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This I am working around with Iron Warriors theme. I did want to include some things but because of the mechanic of how they work I left them out, namely the Forgefiends/Maulerfiends.

HQ

CHAOS LORD- Goes in DT Land Raider w/ Terminators up the field
TDA
Skalathrax
Sigil of Corruption

WARPSMITH- Goes with the Blood Disciples(Converted Space Wolves) behind LR for protection waiting for charge range/repair the LR


ELITES

CHAOS TERMINATORS (4)- Ride in DT Land Raider
IOV
CF
Combi-Melta

LAND RAIDER (DT)
Dirge Caster

HELBRUTE- Hang back protecting/firing near Havocs
Reaper Autocannon
Power Scourge


TROOPS

IRON WARRIORS (15)- Foot slog to mid field capture points
Plasma gun
Meltagun
Vets


IRON WARRIORS (15)-Foot slog to mid field capture points
Plasma gun
Meltagun
Vets


BLOOD DISCIPLES(8)-Use LR to cover and move behind w/ Warpsmith
CCW
Meltagun
Mark of Khorne
IOV


CHAOS CULTISTS (10)- hang back and cover down on nearest point
Flamer



FAST ATTACK

HELDRAKE- Do what it does
Baleflamer



HEAVY SUPPORT

HAVOCS (5)- Vehicle popping fun!
Lascannon (4)
Vets


VINDICATOR
Siege Shield- Give a choice between bringing down the LR w/ Terms or take on some Demolisher Cannon to face


- Need to add some things based off this number? Was thinking of trying to make room for power weapons on the Aspiring Champions for challenges? Any suggestions?
1976

I like it. A lot of people are going to tell you to spam drakes or cultists, but I love that this seems very balanced and flexible.

My only criticism is having a plasma gun amd melta gun in the same squad. I knkw why you're doing it, though given that they're footsloggers I can't see that mg actually popping amy tanks, as enemy armour will always manage to keep out of range of it.

 kitch102 wrote:
My only criticism is having a plasma gun amd melta gun in the same squad. I knkw why you're doing it, though given that they're footsloggers I can't see that mg actually popping amy tanks, as enemy armour will always manage to keep out of range of it.

I agree with kitch, you might as well pay the extra points to have two PG instead of a mix. If you are concerned about armour, remember you have the Havocs and the LR.

I wouldn't recommend power weapons for the Asp Champs (imo, I think it is a waste of points for a 1W model in power armour).

What about adding on LCs for the Terminators (if you're concerned that LCs aren't part of IWs, read the novel Siege of Castellax)? They could use the re-roll for wounds seeing how they will probably be outnumbered and it is an extremely cheap upgrade... Now that i think about it a HF wouldn't hurt either.

Hope this helps.

As mentioned before, the melta/plasma combo is not a good one. They go after completely different targets. I would suggest taking one squad with two meltas and one with two plasmas.

The 15 man squads are not ideal either. Honestly the chaos space marine is one of worst things to take in the codex. Their benefit is that they are cheap, but because they are cheap they can't do too much. If you kit them out to do things they get expensive and hence lose the benefit of being cheap. With the price you pay for one unit you feel like they need to go up the field to do something, but they actually can't do much. They don't bring enough dakka for shooting and they stink in assault. So if you keep them in the rear with the gear they're expensive objective holders. So they suffer the same issue as regular tactical marines, without the benefit of ATSKNF. I really have no idea what to do with them. The best they have done is smaller 7 man squads with a rhino.

I know the rhino seems terrible, but it's honestly the best protection from S5, S6 shooting that's very abundant right now. Plus it offers protection against heldrakes. With being able to go flat out, you have 18 inch range which isn't too shabby. Plus, rhinos are very fluffy for Iron Warriors. So if you would like to keep the beefier CSM squads with special weapons, I recommend dropping them down to 10 guys and sticking them in a rhino.

The helbrute will accomplish very little with just a two shot autocannon. For basically the same cost you can get an autocannon havok squad which can put out 8 shots vs 2. If you want to keep the brute, I recommend the lascannon. It can actually blow things up. Or get another vindicator. They work well in pairs. Then you can push up the two vindis and the landraider and make your opponent think about what he wants to target. The landraider that's going to unload some pain on him or the two S10 pie plates.

I would think about giving the lord terminator armor. It gives you the flexibility of deep striking together if necessary. Maybe jam the CCS marines into the raider to keep them safe with the warpsmith.

I think all the changes I suggest keep things fluffy, but optimize what the army can do cohesively.

