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Hey Dakka

If I add allies to my main force and they are allies of convenience, or even desperate allies can they still score for me? I read the rule book and it says they count as enemy models, so could that possibly mean that they score for my opponent and not me instead. :O

Thanks

This needs to be in YMDC,

But to answer your question..

'Desperate Allies are treated exactly like Allies of
Convenience. Furthermore, if your primary detachment is in
a desperate alliance, units from that allied detachment are nonscoring,
non-denial units'. Page 112

So allies of convience can score, desperate allies can't.

I'd argue that this is one of the most poorly worded rules in the entire rulebook. Personally, I like the opinion that they don't score. My FLGS takes the view that they both score AND contest if you have both primary and secondary units nearby. Some argue (not very well) that you they're treated as if they're just as scoring as units from your primary.

A real mess, it is.

 Ailaros wrote:
I'd argue that this is one of the most poorly worded rules in the entire rulebook. Personally, I like the opinion that they don't score. My FLGS takes the view that they both score AND contest if you have both primary and secondary units nearby. Some argue (not very well) that you they're treated as if they're just as scoring as units from your primary.

A real mess, it is.

'Desperate Allies are treated exactly like Allies of
Convenience. Furthermore, if your primary detachment is in
a desperate alliance, units from that allied detachment are nonscoring,
non-denial units'. Page 112


You primary detachment is in an alliance with a Desperate ally, they are non scoring, non denial units. That seems pretty cut and dry to me...?

What am I missing that is a mess?

Eldercaveman wrote:
What am I missing that is a mess?

Some people argue that allies of convenience can't score because your units treat them as enemy units, and they'll even contest an objective that a scoring unit from your primary detachment is holding. These people miss the fact that it's blatantly against RAI (otherwise why specifically mention that desperate allies don't score or deny), and against RAW since your units are not the ones adding up objective claims. The best thing to do is play it RAW: allies of convenience and battle brothers are treated just like any other unit in your army for scoring/denial purposes.

Of course really it's a non-issue since the rules are perfectly clear, it's just one of those things where someone started saying "it's unclear, GW sucks" and everyone else just repeats the complaints without ever bothering to check the actual rules.

ok, thanks guys about that. I'll assume that they can score because the wording on desperate allies specifies that desperate ones can't, making it seem like convenient ones can.

Oh, and sorry about putting it in the wrong place. I wasn't really thinking

 Peregrine wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
What am I missing that is a mess?

Some people argue that allies of convenience can't score because your units treat them as enemy units, and they'll even contest an objective that a scoring unit from your primary detachment is holding. These people miss the fact that it's blatantly against RAI (otherwise why specifically mention that desperate allies don't score or deny), and against RAW since your units are not the ones adding up objective claims. The best thing to do is play it RAW: allies of convenience and battle brothers are treated just like any other unit in your army for scoring/denial purposes.

Of course really it's a non-issue since the rules are perfectly clear, it's just one of those things where someone started saying "it's unclear, GW sucks" and everyone else just repeats the complaints without ever bothering to check the actual rules.

Yeah, mountains and mole hills spring to mind. People often forget GW don't get lawyers to proof read every single word in their books, and we as a player base have far more time and eyes to scrutinise their choices of words, and sometimes, it just creates non-existent problems.

 Peregrine wrote:

Some people argue that allies of convenience can't score because your units treat them as enemy units, and they'll even contest an objective that a scoring unit from your primary detachment is holding. These people miss the fact that it's blatantly against RAI (otherwise why specifically mention that desperate allies don't score or deny), and against RAW since your units are not the ones adding up objective claims. The best thing to do is play it RAW: allies of convenience and battle brothers are treated just like any other unit in your army for scoring/denial purposes.

Of course really it's a non-issue since the rules are perfectly clear, it's just one of those things where someone started saying "it's unclear, GW sucks" and everyone else just repeats the complaints without ever bothering to check the actual rules.

Only the developers know what the RAI truly are, and RAW are up for discussion.
Just because Desperate Allies are non scoring, non denial units, does not automatically mean Allies of Convenience are scoring, denial units.
I would argue that the writen rule that they are treated as enemy units takes precedence over the inferred rule that they are scoring units.
Hence they are not scoring units.

Just because desperate allies rules are worded awkwardly doesn't mean that different rules for allies of convenience are any different than the way that they're worded.

Enemy units is enemy units, regardless of what other rules say.

 Frank&Stein wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Some people argue that allies of convenience can't score because your units treat them as enemy units, and they'll even contest an objective that a scoring unit from your primary detachment is holding. These people miss the fact that it's blatantly against RAI (otherwise why specifically mention that desperate allies don't score or deny), and against RAW since your units are not the ones adding up objective claims. The best thing to do is play it RAW: allies of convenience and battle brothers are treated just like any other unit in your army for scoring/denial purposes.

Of course really it's a non-issue since the rules are perfectly clear, it's just one of those things where someone started saying "it's unclear, GW sucks" and everyone else just repeats the complaints without ever bothering to check the actual rules.

Only the developers know what the RAI truly are, and RAW are up for discussion.
Just because Desperate Allies are non scoring, non denial units, does not automatically mean Allies of Convenience are scoring, denial units.
I would argue that the writen rule that they are treated as enemy units takes precedence over the inferred rule that they are scoring units.
Hence they are not scoring units.

So you are saying enemy units can't score? How does any one ever win? Some one is always an enemy unit of someone.....

Does anything in the rule book say 'enemy' unit can't score for the controlling player?

Desperate specifically mentions they are not scoring.

 Ailaros wrote:
Just because desperate allies rules are worded awkwardly doesn't mean that different rules for allies of convenience are any different than the way that they're worded.

Enemy units is enemy units, regardless of what other rules say.

And... who treats them like enemy units - you or your army?

Who has to check to see if you're holding an objective - you or your army?

 Ailaros wrote:
Just because desperate allies rules are worded awkwardly doesn't mean that different rules for allies of convenience are any different than the way that they're worded.

Enemy units is enemy units, regardless of what other rules say.

Stop ignoring the actual rules context, which is not that they are "Enemy units", full stop
Who treats them as enemy units - you, or your army?
Who determines who has won - you, or yuor army?

Note: if you answer "your army" to the second question, then please ask how "your army" determines First Blood, without any external overall reference

The RAW is actually clear on this, once you read all the rules and dont jsut cherry pick single words (like "enemy") out of sentences