hearing privilege" is a misnomer. A more accurate way of putting it would be to say that "good hearing" is normal, and anything less is "sub-normal", aka a disadvantage.

Same way that most people consider "normal" to be white, heterosexual and male, because it is the dominant demographic in NA society; as a result everything else is considered sub-normal. Hence, the privilige idea.

bingo!

 azazel the cat wrote:

whembly wrote:
I do not. Will Not. Live my life, beholden to the premise that there's a "Hearing Privilege". Doesn't work in my brain. Sorry guys.

I think "hearing privilege" is a misnomer. A more accurate way of putting it would be to say that "good hearing" is normal, and anything less is "sub-normal", aka a disadvantage.

Same way that most people consider "normal" to be white, heterosexual and male, because it is the dominant demographic in NA society; as a result everything else is considered sub-normal. Hence, the privilige idea.

I understand the definition... but is flabberghasted why make a big deal about it.

This is life...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

whembly wrote:But wearing a braclet/put up postit notes/whatever "reminding" you that white privilege exists? That's just a but much.

But it's not for them, dude.... the bracelet is to help remind guys like YOU, who do not experience those attitudes firsthand, that it exists, lest you go about your day being completely naive to its existence.

I know what's the intent... it's like asking "normal" hearing folks wear a band reminding them that not everyone hears normally.

But I don't "expect" you to live your life thinking, "I better do thing, support things so that the sub-hearing class don't get left behind".

If I don't hear you, get my fething attention! I don't bite!

See what I mean?

Can we introduce social darwinism to this festering pile of gak?

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Can we introduce social darwinism to this festering pile of gak?

Oh man... I think my head would go splody.

 whembly wrote:
And in this case, what I'm saying is that these sorts of mental jujitsu doesn't help the cause.

It's not mental jiujitsu just because it's (apparently) hard for you to understand. It is a real difference. Our society is designed for people who can hear. Watch a person lose his hearing suddenly (currently happening with my father in law) and it will become obvious. Or see how an older person who was born deaf or became deaf early on in life (my grandmother) has in fact been treated as stupid and how that has in fact affected her throughout her whole life.

 whembly wrote:
Just realize that I'm fething deaf and I don't need/deserve any special treatment. I understand that I'll have difficulties compared to others who can hear, but I'll adapt and overcome.

How exactly are you going to adapt? Learn to read lips -- great, now what about telephone conversations? A relay system -- ah but that's not you adapting. It's not all boot straps. We're human beings and we live in human communities. Those communities need to account for all of their members.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Can we introduce social darwinism to this festering pile of gak?

Social darwinist ideology + racist ideology ... someone is trying to Godwin-bomb the thread.

whembly wrote:But I don't "expect" you to live your life thinking, "I better do thing, support things so that the sub-hearing class don't get left behind".

You seriously don't? Really? That's fethed up, man.

That's no different than saying "I don't expect people to design stairless entrances to things so that the sub-walking class don't get left outside"

 azazel the cat wrote:
That's fethed up, man.

Sorry to say, but azazel sums it up nicely. Helping people who need help is not just an okay thing to do, it is a moral obligation. Yeah, I realize that "people who need help" is a charged category -- if you go back to page one, you can see that my concern about the wrist bands is that they will simply reinforce white privilege. How does a person with an advantage morally help someone at a disadvantage. The man himself said, "do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing."

I think we getting caught up in the discussion here...

I guess what I'm trying to articulate is that we live in a very heterogeneous society with multitude of sub-cultures. Based on the fickle Chaos God's whims, you may be born with disadvantages.

Are we getting too heated here?

 Manchu wrote:

 whembly wrote:
And in this case, what I'm saying is that these sorts of mental jujitsu doesn't help the cause.

It's not mental jiujitsu just because it's (apparently) hard for you to understand.

No, I understand what it means. What I'm advocating why are these concepts (ie, White Privilege) being bandied about? What's the true purpose?

Because, I really, REALLY think the "human" element is missing in these sorts of analysis.

It is a real difference. Our society is designed for people who can hear.

