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Hi,

So yesterday I had a battle with someone. It was Chaos Space Marines vs Tyranids. The issue that we had was I wanted to give my Hellbrute a twin linked laser cannon, however my opponent would not allow it because he said my model has to have that weapon on him for me to use it. For example my Chaos Space Marines, he wouldn't allot me to swap my boltgun with a close combat weapon as my physical model had a boltgun on him. I am not sure who is right or wrong but I have always played Fantasy and 40k in the way that you can give your models additions providing you have the points available to spend and not be restricted by what comes in the sprues.

What are your thoughts on this?

Thanks

Technically he's correct, but in reality there's a wide range of opinions on this. Here's a thread with some of them:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/510764.page

It should really be "what yo see is what you get" so that you can briefly glance across all the emeny models to see whats what.

If it's a friendly game then I've always played that you can accept a few proxies from opponents. Usually when they are trying things out; and when its clear on their army list.
Rhinos for Hellhounds
Terminators for Obliterators
Vendetta as a Heldrake sort of thing.

If it was a non-league / non-competition game and you wanted one change on the dreadnought model then the chap would be being a bit of an "end" of the bell variety.

I think he had more of a point with the marines, if you had a couple of units of them and you said this one unit is different then it become harder for him to remember and follow which unit has the proxied weapons. Or he had a point if your list was ambiguous on whether you had the free combat weapns and he felt that you flipped when yo found he had a horde.

CSM are a pain in the neck to get the correct weapons for, mainly as the basic pack comes with a heavy bolter and the havoc packs are way too expensive. I'm just over stocking, approx 12 - 13 marines to pick a unit of 10 from and units with pisols and close combat weapons. The biggest pain is getting the pistols, close combat weapons and bolters as you suddenly need to do some serious converting - so I avoid these point sink units.

Where in the BRB does it say WYSIWYG is required?

I can't recall seeing it in the 6th BRB but previous editions did mention it.

Personally we play strict WYSIWYG in our group just because we like the modelling side of the hobby and will happily build extra models or magnetise them.

End of the day if you and the opponent can't agree on the proxy then you'll either have to take the Hellbrute with the equipment its got or just find another person to play with.

My question is, why would you swap the Bolters for CCW when you're fighting nids? Why not just pay the one point and get the bolter AND extra CCW?

I don't think WYSIWYG is a hard rule, but rather a very common occurance among miniature war gamers to keep the game simple. Some people are really strict about it, some people are more lenient. Usually small things like swapping bolters for knives aren't a huge deal as long as the entire unit has that upgrade, at least when I play. Usually things that are more ambiguous are frowned upon, like saying that one guy out of five very similar Marines has a missile launcher. That makes it harder to determine who has that option, and opens up chances to 'accidentally' forget who had what weapon after armor saves are failed.
Also, small objects like pistols, knives, and grenades aren't very important for WYSIWYG, since they can easily be tucked away and out of sight, such as in Necromunda, where WYSIWYG is very important.

Personally, what I do, as a more fluff-oriented gamer, is I try to find a reason why a proxy or counts-as works. Swaped your bolter for an extra CCW, but the bolter is still modeled in? Well, obviously it's because those Chaos Marines are angry, and instead of shooting their bolters like normal people, they use them like clubs to bash in the skulls of followers of the Corpse God.
Or you could go the much simpler route for the Helbrute and simply say "It's a TL Lascannon because GW doesn't make Lascannons for the Helbrute, so I can't make it WYSIWYG."

 xSPYXEx wrote:
Or you could go the much simpler route for the Helbrute and simply say "It's a TL Lascannon because GW doesn't make Lascannons for the Helbrute, so I can't make it WYSIWYG."

What GW has or has not made has never been an excuse to avoid WYSIWYG. If you want a lascannon, figure out how to convert a lascannon, it's not hard.

WYSIWYG is a big deal, but I think he was being ridiculous. Even WYSIWYG has limits.