I agree with above, i would double plasma the marine squad, i would also drop the hel brute, and if it were me, try to get another vindicator, two is always better than one, and will increase the survivability of both.

bogalubov wrote:
As mentioned before, the melta/plasma combo is not a good one. They go after completely different targets. I would suggest taking one squad with two meltas and one with two plasmas.

The 15 man squads are not ideal either. Honestly the chaos space marine is one of worst things to take in the codex. Their benefit is that they are cheap, but because they are cheap they can't do too much. If you kit them out to do things they get expensive and hence lose the benefit of being cheap. With the price you pay for one unit you feel like they need to go up the field to do something, but they actually can't do much. They don't bring enough dakka for shooting and they stink in assault. So if you keep them in the rear with the gear they're expensive objective holders. So they suffer the same issue as regular tactical marines, without the benefit of ATSKNF. I really have no idea what to do with them. The best they have done is smaller 7 man squads with a rhino.

I know the rhino seems terrible, but it's honestly the best protection from S5, S6 shooting that's very abundant right now. Plus it offers protection against heldrakes. With being able to go flat out, you have 18 inch range which isn't too shabby. Plus, rhinos are very fluffy for Iron Warriors. So if you would like to keep the beefier CSM squads with special weapons, I recommend dropping them down to 10 guys and sticking them in a rhino.

The helbrute will accomplish very little with just a two shot autocannon. For basically the same cost you can get an autocannon havok squad which can put out 8 shots vs 2. If you want to keep the brute, I recommend the lascannon. It can actually blow things up. Or get another vindicator. They work well in pairs. Then you can push up the two vindis and the landraider and make your opponent think about what he wants to target. The landraider that's going to unload some pain on him or the two S10 pie plates.

I would think about giving the lord terminator armor. It gives you the flexibility of deep striking together if necessary. Maybe jam the CCS marines into the raider to keep them safe with the warpsmith.

I think all the changes I suggest keep things fluffy, but optimize what the army can do cohesively.

The only thing I was worried about with the Rhinos was that they give up "First Blood" all the time don't they? I have read a lot about them being blown up first turn, but, on the other hand the FB won't matter much if I can own the rest of the game. I will consider this and relook the point cost. The reason I went with 15 models was that they would be less subject to obliteration on their "march of death" to the objectives..lol. I didn't think about S5/S6 being abundant in armies now with the new rules so I might have to read a bit more on that.
I thought alot about the Helbrute versus another Havoc squad. To be honest, I could probably come up with another squad, but with the whole, "bitz sale removal", dont know if you have read that yet? GW has prohibited the sale of bitz anymore so I don't know if they plan to sell them themselves, but I start looking at a really expensive squad to create with 4 autocannons. Just my thought, and, I already had the stuff for a Helbrute. Maybe turning him into a fully ranged Helbrute with addition of missle launcher? Or maybe the Lascannon addition.
I would love to add another Vindi in there, let me look at that, I will get back whence I crunch the numbers a little. I just love the way they look,...
WOW, just looked at the rules for Terminator Armor, guess I was missing the fact that they lumped all the additional "rules" under that. Bought it through electronic format, so had to dig a little to understand that. Maybe I can up the CCW squad. A question though? If I take the LR as a dedicated transport, it doesnt count toward the troop chart, then can I bring it anyways without my Terms in it to deep strike them later? Then throw my Blood Disciples in the LR and roll them up the field? Because if I take a LR, Havocs, and 2 Vindi's that 4 Heavys. So, is that ok to do or do I need to just work on the Helbrute? Just curious, THANKS!

Don't worry about the bits companies. All they have to do is say that they're selling their own left over pieces. They don't get trade discount so gws rule can't and wont apply to them.

For a "cheap" and easy to procure autocannon squad, get the forge world ac's, they're like £12 for 5 I think and look pretty awesome

Ah ok, yea didn't even dawn on me to get them through ForgeWorld.
I am working the points for the adjustments suggested, should post in a little bit,....

 TBone wrote:
Ah ok, yea didn't even dawn on me to get them through ForgeWorld.
I am working the points for the adjustments suggested, should post in a little bit,....

I don't know if you collect any other armies, but I found that a great, cheap way to make autocannon havoks is to use the stubber from Imperial vehicle kits. If you have friends that play guard, they should have a bunch of these lying around too. All you have to do is drill out a hole in a right hand bolter holding arm, stick the pointy end of the stubber through there. Then drill out a small hole in the middle of the stubber and put in a small piece of plastic tubing/green stuff there and use the left bolter holding arm to support the weapon.

Here are some quick, poor pics of the guys that I made.

