Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

People say if every ork tribe came together, no one in the galaxy can beat them.

People also say if the tyranid hive fleets arrive, no one in the galaxy can beat them.

What if both happened at once?

I'm thinking orkz would win.

A side question, people say guardsmen rely on numbers, but dont the orks and nids outnumber them?

Properly organized, the Orks can beat back Tyranid invasions. It proved successful at Tenebra Prime, where the Ork residents beat the Hive Fleet to a pulp. The Octarius Empire is in a permanent stalemate with a Hive Fleet as well. The Orks are holding against the swarm, drawing more Boyz into the melting pot to fight off the Nids advance.

The Eldar tried a similar tactic in Dawn of War 2, driving the Orks against the Tyranids to stem them off long enough to excavate the buried Craftworld.

Orks have beaten Tyranids, Tyranids have beaten Orks.

I'd bet on the Tyranids myself. Ripper beats Grot

Dakka beats less Dakka. And when things aren't shooty enough, you get choppy.

Whoever wins - Humanity wins because the victor will be so exhausted of all the fighting that they will be easy prey for Imperium's army's.

It's hard to say.

The Necrons are also said to be unstoppable if the other races in the galaxy do not band together to fight them.

GW is sort of unimaginative.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
Whoever wins - Humanity wins because the victor will be so exhausted of all the fighting that they will be easy prey for Imperium's army's.

The issue here is that if the orks and nids get into an all-out war, you get orks the size of dreadnoughts and tyranid monsters to match. I don't think either force is the type to get exhausted from all the fighting.

If they're on equal footing, i'd guess it'd all come down to whoever can replenish they're manpower the fastest. Considering both armies rely on mass number of troops.

Well the Tyranids would get a huge source of biomass, if they won, the Orks can also resupply themselves via spore propogation.

And more importantly, the ongoing conflict makes both sides more powerful; the Nids adapt and grow in size and Orks become physically stronger and bigger with victory...

Whoever wins will be even stronger and more formidable than ever they were before...

I would bet on the Orks myself,.. the theory that if they all unify under 1 waagh bannah (Probs Ghazkull then) they will be unstoppable..

I think this is true,.. and why i think they have the advantage over the Nids,.. Orks are EVERYWHERE,.. every system seems to be infested with them. This while Tyranids are mostly on the borders of known space.. (true, we dont know whats beyond)

Tyranids usualy evade Necrons( no biomass),.. so Necrons will continue to ''live''... If Orks win, they will smash da universe!

And as stated above,.. There seem to be more records of orks winning vs nids then visa versa...

BUT! I am convinced the Nids wont make it easy for da boyz!! This since hyve minds adapt quick and effective.. Which is kind of a plus if nids win,.. they are adapted very well to fight off orks,.. which gives other races a bit more time against the Nids since they will have to switch to anti 'umie,tau,eldar etc etc

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
Whoever wins - Humanity wins because the victor will be so exhausted of all the fighting that they will be easy prey for Imperium's army's.

Orks are never exhausted of fighting !

GW has more or less done this with the Octarian War. The conclusion is it's a stalemate. Sheer Ork numbers combined with Ork tactics (or lack thereof) allow for the Tyranids plenty of biomass to replenish their numbers whereas the Tyrandis are putting up such a good fight that Orks fromall around the Galaxy are arriving, allowing the Orks to replenish their numbers. It's a clobberfest until one gives.

Personally I like the result of the Octarian War given in classic Warhammer 50k fanfic "The Shape of Nightmares to Come" that saw the Tyranids and Orks fuse into an unstoppable hybrid. Tyranid hunger and adaptability with Ork imagination and reproductive capabilities.

