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Hi Dakka,

What do you make of this list?

HQ (160):
Company Command Squad w/ 3 Plasma Guns – 95
Chimera w/ 2 Heavy Bolters, Heavy Stubber – 65

Troops (540):
Veteran Squad w/ 3 Plasma Guns – 115
Chimera w/ 2 Heavy Bolters, Heavy Stubber – 65
Veteran Squad w/ 3 Plasma Guns – 115
Chimera w/ 2 Heavy Bolters, Heavy Stubber – 65
Veteran Squad w/ 3 Plasma Guns – 115
Chimera w/ 2 Heavy Bolters, Heavy Stubber – 65

Fast Attack (130):
Vendetta – 130

Heavy Support (670):
Leman Russ Executioner w/ Heavy Bolter Sponsons – 210
Leman Russ Executioner w/ Heavy Bolter Sponsons – 210
Ordnance Battery:
Basilisk – 125
Basilisk – 125

Thats 1500 points total.

I'd love to hear what you think
Zambro

Interesting.

Personally, I don't like the Chimera loadouts. The multilaser's extra strength is too sweet to pass up IMO, and the heavy stubber is rarely worth its cost unless you play Tyranids and Orks all the time. Same with the Executioner w/HB sponsons. Either spend an arm and a leg to get PC sponsons on it, or just leave sponsons at home, so they do a great job at what they do.

Pretty much half your list is all plasma, while the other half is all HB (?!). So, your anti-heavy tank is severely limited and a single Vendetta sadly won't cut it in 1500 pts, especially if you run into any form of AV14.

Of course, you might make the list more competitive by adding more Vendettas and/or some form of other reliable ranged AT.You'd need to sacrifice a lot of HS for this, probably, but trust me, you'll need it.

Agree with the multi-lazers!! The extra strength is a lot more multi-tasking than heavybolters.. And it's not like your getting rid of all the Hvy Bltr, and Hvy stubber, well there's many better ways to use 10points.. Like turning those basalisks into manticores!!!!! :p

Yea I would ditch the stubbers unless you always play horde based armies.

Personally, I would drop the Heavy Stubbers to upgrade the HB sponsons on the Executioners to PlasCannon. Then I would take your CCS and drop the Plasma for 4 Melta guns. I will point out you will have /nothing/ defending your artillery, so their impact will be limited because they should be dead by turn 2-3 against a decent list, faster if they have Drop pods. I would get rid of them for either a Vanq with Pask (for long range AT and fit the theme of your list), 2 more Vendettas, or more troops.

I also agree on the Multi-laser on being the superior choice and would run hull flamers for attacking Chimeras and HBs on defending Chimeras.

I will point out for a 1500pt list, you have 3 troop options. What is the plan with them? Are they attacking to get in plasma range or camping? If you are considering camping, get LC teams for them but get ready to watch them blow up unless you have Camo-Netting (and that isn't a sure thing). At the end of the day, the Vets are more durable than the Chimera but a exploding Chimera has a reasonable chance to kill a bunch of your guys and you might be watching them run away.

Thanks for the feedback guys, it's very helpful.

Here is the new (and improved?) list:
HQ (145):
Company Command Squad w/ 4 Meltaguns – 90
Chimera w/ Multi-laser, Heavy Flamer – 55

Troops (665):
Veteran Squad w/ 3 Plasma Guns – 115
Chimera w/ Multi-laser, Heavy Bolter – 55
Veteran Squad w/ 3 Plasma Guns – 115
Chimera w/ Multi-laser, Heavy Bolter – 55
Veteran Squad w/ 3 Plasma Guns – 115
Chimera w/ Multi-laser, Heavy Flamer – 55
Veteran Squad w/ 3 Meltaguns – 100
Chimera w/ Multi-laser, Heavy Flamer – 55

Fast Attack (130):
Vendetta – 130

Heavy Support (560):
Leman Russ Executioner w/ Heavy Bolter Sponsons – 210
Leman Russ Executioner w/ Heavy Bolter Sponsons – 210
Medusa w/ Bastion-Breacher Shells – 140

Again, 1500 points on the dot.
So, whats new? I scrapped the basilisks. I think a Medusa would benifit me more. I'm lacking in anti-av14, so hopefully that medusa will fill that hole. I also took the points from that and squeezed another vet squad into the list, I gave them MGs because thats all that the points allowed. What do you think of me dropping the MGs and taking a HWT+1special? I also re-arranged the loadouts on the Chimeras. Having re-reviewed the codex, I have no idea how i missed multi-lasers having S6. Awell, fixed that now. I also dropped the other weapon - i wont be able to shoot it if i move anyway. 2 Chimeras have a loadout for being stationry, and the other two have a HF for pushing forward. Re-arranged the loadout on the CCS as advised. My bigest concern is with the Executioners. Are plasma cannons really that much better than heavy bolters? Well, in terms of their stats they are, but i mean praticality. PCs get hot, (the main turret doesn't) so i could end up damaging myself. Also i cant snap shot with PCs - but i can with bolters - so if i need to shift around i dont have 40 points worth of sponsons doing nothing.