My GH get a BP, BG, and CCW (which some opponents have trouble accepting regardless of modeling). It's quite difficult to model them with all of that, and it would look goofy. It doesn't mean they leave things at home.

Some people are just really literal, and like the control they can have over others by doing things like this. I never have, nor will I ever understand it. Mellow out, it's a game.

Not everyone is good at conversions, even ones that may seem minor and easy. Having that AC play as a LC, shouldn't be an issue. If it is, IMO, it's the sign of a weak gamer. Maybe he's scared of facing something different and unexpected, but isn't that what makes this game fun and challenging, which is the point.

Having a minor modeling proxy like that is a far smaller thing compared to some of the examples given like Valkyries proxying for Heldrakes. I'm a lot more relaxed on stuff like that anyway. Even something like that would be okay a couple times to test it out before you commit to the cash load. That's not quite to the OP's question though.

Regardless of whether or not he's 'technically justified', I would think twice about playing someone that's that restrictive to me. Takes some of the fun out of it.

Boggy79 wrote:
I can't recall seeing it in the 6th BRB but previous editions did mention it.

Personally we play strict WYSIWYG in our group just because we like the modelling side of the hobby and will happily build extra models or magnetise them.

End of the day if you and the opponent can't agree on the proxy then you'll either have to take the Hellbrute with the equipment its got or just find another person to play with.

Where I play they give VP for a WYSIWYG in tournaments but not required. I try and do WYSIWYG but my conversion skills are lacking. I tried making combi weapons but they came out horrid.

WYSIWYG is not a 6th edition rulebook rule, unlike 5th edition where it was required for characters and their upgrades, and the 4th edition eldar codex which still requires full WYSIWYG

It is a player convention, but not a hard and fast rule for most models out there.

Our group does WYSIWYG as much as possible.

However, we aren't tournament players, and if someone wants to proxy a melta gun for a flamer now and again, no problem.

lynxstrife wrote:

Boggy79 wrote:
I can't recall seeing it in the 6th BRB but previous editions did mention it.

Personally we play strict WYSIWYG in our group just because we like the modelling side of the hobby and will happily build extra models or magnetise them.

End of the day if you and the opponent can't agree on the proxy then you'll either have to take the Hellbrute with the equipment its got or just find another person to play with.

Where I play they give VP for a WYSIWYG in tournaments but not required. I try and do WYSIWYG but my conversion skills are lacking. I tried making combi weapons but they came out horrid.

I didn't say we were all great at modelling!!

We just enjoy it. I regularly face Spawns made from old school mono-pose paint set marines with genestealer arms, heads made from the gargoyle barrel ends from the chaos vehicle sprue and all held together with a tonne of green stuff!!!

Point is that we know those are his Spawns and he only runs them as Spawns. If he turned up claiming they were Oblits in the next battle we'd probably question it.

My group(a bunch of poor college students) generally is fine with our players using a proxie(s) or a model that is not WYSIWYG if they are new or are trying something out(or if the model doesn't exist like the las cannon hellbrute) so they don't have to buy a model build it and then find out they don't like how it plays or worse find out the army they thought they would enjoy(Tau in my case) was just not very fun for them to play.

Boggy79 wrote:

lynxstrife wrote:

Boggy79 wrote:
I can't recall seeing it in the 6th BRB but previous editions did mention it.

Personally we play strict WYSIWYG in our group just because we like the modelling side of the hobby and will happily build extra models or magnetise them.

End of the day if you and the opponent can't agree on the proxy then you'll either have to take the Hellbrute with the equipment its got or just find another person to play with.

Where I play they give VP for a WYSIWYG in tournaments but not required. I try and do WYSIWYG but my conversion skills are lacking. I tried making combi weapons but they came out horrid.

I didn't say we were all great at modelling!!

We just enjoy it. I regularly face Spawns made from old school mono-pose paint set marines with genestealer arms, heads made from the gargoyle barrel ends from the chaos vehicle sprue and all held together with a tonne of green stuff!!!