I'm with nids. People say orks because of the orks spore reproduction but the spores need a food source and will take atleast months to grow into a fighting force. Nids food source is dead things so there is constant food for them and I think they can make more faster then the spores grow. And the new orks don't know how to fight and have no weapons. So they would be like weapon skill 1 and ballistic skill 0

Jayo'r wrote:
I'm with nids. People say orks because of the orks spore reproduction but the spores need a food source and will take atleast months to grow into a fighting force. Nids food source is dead things so there is constant food for them and I think they can make more faster then the spores grow. And the new orks don't know how to fight and have no weapons. So they would be like weapon skill 1 and ballistic skill 0

The food source of the spores would be the corpses of everything else. Ork spores grow in days not months. New Orks are born ready to fight. Some even know how to build intersellar craft in the first few hours of life. The Orks were designed to wage eternal war. Also If the Orks got bored of fighting the Nids they would just will themselves to victory.

Come on this is no competition the Orks will stomp the Nids good and proper then grind them into the dirt abit just to make sure they got the message.

Besides the Orks spores ensure the Orks will never be beaten for good. A catastrophe that destroys alot of the Tyranid's bio mass stores wont be so easily recovered from than a catastrophe that wipes a bunch of Orks out as the spores will replace there numbers and in all likely hood increase them within weeks.

Commonly held Ork view of warfare wrote:Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!

Jayo'r wrote:
And the new orks don't know how to fight

Orkz know how to fight on a instinctive level.

Kind of like how baby turtles know to swim towards the ocean, except with orkz its about how to fire a shoota and swing a choppa.

There is a reason many video games have "Orkz is made for fightan and winnan!" as things some of your units would say.

It depends, I'm of the belief that battles drain tyranid resources because they have to waste energy to recycle the dead into new warriors, if they could overwhelm an Ork world the spores would be eaten as-well as the dead. If they win then I imagine any life sustaining world will have more biomass in its plants and oceans than almost any amount of warriors thrown into it. If nids win a war they get stronger regardless, stalemates and losses however will just waste away the hiveships.

Nids can consume the spores, so its Nids.

And every faction is pretty capable of clearing the galaxy if they unite. Its just a way to pump up the faction in the codex, nothing more.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Nids can consume the spores, so its Nids.

And every faction is pretty capable of clearing the galaxy if they unite. Its just a way to pump up the faction in the codex, nothing more.

cept tau.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
Whoever wins - Humanity wins because the victor will be so exhausted of all the fighting that they will be easy prey for Imperium's army's.

Tyranid codex says otherwise. With Octarius being the longest and bitterest conflict between both the Orks and Tyranids, it quite explicitly states both sides are gaining strength because of the fight, not losing strength.

This makes sense - conflict with a race of constantly repopulating fungi would give the Tyranids endless biomass to funnel back into the other Hive Fleets. Constant conflict makes the Orks that don't die graw and gain strength.

I doubt either race actually wants Octarius to end. The Orks have a perpetual proving ground in the most hellish battlefield imaginable to get stronger and the Tyranids have a perpetual biomass machine.

That said, regarding the OP - the main difference is that the Orks won't ever all unite. The closest they came was the Warlord that the Emperor and horus slew in the Great Crusade, but even that wasn't all of the Orks united. However, the Tyranids are coming. They are united. One is a theory, one is an eventuality.

The Beast. The warboss that almost toppled the IOM. He is the one who united almost all of the ork race. The orks actually had a good third of the iom under their control

I will say orks win cause we are talking bout orks. But this literally is a based on who wins the coin toss. In a full out battle between the two races, then strategy is literally a myth in this war. The both armies would have would literally make strategy an impossibility on world scale. They would be just too big.

The orks are neve exhausted after a war, please tell me were it says that anywere? I mean it is true with sane species, but we are talking about the orks, they are anything but sane when it comes to war. Or anything else for that matter

Battle wise, there would only be two types, either it will be over in a day, or it will be ongoing forever and ever. Since both forces are the Blitz kind of forces, then they would literally send everything they had against each other on the first day, two outcomes, one force would be wiped out or, they would gather the remainder of their forces, and call in reinforcements from outside the world. Example: Octarius war.

Also adaption is useless for the orks, as the orks that live would then become better fighters against the nid race. To beat this the nids must adapt, or will be wiped out, since the orks that survive will have the experience from before, they will be better fighters and could probably handle the adaptions better.