Thoughts?

Sell the heavy stubbers on ebay. People are always on the look out for Autocannons to glue onto their marines.

I think you have neglected your anti-air, a vendetta will only work if the other flyer of flyers are already on the board.
You're quite static and shooty (until the later turn when you whisk off and take objectives) would an ADL + quad gun be an idea to hide the chimera behind and help shoot with?


Have you considered a MoO for the CCS?

 Jasper wrote:
Sell the heavy stubbers on ebay. People are always on the look out for Autocannons to glue onto their marines.

I think you have neglected your anti-air, a vendetta will only work if the other flyer of flyers are already on the board.
You're quite static and shooty (until the later turn when you whisk off and take objectives) would an ADL + quad gun be an idea to hide the chimera behind and help shoot with?


Have you considered a MoO for the CCS?

An ADL would be great, but i honestly done see where to cut the points for it. I'd like to keep the Vendetta - it's a hassle for the enemy, and provides good anti-tank, so i wouldn't cut points from that. I would need something static to stand and shoot with the ADL, so removing a chimera (who needs a chimera when they are on the quadgun?) That would get me 55 points. If i cut the CCS's melta fix, that'll save me 40 points. Up to 95 now. IIRC, ADL+QG is 100. So we need to cut more points. Swap 1 vet squads PGs for Melta, that gives me +15 points. Total 110 free points. Spend 100 on a ADL+QG, and 10 on an auto-cannon for the CCS. Sound good?
OR
Cut the CCS's Chimera, and a PG-Vet squad's chimera, and the CCS's meltas. Put the vets in the Vendetta, get an ADL+QG and put a lascannon in the CCS, leaving me with 30 points spare - camo netting on the medusa?. This leaves me 2 chimeras down, and ultimately less target saturation.

Both suggestions have their pro's and con's. What do you think I should do? Do you have an alternative suggestion - i'd love to hear it!

MoO is a point sink, in my case. I barely have points to fix around, and an inaccurate S9 blast isn't helpful.
I considered an OotF. Messing with reserve rolls is handy for a take all comers list, but i'm struggling for points, so it's a no for now.

Thanks guys, this is really helping!

the first option is the way to go to get an ADL. I could be tempted by the second and get a unit of rattlings to site behind the ADL; then charge them out as a sacrifical unit to be rolled over by anything nearby and get another turn of shooting at said unit with everyone behind the ADL.

Ratlings are a dog unit though... total glass cannon as their Ld 6 blows so they will run on their first moral check. An ADL with a Icarus LC and a Lord Commissar (BS 5) with a Camo Cloak is 155pts. But to spend 155pts on that or have a second Vendetta for 130? Why have a ADL if you have no troops back there holding a home objective? That isn't his list Jasper... his list is moving forward to attack He accepted that as soon as he went mech vet. Every suggestion your making is weaking his list from doing this.

Zambro, I would put your CCS in the Vendetta, dropping the Chimera. This way you can Grav chute them in to blow up a armored thread and saving you some points. You can not trust arty to be accurate enough to be your AT. Your are reducing your accuracy when you use the scatter dice to a 33% chance to hit (they only have two sides with hit) from say 50% with a BS 3 Lascannon (or 75% with a twin linked LC). Even if you use Direct Fire to get your BS shaved off of the scatter, an average roll is 7" and the marker is 3" (so 1.5" from center) so your missing most targets by 2.5" inches. But to be honest, if your going to run something, make it a Colossus because it ignores cover saves. And right now, there are to many death stars based off of cover saves (ork Bikes, clowns, Invisibility, ect) and to many lists using ADLs. Besides, it is 140pts....

Your correct on the PCs and the 'Get's Hot!' as well as snap fire. But 3 Str 7, AP 2 blast markers destroy a lot of things at 36", things that can ignore the HB fire due to armor (Terminators), AV, or Toughness. Pretty much these would be stationary to pull this off, maybe even in a corner to protect their rear AV from DSers. I suggest a hull LC to give you some long range AT that has AP synergy. I think your way to enamored with the HBs for what they are giving you. You have Chimeras filling that nitch. But if you want them moving forward with your Chimeras... dropping the sponsons altogether and going to hull Lascannons might be he way to go.

If you drop the CCS Chimera and switch the HB sponsons to hull LCs, you could get 65pts for... Marbro or other assorted goodies (advisors, upgrade your melta Vets to plasma, throw HBs on your Vendetta, dual plasma pistols on your Commander, Carapace on your CCS, ect...)

I would presume Zambro would sit more than just 3 rattling behind an ADL. The rattling were just a cheaky way of trying to hold back a unit for a turn so you can fire at it; with hind sight its a naff way as most assaulty units would shoot the rattlings up with pistols if they stepped outside. A 50pt guard squad would be needed and that starts eating into the points.