Point is that we know those are his Spawns and he only runs them as Spawns. If he turned up claiming they were Oblits in the next battle we'd probably question it.

I agree with most of that it is a touchy topic. I do the tried and true "all flamers are meltas." A few times and "my rhinos are razorbacks." But that is the limit I have and well I only have 1 razor back not three. But not allowing you to play a list cause your models are not WYSIWYG just does not sit right with me. My.02 cents adjusted for inflation.

lynxstrife wrote:


I agree with most of that it is a touchy topic. I do the tried and true "all flamers are meltas." A few times and "my rhinos are razorbacks." But that is the limit I have and well I only have 1 razor back not three. But not allowing you to play a list cause your models are not WYSIWYG just does not sit right with me. My.02 cents adjusted for inflation.

Depends on the player. We all started back in 3rd when none of us had mortgages (except me) or children and money wasn't as tight. Now got 5 or 6 armies over 3000pts each. If a newbie wanted to trial a new list with a few proxies I'd be fine. Idea of the game is to have fun not to waac. Hell, my list for this weeks 1500 point game only has three units just for a laugh!

nosferatu1001 wrote:
WYSIWYG is not a 6th edition rulebook rule, unlike 5th edition where it was required for characters and their upgrades, and the 4th edition eldar codex which still requires full WYSIWYG

It is a player convention, but not a hard and fast rule for most models out there.

It is also in Tau Empire (for a couple more weeks yet), Black Templars and Orks.

I come from a backround of proxying everything!!!! My cousin and i started this hobby using tan n green plastic army men, along with legos and all sorts of different things. it was slightly confusing at times but we were 12. WYSIWYG should not stop people from playing anywhere but in tournaments in my opinion really. And thats only so that its just that much harder for people to try and cheat in a, i forgot which guy has the ___, so we'll just say its the guy thats still alive.

Tell your opponent they're carrying their chainswords in their backpacks.

Zod wrote:
Hi,

So yesterday I had a battle with someone. It was Chaos Space Marines vs Tyranids. The issue that we had was I wanted to give my Hellbrute a twin linked laser cannon, however my opponent would not allow it because he said my model has to have that weapon on him for me to use it. For example my Chaos Space Marines, he wouldn't allot me to swap my boltgun with a close combat weapon as my physical model had a boltgun on him. I am not sure who is right or wrong but I have always played Fantasy and 40k in the way that you can give your models additions providing you have the points available to spend and not be restricted by what comes in the sprues.

What are your thoughts on this?

Thanks

He was completely wrong in this situation. There is absolutely no rule that says wargear has to be represented on the model.
It is impractical in many cases, and people like to try different combinations between games. There are only a very few tournaments that enforce that type of mindset.

Assuming this was a pickup or friendly game, I would have told him if he wants to play that is just the way it is going to be.

Zod wrote:
Hi,

So yesterday I had a battle with someone. It was Chaos Space Marines vs Tyranids. The issue that we had was I wanted to give my Hellbrute a twin linked laser cannon, however my opponent would not allow it because he said my model has to have that weapon on him for me to use it. For example my Chaos Space Marines, he wouldn't allot me to swap my boltgun with a close combat weapon as my physical model had a boltgun on him. I am not sure who is right or wrong but I have always played Fantasy and 40k in the way that you can give your models additions providing you have the points available to spend and not be restricted by what comes in the sprues.

What are your thoughts on this?

Thanks

With regards to the Chaos Space Marines, direct him to the codex. Chaos Space Marines ALL have a Boltgun and a Bolt Pistol. Try to put them all on the model if it's practical.So they can fire a bolt pistol before charging too.

Last codex they all had a close combat weapon in addition to these so had +1 attack in close combat but sadly not anymore.