The nids have organisms that target microorganisms e.i. orks spores.

willhman wrote:
Battle wise, there would only be two types, either it will be over in a day, or it will be ongoing forever and ever. Since both forces are the Blitz kind of forces, then they would literally send everything they had against each other on the first day, two outcomes, one force would be wiped out or, they would gather the remainder of their forces, and call in reinforcements from outside the world. Example: Octarius war.

Tyranids are not a blitz warfare race. They attack in very distinct stages, and their invasions are severely telegraphed due to people knowing they're coming (the Shadow in the Warp is ironically very visible, and planets undergo severe seismic activity from Narvhals).

First, the Vanguard. Lictors and Genestealers land, infiltrate any societies on the planet, and generally assess the planets viability for consumption. When they reach critical mass, their psychic signature in the warp can be seen, and attracts the nearest Hive Fleet.

Second is the initial attack. This is performed by faster moving Tyranids - Shrikes, Flying Tyrants, Harridans, Harpies, Gargoyles. They attack any lower orbit installations and start harassing the defenses of a planet.

Third are the attack waves. These vary from fleet to fleet. These generally are comprised of light offensive organisms like Hormagaunts, Termagants, Warriors, Tyrants, Raveners, etc. They neutralise the defenses already being harassed by the initial atack.

Fourth is the heavy assault wave. This is optional - if defenses are too tough for the attack waves, they land heavier hitters like Carnifexes, Trygons, Heirophants - organisms that can break tough defenses.

Finally, once opposition has been mostly cleared, the consumption begins.

So while a war might drag on, it's not because Tyranids are a blitz type race. It's because their attack has been stalled at a particular phase. In regards to Octarius, it's stalled a stage 4 - heavy assault has been brought in, but hasn't yet been successful.

The worrying thing is that Octarius is drawing in Orks from all over the galaxy.

That means that eventually, every Ork in the galaxy will be at Octarius.

All we can hope is that the Tyranids win that war, because that's EXACTLY how a mega-waagh will start. Nothing unites Orks like a good fight, and that one's the best - if they win, the Imperium will have to deal with that same united Ork race that they're worried about!

 -Loki- wrote:

willhman wrote:
Battle wise, there would only be two types, either it will be over in a day, or it will be ongoing forever and ever. Since both forces are the Blitz kind of forces, then they would literally send everything they had against each other on the first day, two outcomes, one force would be wiped out or, they would gather the remainder of their forces, and call in reinforcements from outside the world. Example: Octarius war.

Tyranids are not a blitz warfare race. They attack in very distinct stages, and their invasions are severely telegraphed due to people knowing they're coming (the Shadow in the Warp is ironically very visible, and planets undergo severe seismic activity from Narvhals).

First, the Vanguard. Lictors and Genestealers land, infiltrate any societies on the planet, and generally assess the planets viability for consumption. When they reach critical mass, their psychic signature in the warp can be seen, and attracts the nearest Hive Fleet.

Second is the initial attack. This is performed by faster moving Tyranids - Shrikes, Flying Tyrants, Harridans, Harpies, Gargoyles. They attack any lower orbit installations and start harassing the defenses of a planet.

Third are the attack waves. These vary from fleet to fleet. These generally are comprised of light offensive organisms like Hormagaunts, Termagants, Warriors, Tyrants, Raveners, etc. They neutralise the defenses already being harassed by the initial atack.

Fourth is the heavy assault wave. This is optional - if defenses are too tough for the attack waves, they land heavier hitters like Carnifexes, Trygons, Heirophants - organisms that can break tough defenses.

Finally, once opposition has been mostly cleared, the consumption begins.

So while a war might drag on, it's not because Tyranids are a blitz type race. It's because their attack has been stalled at a particular phase. In regards to Octarius, it's stalled a stage 4 - heavy assault has been brought in, but hasn't yet been successful.

