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rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Because they are treated as Salvo2/4, and the base profile is Rapid Fire, and as nothing removes Rapid Fire from the profile, they Bolters retain the Rapid Fire Type.

And again - if you're using Rapid Fire you are absolutely not treating the weapon as Salvo 2/4.
You're treating the weapon as Rapid Fire/Salvo 2/4.

Does the Banner give you permission to treat the weapon as Rapid Fire/Salvo 2/4?

Dude salvo would have to replace rapid-fire.

Rigeld2 has it right.

 captain collius wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Because they are treated as Salvo2/4, and the base profile is Rapid Fire, and as nothing removes Rapid Fire from the profile, they Bolters retain the Rapid Fire Type.

And again - if you're using Rapid Fire you are absolutely not treating the weapon as Salvo 2/4.
You're treating the weapon as Rapid Fire/Salvo 2/4.

Does the Banner give you permission to treat the weapon as Rapid Fire/Salvo 2/4?

Dude salvo would have to replace rapid-fire.

Rigeld2 has it right.

Citation needed.

Where in the banner's rules does it say that Rapid Fire is removed?

 DeathReaper wrote:
Citation needed.

Where in the banner's rules does it say that Rapid Fire is removed?

It doesn't need to.

Your assertion is that you are allowed to treat the boltgun as Rapid Fire/Salvo 2/4.
Citation required. The BoD does not state that - instead it requires you to treat the boltgun as Salvo 2/4.

The burden lies on you, sir.

The boltgun's rules are in the BRB, it is 24" Rapid Fire.

The banner says to treat it as Salvo2/4 thus giving it a second type as nothing takes the Rapid Fire type away.

page 56 for Boltguns. There lies your proof that Boltguns are Rapid Fire.

where are the rules taking away the Rapid Fire Type? (The burden indeed lies on you to show this, Sir).

 DeathReaper wrote:
The boltgun's rules are in the BRB, it is 24" Rapid Fire.

Irrelevant.

The banner says to treat it as Salvo2/4 thus giving it a second type as nothing takes the Rapid Fire type away.

Does the rule say "as a second type"?

page 56 for Boltguns. There lies your proof that Boltguns are Rapid Fire.

where are the rules taking away the Rapid Fire Type? (The burden indeed lies on you to show this, Sir).

I've cited them. The BoD gives no permission to treat a weapon as Rapid Fire/Salvo 2/4. You are asserting it does. You still haven't shown that it does.
The actual rules require you to treat it as Salvo 2/4. Rapid Fire is mentioned nowhere and therefore treating the weapon as Rapid Fire/Salvo 2/4 is breaking the rules.

The Banner does not say 'treat their boltguns as Salvo 2/4 weapons Instead of Rapid Fire.'

it just says "treat their boltguns as Salvo 2/4 weapons"

The former would be needed to remove the Rapid Fire Type.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Banner does not say 'treat their boltguns as Salvo 2/4 weapons Instead of Rapid Fire.'

it just says "treat their boltguns as Salvo 2/4 weapons"

The former would be needed to remove the Rapid Fire Type.

So we know "treat as" must mean the same thing as "is" right?

So the banner says that your boltguns are Salvo 2/4 weapons.
Does the banner say that your boltguns are Rapid Fire/Salvo 2/4 weapons? Oh, it doesn't.
Since your boltguns are not Rapid Fire (they're Salvo 2/4 remember?) trying to move and shoot 12.1" is cheating.

It's similar to a set modifier - regardless of what you were before, you're Salvo now.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
But it doesn't say it loses Rapid Fire, which it must say for the weapon to lose it.

That's not true.

The rule says that they "treat their boltguns as Salvo 2/4 weapons"
There's no allowance to treat them as Rapid Fire.

They are rapid fire, and we treat them as salvo.

Where does it say a weapon can not have 2 types?

we know having two types is possible because Psycannons have 2 types.

I opted to quote this, here's why:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Where does it say a weapon can not have 2 types?

rigeld2 wrote:
The rule says that they "treat their boltguns as Salvo 2/4 weapons"

It could have the two types if the rule stated
- 'may treat their boltguns as Salvo 2/4 weapons'
or
- 'their boltguns also as Salvo 2/4 weapons'
or anything similar.

