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Can we get a complete and total definition of a facing of a vehicle?

Make an imaginary rectangle around a vehicle and diagonal lines connecting the corners. Each quadrant formed is a facing of the vehicle.

 Tarrasq wrote:
Make an imaginary rectangle around a vehicle and diagonal lines connecting the corners. Each quadrant formed is a facing of the vehicle.

Ok I'll ellaborate, you've chosen your facing, front, side, rear doesn't matter. What classes as cover 25% of that facing?

Covering... 25% of the ... hull?

I'm really not sure what you're asking.

A Facing of a vehicle is described in the BRB, Check the reference section for "Vehicle Facing" and look up the answer for yourself.

rigeld2 wrote:Covering... 25% of the ... hull?

I'm really not sure what you're asking.

Eboncrow wrote:A Facing of a vehicle is described in the BRB, Check the reference section for "Vehicle Facing" and look up the answer for yourself.

Ok I was trying to draw out an answer without the context to influence people if they already have preconsieved opinions. Buuutttt since that's not working I'll got straight to the point....


Soulgrinder. Behind an ADL. (Yes here it comes)

Ok so it covers 25% of the height of the model. But defiantly not 25% of the mass of the facing? So what defines a facing? If it is just covering at least 25% of the height of the model, could I put a lamp post that is a least 25% as a high as my rhino and just forget abiout the rest of the facing on each side? No of course I can't, that would be ridicoulous.

So when then does a Soulgrinder get to claim its height is enough for cover? If i was to slice the soulgrinder where the ADL gives it cover and doesn;t, then slice the front of these models off, and melt them down seperatly, I guarentee there would be more plastic in the upper portion than the lower one, so surely that isn't 25%?

TLOS.

If it was me, I'd give it the cover 90% of the time. Just because its not worth fighting over.

The question is how you handle non-rectangular vehicles.

1) Is a "facing" defined by a rectangular box that surrounds the model, or just by the surface area of the model? If you want to have cover, do you need to obscure 25% of the visible area of the model, or just 25% of the box surrounding it?

2) For something like an Eldar Falcon where do you draw the lines to determine a facing (since you can't go corner to corner)?

Etc.

 Peregrine wrote:
The question is how you handle non-rectangular vehicles.

1) Is a "facing" defined by a rectangular box that surrounds the model, or just by the surface area of the model? If you want to have cover, do you need to obscure 25% of the visible area of the model, or just 25% of the box surrounding it?

2) For something like an Eldar Falcon where do you draw the lines to determine a facing (since you can't go corner to corner)?

Etc.

Exactly, so back to my original question, define a facing?

Picture example: which outline is used to define the total "facing" which has to be 25% covered: the red rectangle defining a box around the front of the model, or the smaller blue shape that follows the hull of the model. And, if we had cover which comes up to the black line would we count the space between the tracks underneath the Rhino (inside the red box, outside the blue box) towards the 25% requirement?

 Peregrine wrote:
Picture example: which outline is used to define the total "facing" which has to be 25% covered: the red rectangle defining a box around the front of the model, or the smaller blue shape that follows the hull of the model. And, if we had cover which comes up to the black line would we count the space between the tracks underneath the Rhino (inside the red box, outside the blue box) towards the 25% requirement?

Very good example, could you do that with a Soulgrinder for the example?


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Ok i've given this a go my self using this picture of a Soulgrinder behind an ADL as a reference




I've given rough outlines using the above photo, red is the imaginary 'rectangle' Blue is the literal curves of the model, and green line is a medium line for the ADL




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Reference picture is taken from this thread, page 13 half way down, can't miss it.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/511116.page

Assuming the picture given is the true line of sight reference from the firing model, then I'd give them the cover save. That's just me, of course. I tend to buckle in the face of opposition.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Assuming the picture given is the true line of sight reference from the firing model, then I'd give them the cover save. That's just me, of course. I tend to buckle in the face of opposition.[/quote

Would you be happen to compromise with a roll off at the beginning of the game to decide how it is to be played?

Eldercaveman wrote:
Can we get a complete and total definition of a facing of a vehicle?

No....

Looking at that picture, there is absolutely no way that 25% of that model is in cover.

 marv335 wrote:
Looking at that picture, there is absolutely no way that 25% of that model is in cover.

And that model has been strategically placed so the higher points are on the model and not just covering the gap

I started a thread on this a while back (found here!).
General opinion was 25% of the total surface area of a facing was needed rather than 25% of the height of the model. So in this case, no cover save would be given.