Yes the nids indeed have stages, but once infiltration happens then things start to go fast. Say they have infiltrated the government all the way to the governor, this is likely to happen. Then when the shadow in the warp gets detected and is reported to him, he will not do anything about it. This leaves open the door for the nids to come in with the least amount of resistance possible. Once they land, and the world is already in disarray, then the world will fall from the overwhelming forces of the nids. The planning can take years if not days, but usually, a succesful attack from nids probably ends within a month, that is if everything goes according to plan. For orks, they don't really know what a shadow in the warp is. So they can be hit in surprise fast.

Blitz are not fast planning wise. It takes time to mass up the forces needed for the blitz and time to hide them so they can be discovered. It also takes time to find the chink in the enemies armour so that you can get massive damage in the easiest way possible. That is what I meant. The battle itself rarely goes to stage 4 because the forces planetside are already in chaos. This way the nids expend the least amount of energy on each attack as possible. Blitz


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The worrying thing is that Octarius is drawing in Orks from all over the galaxy.

That means that eventually, every Ork in the galaxy will be at Octarius.

All we can hope is that the Tyranids win that war, because that's EXACTLY how a mega-waagh will start. Nothing unites Orks like a good fight, and that one's the best - if they win, the Imperium will have to deal with that same united Ork race that they're worried about!

Unlikely, nids are killing orks at a great rate, also they are keeping them incredible busy with the ability that the nids have of replenishing their forces

willhman wrote:
Yes the nids indeed have stages, but once infiltration happens then things start to go fast. Say they have infiltrated the government all the way to the governor, this is likely to happen. Then when the shadow in the warp gets detected and is reported to him, he will not do anything about it. This leaves open the door for the nids to come in with the least amount of resistance possible. Once they land, and the world is already in disarray, then the world will fall from the overwhelming forces of the nids. The planning can take years if not days, but usually, a succesful attack from nids probably ends within a month, that is if everything goes according to plan. For orks, they don't really know what a shadow in the warp is. So they can be hit in surprise fast.

Blitz are not fast planning wise. It takes time to mass up the forces needed for the blitz and time to hide them so they can be discovered. It also takes time to find the chink in the enemies armour so that you can get massive damage in the easiest way possible. That is what I meant. The battle itself rarely goes to stage 4 because the forces planetside are already in chaos. This way the nids expend the least amount of energy on each attack as possible. Blitz

A blitzkreig is a sudden and incisive attack, made without warning. Overwhelming force, made up of combined arms, is applied to to a point in the lines to break it open. Like a lightning strike, hence the name.

This doesn't fit a Tyranid attack. A Tyranid attack isn't a lightning attack, it's not made without warning and it's not combined arms. Again - it's not a lightning fast strike, because it is severely telegraphed. You know it's coming. Whether you do something about it or not is up to you, but you know its coming. From a long way away.

It's overwhelming force, but it's not applied to a specific point, it's made to the entire planet. It's not trying to break a hole in the lines - it's trying to break the lines, period. It's not combined arms, like a blitzkreig. The organisms all strike at different times. Heavy armour, a key component of a blitzkreig, doesn't arrive until the light infantry has battered itself bloody against the enemy lines and they realize they can't overcome it.

A Tyranid attack is a sustained assault. Starting off with fast, light aerial attacks, followed by successive waves of lighter troops, followed by heavy assault creatures if needed. Pretty standard sustained assault tactics. The speed of the attack waves is measured generally in days to weeks, even months if defenses are tough. Again - not perticularly fast, especially for 40k. Other races to it harder, faster and with better combined arms, like Space Marines.

 -Loki- wrote:

willhman wrote:
Yes the nids indeed have stages, but once infiltration happens then things start to go fast. Say they have infiltrated the government all the way to the governor, this is likely to happen. Then when the shadow in the warp gets detected and is reported to him, he will not do anything about it. This leaves open the door for the nids to come in with the least amount of resistance possible. Once they land, and the world is already in disarray, then the world will fall from the overwhelming forces of the nids. The planning can take years if not days, but usually, a succesful attack from nids probably ends within a month, that is if everything goes according to plan. For orks, they don't really know what a shadow in the warp is. So they can be hit in surprise fast.