Yep.

Watch a person lose his hearing suddenly (currently happening with my father in law) and it will become obvious.

Yep... common enough.

Or see how an older person who was born deaf or became deaf early on in life (my grandmother) has in fact been treated as stupid and how that has in fact affected her throughout her whole life.

Hmmm... sound like my life. (lost my hearing when I was 18 mo old, so... I didn't really know what's it is like to have hearing... I count my blessing there).

 whembly wrote:
Just realize that I'm fething deaf and I don't need/deserve any special treatment. I understand that I'll have difficulties compared to others who can hear, but I'll adapt and overcome.

How exactly are you going to adapt?

Er... hard work? Use hearing aids? Have family to drop a ton of bricks on your if you enunciate the words wrong and make you repeat it correctly 5 times?

Learn to read lips --

Eh... that's an acquired skill there...

great, now what about telephone conversations?

Look up TTY... most hearing aids now have T-Coil, which is awesome sauce.

A relay system -- ah but that's not you adapting.

er..what?

It's not all boot straps.

Of course it isn't all "boot straps"... but, it mostly is.

We're human beings and we live in human communities. Those communities need to account for all of their members.

Operative word there is "should". But does it happen in the real world?

I've been raised to count only on myself and I had to learn to be assertive to get what I want/need.

We talk about "white" privilege because the privilege accrues to people who are perceived to be white. You say that this way of talking about privilege contributes to racism because it acknowledges that race exists. But it does exist. Take another look at the figures Polonius posted on page one. Now, by all means, explain to me what those figures mean if race does not exist. Acknowledging that race matters is necessary to begin dealing with the many negative consequences of racism.

 Manchu wrote:
We talk about "white" privilege because the privilege accrues to people who are perceived to be white. You say that this way of talking about privilege contributes to racism because it acknowledges that race exists. But it does exist. Take another look at the figures Polonius posted on page one. Now, by all means, explain to me what those figures mean if race does not exist. Acknowledging that race matters is necessary to begin dealing with the many negative consequences of racism.

LOL...

Full stop.

I'm not arguing that racism doesn't against.

I'm arguing that there's any significant "white privilege" inherent bias that can be ATTRIBUTED to the reason why those numbers look the way they do NOW in year 2013 (you'd have an argument for sure prior to '70s). It's over simplifying the problem.

whembly wrote:

That's no different than saying "I don't expect people to design stairless entrances to things so that the sub-walking class don't get left outside"

Do you need a reminder for that?

If I were an architect, yes. Absolutely. Assuming it wasn't already engraved into my brain. Same as when it comes to taking one flight of stairs in a parking garage vs. taking the elevator. Or using a normal stall rather than the handicapped variant in a public washroom.

I don't need a reminder of this because I like to think I'm aware of their necessity already. However, the idea of white privilege is not quite so obvious, and is utterly lost on some people. Hence, the wristband reminder.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

whembly wrote:I'm arguing that there's any significant "white privilege" inherent bias that can be ATTRIBUTED to the reason why those numbers look the way they do NOW in year 2013 (you'd have an argument for sure prior to '70s). It's over simplifying the problem.

MLK Jr Did not pull a Castellan Crowe and take away all of the racism with him in 1968, whembly.

 whembly wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
We talk about "white" privilege because the privilege accrues to people who are perceived to be white. You say that this way of talking about privilege contributes to racism because it acknowledges that race exists. But it does exist. Take another look at the figures Polonius posted on page one. Now, by all means, explain to me what those figures mean if race does not exist. Acknowledging that race matters is necessary to begin dealing with the many negative consequences of racism.

LOL...

Full stop.

I'm not arguing that racism doesn't against.

I'm arguing that there's any significant "white privilege" inherent bias that can be ATTRIBUTED to the reason why those numbers look the way they do NOW in year 2013 (you'd have an argument for sure prior to '70s). It's over simplifying the problem.