Ther rule does not give you any options, the cause (dakka banner bubble) commits you to its effect (boltguns in bubble are Salvo 2/4 weapons)
the only non-written thing you can assume is "combine with RW and/or LRC for best results"

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Banner does not say 'treat their boltguns as Salvo 2/4 weapons Instead of Rapid Fire.'

it just says "treat their boltguns as Salvo 2/4 weapons"

The former would be needed to remove the Rapid Fire Type.

So we know "treat as" must mean the same thing as "is" right?

So the banner says that your boltguns are Salvo 2/4 weapons.
Does the banner say that your boltguns are Rapid Fire/Salvo 2/4 weapons? Oh, it doesn't.
Since your boltguns are not Rapid Fire (they're Salvo 2/4 remember?) trying to move and shoot 12.1" is cheating.

It's similar to a set modifier - regardless of what you were before, you're Salvo now.

Yes, "treat as" must mean the same thing as "is" in order for the rules to work correctly.

The banner does say that the boltguns are Salvo2/4 weapons.

This does not remove the Rapid Fire type as weapons are allowed to have two types.

So moving and shooting it as the Rapid Fire type is perfectly within the rules.

It does not say they are Salvo2/4 instead of rapid fire, so they retain the Rapid Fire type.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Banner does not say 'treat their boltguns as Salvo 2/4 weapons Instead of Rapid Fire.'

it just says "treat their boltguns as Salvo 2/4 weapons"

The former would be needed to remove the Rapid Fire Type.

So we know "treat as" must mean the same thing as "is" right?

So the banner says that your boltguns are Salvo 2/4 weapons.
Does the banner say that your boltguns are Rapid Fire/Salvo 2/4 weapons? Oh, it doesn't.
Since your boltguns are not Rapid Fire (they're Salvo 2/4 remember?) trying to move and shoot 12.1" is cheating.

It's similar to a set modifier - regardless of what you were before, you're Salvo now.

Yes, "treat as" must mean the same thing as "is" in order for the rules to work correctly.

The banner does say that the boltguns are Salvo2/4 weapons.

This does not remove the Rapid Fire type as weapons are allowed to have two types.

So moving and shooting it as the Rapid Fire type is perfectly within the rules.

It does not say they are Salvo2/4 instead of rapid fire, so they retain the Rapid Fire type.

So you're treating them as something other than Salvo 2/4?

Yes or no - You are treating boltguns within 6" of a BoD as Rapid Fire/Salvo 2/4.

Rulebook reference time!

Page 50. "A shooting weapon always has one of the following types" - emphasis mine. Then again on page 51, "Some weapons can be used in different ways, representing different power settings or types of ammo (...) Where this is the case, there will be a separate line in the weapon's profile for each"

The Grey Knight example can't be used as precedent as it comes from a 5th edition Codex. Every example of a weapon with more than one "mode" since 6th landed has had separate profiles given - for an example from the Dark Angels codex itself, look at the Mace of Absolution on page 52.

rigeld2 wrote:
So you're treating them as something other than Salvo 2/4?

Yes or no - You are treating boltguns within 6" of a BoD as Rapid Fire/Salvo 2/4.

We treat them as Salvo 2/4, and their base type is Rapid Fire.

So you can use either profile.

 Super Ready wrote:
Rulebook reference time!

Page 50. "A shooting weapon always has one of the following types" - emphasis mine. Then again on page 51, "Some weapons can be used in different ways, representing different power settings or types of ammo (...) Where this is the case, there will be a separate line in the weapon's profile for each"

The Grey Knight example can't be used as precedent as it comes from a 5th edition Codex. Every example of a weapon with more than one "mode" since 6th landed has had separate profiles given - for an example from the Dark Angels codex itself, look at the Mace of Absolution on page 52.

Sternguard Boltguns would like to have a word with that rules quote from P.50, they have 4 statlines.

P.S. Psycannons can be used as precedent, as the GK Codex is currently a valid codex that works with the rules from 6th Ed.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So you're treating them as something other than Salvo 2/4?

Yes or no - You are treating boltguns within 6" of a BoD as Rapid Fire/Salvo 2/4.

We treat them as Salvo 2/4, and their base type is Rapid Fire.

So you can use either profile.

Avoiding the question.
Yes or no - You are treating boltguns within 6" of a BoD as Rapid Fire/Salvo 2/4.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Sternguard Boltguns would like to have a word with that rules quote from P.50, they have 4 statlines.