Blitz are not fast planning wise. It takes time to mass up the forces needed for the blitz and time to hide them so they can be discovered. It also takes time to find the chink in the enemies armour so that you can get massive damage in the easiest way possible. That is what I meant. The battle itself rarely goes to stage 4 because the forces planetside are already in chaos. This way the nids expend the least amount of energy on each attack as possible. Blitz

A blitzkreig is a sudden and incisive attack, made without warning. Overwhelming force, made up of combined arms, is applied to to a point in the lines to break it open. Like a lightning strike, hence the name.

This doesn't fit a Tyranid attack. A Tyranid attack isn't a lightning attack, it's not made without warning and it's not combined arms. Again - it's not a lightning fast strike, because it is severely telegraphed. You know it's coming. Whether you do something about it or not is up to you, but you know its coming. From a long way away.

It's overwhelming force, but it's not applied to a specific point, it's made to the entire planet. It's not trying to break a hole in the lines - it's trying to break the lines, period. It's not combined arms, like a blitzkreig. The organisms all strike at different times. Heavy armour, a key component of a blitzkreig, doesn't arrive until the light infantry has battered itself bloody against the enemy lines and they realize they can't overcome it.

A Tyranid attack is a sustained assault. Starting off with fast, light aerial attacks, followed by successive waves of lighter troops, followed by heavy assault creatures if needed. Pretty standard sustained assault tactics. The speed of the attack waves is measured generally in days to weeks, even months if defenses are tough. Again - not perticularly fast, especially for 40k. Other races to it harder, faster and with better combined arms, like Space Marines.

First off, against the orks, who do not know(I Believe, I could be wrong)about the shadow in the warp, the nids can indeed make a surprise attack. It happened on the first worlds of the Octarius sector, when the orks didn't know about the nids, till they were literally raining down on them.

It has been said that the nids land heavy through light armour. Again I refer to the the Octarius war where on planet Orrok the nids landed heavy armour and light armour down to the surface, I believe they even used bio-titans but I'm not sure.

I can't really say anything to the point thing, but since they have enough forces they can indeed take a planet.

Once again Octarius war planet Orrok, this used a complete and total assault that used every type in it I believe(Getting this from Lexicanum...) the planet fell with in a day. That is ridiculous time, especial since the world was defended by orks.

I do concede the point that nids use blitz tactics in the opening stages of conflict. I do not study the nid how long it takes for nids to gain a world, but I do believe that their invasions span usually around 100 days or so. Which is fast if you ask me. But from what I can tell, nids do use fast attack tactics against the orks. Once again refering to Octarius war.

Wouldn't the orkz win because if one dies it automatically starts putting out spores for more boyz, where as the Nids have to wait til phase 4 is overwith.

If phase 4 never finishes, they never start eating, thus never start ro regain strength.

Where as the orkz as soon as one dies it begins to replish the supply of troops.

The battle at Octarius is only being sustained by the nids because they are calling in help from the fleet, where as the orkz are sustaining it by victors becoming stronger, dead becoming more, and reinforcements.

Hmmm, do you think if you ran a Octarius style horde:
Nobs are basic troop choices, boys are unavailable.
Warbosses are Elite troop choices, perhaps could be taken as a standard troop choices if you take a warboss the size of 3 ghazzgulls as your HQ

Would that be accurate? Since only the strong are left and the boyz have all either died or turned into nobs?

Nids eat spores, means there's less Orks.

Now granted, other factions can also remove them (artillery, fire, plasma, melta, necrons weaponry is pretty much the best thing to get rid of Orks.) But that also means that as long as there's spores, there's sustenance for the Nids.

Also, the part about Orks only giving off spores when they die is a myth - according to the original source in Gorkamorka, Orks are constantly shedding spores from the moment they mature.

The other thing to take into account, however, is the number of viable spores that then turn into snotlings, squigs, gretchin or squiggoths rather than Orks - anything less than a Grot isn't worth much, and Squiggoths take a long time to mature.