Except nobody in this thread, well at least those that think white privilege exists, argues that the privilege is the result of racism. Sure it exists, but there needn't be any conscious racism for whites to have an advantage.

 azazel the cat wrote:

whembly wrote:

That's no different than saying "I don't expect people to design stairless entrances to things so that the sub-walking class don't get left outside"

Do you need a reminder for that?

If I were an architect, yes. Absolutely. Assuming it wasn't already engraved into my brain. Same as when it comes to taking one flight of stairs in a parking garage vs. taking the elevator. Or using a normal stall rather than the handicapped variant in a public washroom.

I don't need a reminder of this because I like to think I'm aware of their necessity already. However, the idea of white privilege is not quite so obvious, and is utterly lost on some people. Hence, the wristband reminder.

Okay... I see where you're coming from.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

whembly wrote:I'm arguing that there's any significant "white privilege" inherent bias that can be ATTRIBUTED to the reason why those numbers look the way they do NOW in year 2013 (you'd have an argument for sure prior to '70s). It's over simplifying the problem.

MLK Jr Did not pull a Castellan Crowe and take away all of the racism with him in 1968, whembly.

funny...

So, are you implying that the institutional racism during MLK era still exist today?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Polonius wrote:

Except nobody in this thread, well at least those that think white privilege exists, argues that the privilege is the result of racism. Sure it exists, but there needn't be any conscious racism for whites to have an advantage.

Well... if it isn't racism (real, or subliminal)...

Wouldn't it be better to call it "Tribal Privilege"?

 daedalus wrote:
@Frazz: Actually, lefties appear to earn more money than right-handed folk.
http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_dismal_science/2006/08/sinister_and_rich.html

I can't wait until we tackle this left-handed privilege issue.

Lefties are so sinister.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
I like to pretend that racism doesn't exist anymore and white privilege isn't a thing. But then I go out in public with my wife and face reality. It's anecdotal, I know. But the amount of racist bullcrap I get to hear on a daily basis is just mind numbing. I quit one of the most rewarding activities I have ever done because of it, and it's a pretty sore spot for me.

Sorry dude...

So all the white folk can drum on complaining about political correctness run amok and how this is all made up stuff. But I will just lump all the "white privilege is BS" people in with the "men are discriminated against" crowd. Sorry if that offends anyone. They can deal with it the same way I deal with the hateful looks I get when this white guy holds hands with his black wife.

I'm not saying racism doesn't exists... of course it does, and I do feel bad that this happens to you and your wife.

One of my very good friend is black and is married to my ex's white sister. They see this too.

But wearing a braclet/put up postit notes/whatever "reminding" you that white privilege exists? That's just a but much.

Oh ye, there's lots of racism. I never said there wasn't, sadly.
But here's a positive. I see even less of it in my kid's generation. You have to have hope and keep pushing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:

 whembly wrote:
And in this case, what I'm saying is that these sorts of mental jujitsu doesn't help the cause.

It's not mental jiujitsu just because it's (apparently) hard for you to understand. It is a real difference. Our society is designed for people who can hear. Watch a person lose his hearing suddenly (currently happening with my father in law) and it will become obvious. Or see how an older person who was born deaf or became deaf early on in life (my grandmother) has in fact been treated as stupid and how that has in fact affected her throughout her whole life.

 whembly wrote:
Just realize that I'm fething deaf and I don't need/deserve any special treatment. I understand that I'll have difficulties compared to others who can hear, but I'll adapt and overcome.

How exactly are you going to adapt? Learn to read lips -- great, now what about telephone conversations? A relay system -- ah but that's not you adapting. It's not all boot straps. We're human beings and we live in human communities. Those communities need to account for all of their members.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Can we introduce social darwinism to this festering pile of gak?

Social darwinist ideology + racist ideology ... someone is trying to Godwin-bomb the thread.

Strangely my wife's BFF comes from a deaf family, married to a deaf guy, with an adopted deaf girl. They do pretty good. He's fortunate in that he doesn't hear the ruckus his his nonhearing impaired kids make. His response to your argument, when I put similar to him, is strictly "whatever, deal."