Hey, thanks for the great ideas on the Autocannons, I worked up a couple differents varients of what army I started with. I think I like this one, it covers everything already said, as much as I possibly could anyhow:

HQ
CHAOS LORD- Deep Striking with the Terms
TDA
Skalathrax
Sigil of Corruption

WARPSMITH- w/ Blood Disciples in LR, which Terms took as DT, but will Deep Strike Instead


ELITES
CHAOS TERMINATORS (4)- Deep Strike
IOV
CF
Combi-Melta

LAND RAIDER (DT)- Will haul the Warpsmith + Blood Disciples up the field for some CCW fun
Dirge Caster

TROOPS
IRON WARRIORS (8)- Objectives/Chaos Causing Fun!
Rhino w/ Havoc Launcher
Plasma gun
Vets

IRON WARRIORS (8)- Objectives/Chaos Causing Fun!
Rhino w/ Havoc Launcher
Plasma gun
Vets

IRON WARRIORS (8)- Objectives/Chaos Causing Fun!(Death March w/ no Transport)
Plasma gun
Vets

Blood Disciples (8)- jump on in the LR and roll down the field with the Warpsmith looking for some CCW action
CCW
Meltagun
Mark of Khorne
IOV

CHAOS CULTISTS (10)- Sit on home objective and try not to die...
Flamer

FAST ATTACK
HELDRAKE- Do what it does...
Baleflamer

HEAVY SUPPORT
HAVOCS (5)- Vehicle poppin fun
Lascannon (4)

HAVOCS (5)- Causing shinanagans...
Autocannons(4)

VINDICATOR- move to devistator range..
Siege Shield


1998

Look pretty good! Some suggestions, take the IoV off the terminators, the lord is fearless, and they don't need it.

Put dozer blades on the land raider, never leave with out those.

And maybe find the points to give your warpsmith mok and the axe of blind fury!

My two cents

Since when can CSM take dedicated transports?

Brainlock wrote:
Since when can CSM take dedicated transports?

Since like 4e? lr for termies rhinos for troops, chosen, prolly even possessed dont have dex on me.

Id drop sigil of corrup on the lord. Hes already got a 5++ from the termie amr. Its a bit of a waste.

At 13 pts base csm vanilla marines almost rival grey hunters (economical) and are very good in 6e. At 140pts (again not pos. no dex) 10w 3+ t4 is not that easy to shift- sure all armies CAN do it but with everything else you got they make for a pretty survivable and cheap troop choice. Bolters arent bad and the double tap, then get assaulted and double tap overwatch isnt bad at all. After that they're not terrible in cc. Fearless is over rated. Its weird to get use to troops falling back and whatever but its not as bad as it looks. Resist the urge to put all the fancy junk on em and youve got a reliable backfield scoring unit.

4x Lascannon havoks arent as useful as MoN votlw oblits (164 for 2). 1 lascanon havs are to expensive (best thing about auto havoks is $$), 2 they arent mobile enough to get good shots the entire game vs deepstrike and slow and purp (unless youve got a tower which you wont always have), 3 oblits are more flexible and will keep being useful long after they have multi'd whatever av is around, 4 oblits with t5 2+ 5++ 2w are hard to shift.

I tried the warpsmith a bit. I found he was pretty expensive for his statline. His shatter defences was sometimes cool but his curse/repair thing was meh. Just another lord was more effective for me- the i5 extra wound and buffed ws... (i called him nurgle with TA and use the warpsmith model).

Ithani wrote:

Brainlock wrote:
Since when can CSM take dedicated transports?

Since like 4e? lr for termies rhinos for troops, chosen, prolly even possessed dont have dex on me.

Id drop sigil of corrup on the lord. Hes already got a 5++ from the termie amr. Its a bit of a waste.

At 13 pts base csm vanilla marines almost rival grey hunters (economical) and are very good in 6e. At 140pts (again not pos. no dex) 10w 3+ t4 is not that easy to shift- sure all armies CAN do it but with everything else you got they make for a pretty survivable and cheap troop choice. Bolters arent bad and the double tap, then get assaulted and double tap overwatch isnt bad at all. After that they're not terrible in cc. Fearless is over rated. Its weird to get use to troops falling back and whatever but its not as bad as it looks. Resist the urge to put all the fancy junk on em and youve got a reliable backfield scoring unit.

4x Lascannon havoks arent as useful as MoN votlw oblits (164 for 2). 1 lascanon havs are to expensive (best thing about auto havoks is $$), 2 they arent mobile enough to get good shots the entire game vs deepstrike and slow and purp (unless youve got a tower which you wont always have), 3 oblits are more flexible and will keep being useful long after they have multi'd whatever av is around, 4 oblits with t5 2+ 5++ 2w are hard to shift.

