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i'm aware of that

now look at the model. The missile silo is in a recessed shaft inside a bunker with blast walls all around it.

It doesn't have LOS to anything, except a really close by VERY tall building or ships in orbit,

It's not that it can't fire direct so much as that it is impossible to draw LOS directly from it to anything on the ground.

I have the model next to me.

You have to be inside the building to shoot the missile silo, and the bunker has fire points for the models inside to shoot out of. Thats where LoS is drawn from.

Find me a firepoint in the Bunker Annex building.

The walkway building has them, but the bunker annexes do not.

These are Emplaced Weapons in any case, They use the BS of the firer and the LOS of the weapon. Pg 96.

They are not Weapon Emplacements, which use different rules.

The hoods of the angels on the sloped facings, just like the 4 angels on the central tower's faces.

Thats what I've always treated as Firepoints.

So the model itself is the cause to issue. What if I made my own model to fix some issues.

Like instead of it being on legs it was on a pile of rocks. So when getting up or down it made more sense as there was a small slope all the way around.

That would be fine.

The specific issue is models can be both below and on top of it at the same time. Without the specific Ruin rules applying to it things break down.

Ruins have rules allowing models to be above and below each other, non-ruins don't.

 Ascalam wrote:
Find me a firepoint in the Bunker Annex building.

The walkway building has them, but the bunker annexes do not.

These are Emplaced Weapons in any case, They use the BS of the firer and the LOS of the weapon. Pg 96.

They are not Weapon Emplacements, which use different rules.

I'm not entirely sure, but those hoods can be used as FPs, they're about Space Marine height so it's not any real elevation difference. The main thing I would use on the FoR is the TL Icarus LC as AA, since Daemons have pitiful anti-air. Skulltaker on the Missiles, assuming he can get LOS from... somewhere ensures an almost perfect shot every time. I'm interested in seeing h ow this plays out, though this may call for a different thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
That would be fine.

The specific issue is models can be both below and on top of it at the same time. Without the specific Ruin rules applying to it things break down.

Ruins have rules allowing models to be above and below each other, non-ruins don't.

The problem is that we know exactly what it is (it's just a landing platform), but the rules don't cover that sort of thing. This is where the playtesters not being concerned about tight rules and making everything "cinematic" really bogs down the game.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The hoods of the angels on the sloped facings, just like the 4 angels on the central tower's faces.

Thats what I've always treated as Firepoints.

You could treat them as such, but they aren't. IMO. The actual fire slits are cut right through the model. You can see through them. Arbritrarily declaring random statuary as firepoints seems a little off to me.

If you assemble the bunker with the skulls and swords/scroll facings instead would you be counting the skull's eyes and the sword' quillions as fire points? You could equally claim that every skull on the plinth is a fire point, then. Not all buildings have to have fire-points, but if you can convince your opponent to agree, then more power to you.

The LOS is still from the weapon in any case, ie straight up, as you aim along the barrel (ie the warheads).

But on the flipside, where are fire points ever defined?

They arn't, they are simply whatever the model has. Nothing prevents you from saying the ornamental angel heads are fire points too. Which is well within reason IMO, and many other people have a similar viewpoint. There was a thread on this when 6th edition first came out too.


Unlike vehicles, the FoR and Bastions rules never say how many Fire Points the building has. So thats another issue, we don't know how many there are supposed to be. So you can't ever say "The angel heads are not fire points"

True enough, which is why i said IMO

The ports along the side of the walkway are clearly firepoints, as they are armoured slits you can see through, at shoulder height (to shoot through).

The bracer decoration and statue heads on the tower - less clearly so. If you can convince your opponent, as i said, more power to you

I wouldn't be inclined to agree if i was playing (as to me they look like decoration only, not fire-ports) , but others might, and that's cool too.

I have thought about taking one for my napoleonic themed foot guard,but the quad gun won out over it,that and I am not sure how much I could fit on it.Now if you could take it and a quad gun,,,,

As for it being a dick move to take,,,,,hey whats wrong with IG troopers with a 4plus invulnerable save(insert evil laugh)

With so many people taking flier spam,thats rather like calling the kettle black.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
The rules are whacky and leave a lot of unanswered questions, but the bigger reason is its common knowledge that its a dick move to bring it. 4+ invul for a gunline that also elevates you for 75pts? Way, way too good for the cost. They mess up charges, provide awesome line of sight, and an impossible to remove invul save (only ones i know of are melee that ignore it) so vehicles gain one hell of a benefit from it, not to mention squishy guns like lootas.

None of us run it in my group, and the few times someone tries to we raise hell about it because it is seriously a dick move to bring that.

I wouldn't call it a dick move, in the end its a 4+ save. you have a 50/50 chance to fail it. More than melee ignore it, it's only enemy shooting attacks. so you can still malediction them, vector strike them, blow up a vehicle on it, just shoot the heck out of them and they will die.

its mainly the assaulting thing that's painful.

Try playing with a ork horde army against anti ork teched imperial guard gunline against it. If i see that thing while unpacking i immediatly start packing. I dont mind a hard game or losing,.. but practicly buying your win for less then 100 points,.. na-aha

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
The rules are whacky and leave a lot of unanswered questions, but the bigger reason is its common knowledge that its a dick move to bring it. 4+ invul for a gunline that also elevates you for 75pts? Way, way too good for the cost. They mess up charges, provide awesome line of sight, and an impossible to remove invul save (only ones i know of are melee that ignore it) so vehicles gain one hell of a benefit from it, not to mention squishy guns like lootas.

None of us run it in my group, and the few times someone tries to we raise hell about it because it is seriously a dick move to bring that.

I wouldn't call it a dick move, in the end its a 4+ save. you have a 50/50 chance to fail it. More than melee ignore it, it's only enemy shooting attacks. so you can still malediction them, vector strike them, blow up a vehicle on it, just shoot the heck out of them and they will die.

its mainly the assaulting thing that's painful.

Try playing with a ork horde army against anti ork teched imperial guard gunline against it. If i see that thing while unpacking i immediatly start packing. I dont mind a hard game or losing,.. but practicly buying your win for less then 100 points,.. na-aha

ya that's harsh. But lootas are still the best answer there. Or go speed freak, and do your best evil laugh as you run a battle wagon up there to tank shock his units and ram his tank Then point out he doesn't get the shields invuln save against the rolla, nor his vehicles blowing up Plus with the shield probably being packed and he won't be able to move all the models out from under the wagon, those will get removed from play. so try to land with his HQ under the wagon. Then your wagon gets the invuln save when he tries to shoot you off from there. a lil bit of list tailoring never hurt

Bring big huge solid terrain and place it 3" away from the shield to block most of his LOS.

The horde answer is KFF, stay behind that big piece of solid terrain you placed, then get under the shield. Call you Waaagh! Poke one boys head out til he can see the unit you want to assault. Declare you charge, only the ork that's looking will die as he won't has LOS to any other boys. Pile up onto the shield where ever you'll fit and put the rest on the shield wall so they fall into his troops Multi assault if you have to, they're guard, they're squishy anyways

Then place any objectives you get in area terrain/blocking LOS to the shield, and go to ground on it. with a good portion of his army on the shield, he'll have a hard time trying to force you off from the objectives. he can't put objectives on the shield.

the shield is really no different than being in a ruin, or behind a wall, except those on the shield rarely want to leave it.