I think a better idea for the wrist band would be one that everyone wears. It would be transparent, and have the word "human" written on it. To help remind us that regardless of our skin colour we're all human, and should all treat each other with respect and care.

Well, that's my two hippie cents for the day.

In regards to "white advantage" i agree that in todays society there are advantages to being white, in certain situations. However, I believe advantage and opportunity should be separated, racial advantages do not only apply to white people, and that advantages aren't always based on race.

My group of friends at school had african, asian, polynesian and white people in it. We all had the same opportunities to receive a quality education. However, one of my friends family was a fair bit wealthier than some of the others. I believe he had more advantages in his upbringing due to his families wealth and the professions of his parents, had he chose to take advantage of them. Funnily enough, he wasn't white, he was samoan.

whembly wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:

whembly wrote:I'm arguing that there's any significant "white privilege" inherent bias that can be ATTRIBUTED to the reason why those numbers look the way they do NOW in year 2013 (you'd have an argument for sure prior to '70s). It's over simplifying the problem.

MLK Jr Did not pull a Castellan Crowe and take away all of the racism with him in 1968, whembly.

funny...

So, are you implying that the institutional racism during MLK era still exist today?

No, I'm overtly telling you that the de facto racism still exists today.

It's losing traction with each generation, but it's still there. You only need to google "N***** Venus cosplay" to see just how pervasive it still is (and a million other examples, but I just returned from a con so this one jumps to my mind).

 azazel the cat wrote:

whembly wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:

whembly wrote:I'm arguing that there's any significant "white privilege" inherent bias that can be ATTRIBUTED to the reason why those numbers look the way they do NOW in year 2013 (you'd have an argument for sure prior to '70s). It's over simplifying the problem.

MLK Jr Did not pull a Castellan Crowe and take away all of the racism with him in 1968, whembly.

funny...

So, are you implying that the institutional racism during MLK era still exist today?

No, I'm overtly telling you that the de facto racism still exists today.

It's losing traction with each generation, but it's still there. You only need to google "N***** Venus cosplay" to see just how pervasive it still is (and a million other examples, but I just returned from a con so this one jumps to my mind).

Aha... so, we're talking about something different then... right?

I mean, this is bad, right? Because of the obvious stereotyping eh?

 Frazzled wrote:

Lefties are so sinister.

Exalted.
Made this thread worth the read

 Manchu wrote:
Helping people who need help is not just an okay thing to do, it is a moral obligation.

No, it isn't.

whembly wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:

whembly wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:

whembly wrote:I'm arguing that there's any significant "white privilege" inherent bias that can be ATTRIBUTED to the reason why those numbers look the way they do NOW in year 2013 (you'd have an argument for sure prior to '70s). It's over simplifying the problem.

MLK Jr Did not pull a Castellan Crowe and take away all of the racism with him in 1968, whembly.

funny...

So, are you implying that the institutional racism during MLK era still exist today?

No, I'm overtly telling you that the de facto racism still exists today.

It's losing traction with each generation, but it's still there. You only need to google "N***** Venus cosplay" to see just how pervasive it still is (and a million other examples, but I just returned from a con so this one jumps to my mind).

Aha... so, we're talking about something different then... right?

I mean, this is bad, right? Because of the obvious stereotyping eh?

Huh? I don't follow.

Are you trying to say that you've been making your statements about the nonexistance of "white privilege" for the last 4 pages of this thread based on the fact that there's almost no more institutionalized racism in the US? I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that's not the case, because it would take an impossibly stupid person to believe that Manchu & I have been promoting the idea that Jim Crow laws still exist today.

I also don't understand exactly what your stereotyping bit is getting at. Is that meant to be an example of de facto racism? Because if so... maybe?

 Seaward wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Helping people who need help is not just an okay thing to do, it is a moral obligation.

No, it isn't.

Actually it's kind of the definition of a moral obligation.

Seaward wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Helping people who need help is not just an okay thing to do, it is a moral obligation.

No, it isn't.

Please enlighten me as to how you don't consider "helping those who need help" to be a moral obligation. I'm really eager to hear your justification.