This particular example proves my point. A separate profile line for each - not all loaded into the one profile.

Note that Psycannon's do not have a separate stat line (That'd require a whole new line, cf. Missile Launchers, Sterngard Bolters).

They're "special".

rigeld2 wrote:
Note that Psycannon's do not have a separate stat line (That'd require a whole new line, cf. Missile Launchers, Sterngard Bolters).

They're "special".

But neither will a Salvo/Rapid Fire bolter.

 Grey Templar wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Note that Psycannon's do not have a separate stat line (That'd require a whole new line, cf. Missile Launchers, Sterngard Bolters).

They're "special".

But neither will a Salvo/Rapid Fire bolter.

Right - just clarifying that Psycannons are the only thing DR can call on as precedent.
Psycannon's generate a conflict in the ruiles and the codex wins those.

DR needs to cite a conflict in the rules here.

Why is it a conflict?

Weapons can have two types.

Nothing takes away the Rapid Fire type.

As to your question, no, I am treating them as Salvo 2/4. They are base Rapid Fire as well and nothing take Rapid Fire away from them. because it does not say instead of rapid fire treat them as Salvo.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Why is it a conflict?

Weapons can have two types.

Nothing takes away the Rapid Fire type.

As to your question, no, I am treating them as Salvo 2/4. They are base Rapid Fire as well and nothing take Rapid Fire away from them. because it does not say instead of rapid fire treat them as Salvo.

If you're attempting to fire as a Rapid Fire weapon, it must have that rule in its profile.
Since we've established that there are not multiple lines, you must be treating the weapon as Rapid Fire/Salvo 2/4.
That would be cheating.

Weapons can have two types, but they must be spelled out in a profile.

It does have Rapid Fire in its profile.

Due to the banner it also has Salvo 2/4 since the banner does not say replace, or instead of.

It doesn't have to.
It sets the profile to Salvo 2/4.

If you try and use Rapid Fire you're not treating the weapon as Salvo 2/4 which breaks a rule.

Doe s"treat" equate to "must also use as"?

It can be treated as "salvo" whilst also being "rapid fire". They are not mutually exclusive.

How would Rapid Fire and Salvo 2/4 work together in practice?

 WarOne wrote:
How would Rapid Fire and Salvo 2/4 work together in practice?

they don't, you would have to choose one or the other, just like a Psycannon, or a Missile Launcher, or Specialist Ammo.

If the rules were permissive of allowing both types to be in effect simultaneously, how would such a weapon be fired and under what conditions.

Trying to figure out if the rules for firing such a weapon gets wonky.

 WarOne wrote:
If the rules were permissive of allowing both types to be in effect simultaneously, how would such a weapon be fired and under what conditions.

Trying to figure out if the rules for firing such a weapon gets wonky.

To answer your question - before the unit fires you would opt to use either the Salvo profile or the Rapid Fire profile. Generally when you have 2 profiles like that Relentless models always use the heavier version (and so would have to use the Salvo profile).

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Doe s"treat" equate to "must also use as"?

It can be treated as "salvo" whilst also being "rapid fire". They are not mutually exclusive.

You're right, they aren't.

But the rule does not say to treat the boltgun as a Rapid Fire/Salvo 2/4 weapon.
Which means using it as Rapid Fire is cheating.

Edit : You're required to treat the weapon as Salvo. Nothing more.
Not "Salvo 2/4 in addition to..." Or "when it is advantageous..." Just as Salvo.

This argument could also apply to negating the Twin-Linked aspect of some boltguns. Since the type is being set and not additive/replaced.

If you treat all terrain as dangerous for a turn does that mean you can choose not to take the dangerous terrain test?

Twin linked is not a type.

However, nothing says to treat as Salvo instead of Rapid Fire.

Jyst treat as Salvo, and nothing takes away the Rapid Fire type.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
If you treat all terrain as dangerous for a turn does that mean you can choose not to take the dangerous terrain test?

Open and Dangerous terrain is still open, and Dangerous, therefore since you need to go through Dangerous you test for dangerous.

That situation is not at all comparable to a weapon having two types. However, a Psycannon has two types...

Rigeld - again, even if you fire it as rapid fire, if you wrote out its state line you would have included "salvo", and thus you would have "treated it as" salvo.

Again, does "treat as" require "must use as"?