I tried the warpsmith a bit. I found he was pretty expensive for his statline. His shatter defences was sometimes cool but his curse/repair thing was meh. Just another lord was more effective for me- the i5 extra wound and buffed ws... (i called him nurgle with TA and use the warpsmith model).

I think lascannon havoks can be useful if you bring a bastion. Since you can fire two models through each window you can stash them inside and get great sight lines on the battle field. Plus they get protection.

Ithani wrote:
4 oblits with t5 2+ 5++ 2w are hard to shift.

Assuming you meant 2x2 Oblits, yes?
What (if anything) would you throw into the third Heavy spot? (if only using single force org)
Vindicator? Havoks? ... a third 2 man Oblit squad?

I'm sorry, ignore the derp-titude...

Ithani wrote:

Brainlock wrote:
Since when can CSM take dedicated transports?

Since like 4e? lr for termies rhinos for troops, chosen, prolly even possessed dont have dex on me.

Id drop sigil of corrup on the lord. Hes already got a 5++ from the termie amr. Its a bit of a waste.

At 13 pts base csm vanilla marines almost rival grey hunters (economical) and are very good in 6e. At 140pts (again not pos. no dex) 10w 3+ t4 is not that easy to shift- sure all armies CAN do it but with everything else you got they make for a pretty survivable and cheap troop choice. Bolters arent bad and the double tap, then get assaulted and double tap overwatch isnt bad at all. After that they're not terrible in cc. Fearless is over rated. Its weird to get use to troops falling back and whatever but its not as bad as it looks. Resist the urge to put all the fancy junk on em and youve got a reliable backfield scoring unit.

4x Lascannon havoks arent as useful as MoN votlw oblits (164 for 2). 1 lascanon havs are to expensive (best thing about auto havoks is $$), 2 they arent mobile enough to get good shots the entire game vs deepstrike and slow and purp (unless youve got a tower which you wont always have), 3 oblits are more flexible and will keep being useful long after they have multi'd whatever av is around, 4 oblits with t5 2+ 5++ 2w are hard to shift.

I tried the warpsmith a bit. I found he was pretty expensive for his statline. His shatter defences was sometimes cool but his curse/repair thing was meh. Just another lord was more effective for me- the i5 extra wound and buffed ws... (i called him nurgle with TA and use the warpsmith model).

Ok, got the bastion in here now for my havocs. The Oblits were on the heavier cost side, so going to stick with the cheaper havocs. Dropped the Sigil, dropped all the banners and replaced with Vets, may not be fearless but it is a better chance to pass the morale tests...think this will be the final list...wont be able to test for a few months..waiting on some things to get here....

HQ
CHAOS LORD- TDA- Skalathrax- PF
*Deep Strike w/ Terms

WARPSMITH- Aura of Dark Glory
*In LR w/ Blood Disciples

ELITES
CHAOS TERMINATORS (4)- LC- CF- Combi-Melta
*Deep Stike w/ Lord

LAND RAIDER (DT)- Dirge Caster- Dozer Blade
*carry Warpsmith + Blood Diciples

TROOPS
IRON WARRIORS (8)- Rhino w/ Havoc Launcher- Plasma gun- Vets
*move towards objectives

IRON WARRIORS (8)- Rhino w/ Havoc Launcher- Plasma gun- Vets
*move towards objectives

IRON WARRIORS (8)- Plasma gun- Vets
*sit on home objectives

BLOOD DISCIPLES (8)- CCW- Meltagun- Mark of Khorne- Vets
*move in LR w/ Warpsmith

FAST ATTACK
HELDRAKE- Baleflamer
*burn up things

HEAVY SUPPORT
HAVOCS (5)- Lascannon (4)- Vets
*sit in bastion firing

HAVOCS (5)- Autocannons(4)- Vets
*covering fire

VINDICATOR- Siege Shield
*move to range support

IMPERIAL BASTION- Comms Relay
*Comms for rerolls / support for protection
1998

Try that list a few times and see how it feels. I think you might be able to jig your troops a little more still just with the idea that your squads can be slightly more specialised to roles:

-aka a small squad of 5 marines 75 points in a rhino with a havok for holding your home objective and a squad of 10 marines with vets and 2 plasma guns in a rhino (no havok) for pushing the midfield. Think itd be roughly the same cost and possibly more effective.

Do the blood diciples need a melta if the smith already has one? 5e i woulda said 2 meltas is required for av but 6e- im not so sure. And you have a Bastion with 4lasc...

And can you get votlw and MoK on the warpsmith? from memory that gives him like 6 attacks on the charge - nb at all as most cc wont be able to deal with 2+ at initiative. I think thats worth losing a havok launcher.

And vets and Mok on the lord too? or Mon for survivability even? unless your trying to keep it unmarked.