With the helbrute isn't the only available model carrying a multimelta? Gotta let you off for that one since there's no non conversion alternative.. plus you are friends he should be reasonable not pedantic :p

foxyfennec wrote:

With regards to the Chaos Space Marines, direct him to the codex. Chaos Space Marines ALL have a Boltgun and a Bolt Pistol. Try to put them all on the model if it's practical.

It's quite practical, the CSM kit comes with holstered pistol bits.

If you want to give the Hellbrute lascannons, just shove some plastic tubing down the MM barrels. As for the CSM issues, there are.more than enough bits and bobs in the CSM pack to sufficiently randomise your loadouts if you are going for the bolter/pistol/CCW combo. As long as its your whole unit, only a TFG is going to whine.

 Redbeard wrote:

foxyfennec wrote:

With regards to the Chaos Space Marines, direct him to the codex. Chaos Space Marines ALL have a Boltgun and a Bolt Pistol. Try to put them all on the model if it's practical.

It's quite practical, the CSM kit comes with holstered pistol bits.

I find that they get in the way of the bolter arms, myself. I model some bolt pistols, but it gets old.

Do you actually require that, Redbeard? Or is this a RAW versus HIWPI sort of thing?

That doesn't seem right at all, especially since 4e had BP and CCWs. As well as grenades. Are you really requiring people to model their CSM with 3 weapons + grenades? That's going to be a clusterfeth.

Hell, I don't even put grenades on half of my Marines.

A lot of the books have space marine grenades as coin sized objects; with the exception of melta bomns which you have to cart around in a wheelbarrow or on a small forklift truk.

 kronk wrote:

 Redbeard wrote:

foxyfennec wrote:

With regards to the Chaos Space Marines, direct him to the codex. Chaos Space Marines ALL have a Boltgun and a Bolt Pistol. Try to put them all on the model if it's practical.

It's quite practical, the CSM kit comes with holstered pistol bits.

I find that they get in the way of the bolter arms, myself. I model some bolt pistols, but it gets old.

Do you actually require that, Redbeard? Or is this a RAW versus HIWPI sort of thing?

I don't require anything. Someone said it was hard to put a bolt pistol and a bolter on a marine. I'm simply pointing out that it's not hard, the bits are provided to do it, and "it's not practical" isn't really a winning argument.

I see.

As I said, I think it gets in the way of the bolter arms and makes it look "busy". Especially when you also put the grenades on.

That's not a matter of ease though, or even practicality, it's a matter of your personal preference. It's a matter of your aesthetic choices taking precedence over game utility.

Let's tweak that argument a little. I don't like the way the predator's autocannon looks. That's an aesthetic choice. Is it reasonable for me to use the twin-linked lascannon parts instead, even knowing that I fully intend to run the model with the autocannon in the game?

Others have pointed out that WYSIWYG is no longer in the rules. This disappoints me, because I believe that WYSIWYG is an important part of the game, but there are certainly other rules changes that have ruined the game more (such as random charge lengths). If I were to opt to ignore only one rule, it wouldn't be requiring WYSIWYG, in spite of the fact that it was part of the game for years. I think it's only polite to your opponent to field models with the options on them. But then, I also think it's only polite to your opponent to field a painted army too.

You can't force politeness on others. I cannot demand that my opponents be polite, I can only be polite myself.

(As a side note, it's not even part of the rules that the models you use have anything to do with the models you pay points to use - at least I don't think it is. And some of the newer codexes (Chaos Daemons, I'm looking at you), make it impossible to field WYSIWYG models because the random gift rolls mean you don't know if you're getting armour or a weapon or something else.

WYSIWYG should be only limited to what stuff you are given in the sprues, like how am I supposed to model "blah" if I don't do conversions at all?
And I believe that conversions themselves are illegal?( Not 100% sure where it is in the BRB if someone can back me up on this)

Seriously though, I know it makes it easier for the game to play using WYSIWYG but does it really matter? Maybe my guy just hid his gun for a second to eat a sandwich or something.
The only problem I have is claiming 1 guy out of 10 guys with the same gun to have the special weapon is kinda random...