Also note that your rough outline is incorrect.
Decorative items are ignored. Which means al the blades and pointy bits are not counted for determining cover.

Great Picture to illustrate your point!

There's no cover for that Soulgrinder. I'm not sure how any sane human being could argue otherwise. 25% of the model is not obscured, given your photographic evidence.

To the person above, it is worth fighting for, you've increased the survival of a potential game-changer by 17% (4+ cover for a Soulgrinder vs it's 5++ daemon save). If it were a tournament and it were at an impasse, I would call over the TO to settle, and likely argue with the TO and point to the rulebook should the TO disagree.

It's not in cover.

--

That said, why the heck would a player go out of their way to get a 4+ cover save for a soulgrinder!? That thing has AV13 on the front with a 5++ daemon save (re-rolling 1's if Tzeentch) How much more protection does a dude need!?


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rigeld2 wrote:
Also note that your rough outline is incorrect.
Decorative items are ignored. Which means al the blades and pointy bits are not counted for determining cover.

Taking that into account, shaving off "spikes" and rounding everything out, it's 2/11th's in cover, and I'm being generous. (That's about 18%)

Making it Nurgle means it then gets a 2+ cover save for shrouded. So giving it dependable cover would be important, if it were possible

 loreweaver wrote:
Great Picture to illustrate your point!

There's no cover for that Soulgrinder. I'm not sure how any sane human being could argue otherwise. 25% of the model is not obscured, given your photographic evidence.

To the person above, it is worth fighting for, you've increased the survival of a potential game-changer by 17% (4+ cover for a Soulgrinder vs it's 5++ daemon save). If it were a tournament and it were at an impasse, I would call over the TO to settle, and likely argue with the TO and point to the rulebook should the TO disagree.

It's not in cover.

--

That said, why the heck would a player go out of their way to get a 4+ cover save for a soulgrinder!? That thing has AV13 on the front with a 5++ daemon save (re-rolling 1's if Tzeentch) How much more protection does a dude need!?


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rigeld2 wrote:
Also note that your rough outline is incorrect.
Decorative items are ignored. Which means al the blades and pointy bits are not counted for determining cover.

Taking that into account, shaving off "spikes" and rounding everything out, it's 2/11th's in cover, and I'm being generous. (That's about 18%)

The picture also isn't using the tall sections of the ADL.
And yes, it adds survivability. And? Since the only way I can pen AV13 is in CC (since my current lists aren't using Hive Guard) it doesn't matter to me. Even if I did have shooting that would pen it I'd rather not waste time on a TO's call. And arguing with a TO? Why?play the game with his call then address it afterward.

I don't know if anyone in the other threads had brought this up -

If you think that the open space on a model (like the space between his legs) should be considered as part of the facing, then cover up everything except for that space. If I can still shoot your model, then the ADL would cover 25% and can get the cover.

Now - since this is not legal in the respects of TLoS, how does the air count all of a sudden when determining cover? Cover, even from vehicles is 25% of the model - yes for vehicles they say that is it the facing - but that doesn't all of a sudden make non-existant portions of the model (air) magically appear as part of it.

 Amaraxis wrote:
Now - since this is not legal in the respects of TLoS, how does the air count all of a sudden when determining cover? Cover, even from vehicles is 25% of the model - yes for vehicles they say that is it the facing - but that doesn't all of a sudden make non-existant portions of the model (air) magically appear as part of it.

The issue is that not all models have four nice neat facings like a Rhino. Once again GW forgot that they have very non-rectangular vehicles like the Falcon, where any "facing" is always going to be an approximation at best. So the debate here is over which approximation to use: a rectangular box drawn to contain the entire model, or trying to guess which parts of the model count towards which facing.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Amaraxis wrote:
Now - since this is not legal in the respects of TLoS, how does the air count all of a sudden when determining cover? Cover, even from vehicles is 25% of the model - yes for vehicles they say that is it the facing - but that doesn't all of a sudden make non-existant portions of the model (air) magically appear as part of it.

The issue is that not all models have four nice neat facings like a Rhino. Once again GW forgot that they have very non-rectangular vehicles like the Falcon, where any "facing" is always going to be an approximation at best. So the debate here is over which approximation to use: a rectangular box drawn to contain the entire model, or trying to guess which parts of the model count towards which facing.

Yeah it is difficult with the Eldar style vehicles, but Walkers you can generally tell which is facing which way, since it has a more 'humanoid' look to it.