Zambro's army is for advancing but it does contain a significant amount of static forces; all the LRBT and Medusa. These need a small guard at least which means a Chimera and contents sitting nearby and shooting. Adding an ADL to this suddenly makes it much more survivable; cover saves for the tanks, silly saves for any troops; when the force faces something they really don't want to advance chimera into then you have an ADL you can make a nice castle with. Although it sounds llike it I am not a huge ADL fan and prefer slapping units into building and behind wall; it just a little difficult with IG.

A flyer is good; two are better but people are getting wise and any ADL lover will take much joy in shooting them down if they come on the board in dribs and drabs; or smug CSM players that vector strike one and shoot down the other in a single turn.

I've been playing around with a hybrid list over the past day or two.

I think it might be better than this, as Jasper said, something to stay back would be nice. My list has around 50 guardsmen with autocannons, LRBTs and basilisks. Also 2 vendettas with 2 vet squads just to make the advance and put some pressure on the enemy.

I've also been looking at other peoples IG lists. They all seem to be heading in the direction of a hybrid list. I think i'll do the same, for now

While mechanized thrusty type is a lot of fun, hybrid is insanely useful. A firm firing base is great for defending at-home objectives, and you can shove more heavy weapons teams in there. Plus if you take an ADF, you can shove in a quad gun which will help with AA. A lot of the space for that should come naturall when you hack things down to be hybrid.

Here is my hybrid list:
HQ (90):
Company Command Squad w/ Regimental Standard, Lascannon, Vox-caster – 90

Troops (565):
Veteran Squad w/ 3 Plasma Guns, Grenadiers – 145
Veteran Squad w/ 3 Meltaguns, Grenadiers – 130
Platoon Command Squad w/ Auto-cannon – 40
Infantry Squad w/ Auto-cannon, Vox-caster – 65
Infantry Squad w/ Auto-cannon – 60
Infantry Squad w/ Auto-cannon, Vox-caster – 65
Infantry Squad w/ Auto-cannon – 60

Fast Attack (380):
Vendetta – 130
Vendetta – 130

Heavy Support (480):
Leman Russ Battle Tank – 150
Leman Russ Battle Tank – 150
Ordnance Battery:
Basilisk – 125
Basilisk – 125
Camo Netting – 30

Fortifications (100):
Aegis Defence Line w/ Quad-gun – 100

The Infantry squads will blob up, to be 2 20man teams. the CCS and PCS will probably sit between them and shout orders.
The rest shoots the crap out of things

This is where i am with my list. It changes almost daily, what do you think?

I fail to see the hybrid though, as now all you are is a gunline list with two squads of Vets. If your not attacking and thus not moving up forward, why not have sponsons on the LRBTs? Why not put netting on all of them? Why no Commissars in the blobs? Why not put LCs on the Vets to make use of the BS 4 if they are camping (and give them all plasma)? Generally that is the key of a Hybrid list is that you have mech attacking forces and foot forces in the rear camping and shooting.

If you want a gunline list with Vets and Platoon mixed, there are more efficient ways of doing it IMO.

CCS - 105pts (in middle within 12" of blob and HWSs, behind ADL)
Standard, LC, Camo Cloaks

Lord Commissar - 80pts (On ADL gun)
Camo Cloak

Vets - 165pts (on right flank in cover)
Sentries, LC, 3x Plasma

Vets - 165pts (on left flank in cover)
Sentries, LC, 3x Plasma

PCS - 50pts (In a Vendetta)
4x Flamers

PIS - 90pts (blobbed, behind ADL)
LC, Plasma, Melta bombs

PIS - 125pts (blobbed)
LC, Plasma, Melta bombs, Commissar

SWS - 50pts (In a Vendetta)
3x Flamers

HWS - 90pts (within 6" of Lord, behind ADL)
3x ACs

HWS - 90pts (within 6" of Lord, behind ADL)
3x ACs

ADL - 85pts
Icarus Lascannon

Vendetta - 130pts

Vendetta - 130pts

Basilisk - 155pts
Camo netting

Basilisk - 155pts
Camo netting

1500pts

I think the new list could do with some chimeras to allow more of the guard units to advance and take poorly guarded objectives; or to stuff the veterans in and let the vendettas do their own thing; or to shoot if needs must. Not sure tanks you need netting if they can be squeezed behind an ADL.

Basillisks suffer from the 36" minimum range; and as they are a battery need to fire at the same target. WIth the LRBTs battlecannon in place to take on 3+ saves you could plump for a manticore to get the possible 3 S10 shots per turn and free up some points for chimeras.

The special weapons squads BlkTom has put in vendettas is a good idea, also a nice way to get some demolition charges up to the enemy.

Yeah... I would normally run two platoons at that point and put both PCSs in the Vendettas, as I run mostly platoon based squads.

He could do nothing but Platoon and run Chimeras in each PIS as their dedicated transport, but at that point you probably want a AC to give a little more bang for that lone special weapon buck.

As for running a hybrid, I agree with Jasper that you probably do want 2-3 Chimeras to run forward with your LRBTs. At that point, I get iffy on artillery due to scatter... I don't want a remote chance of shooting my own stuff. I think with a single Platoon you can generate enough direct firepower with ACs and LCs to more than make up for it. With the list I made, you could turn those Basilisks into LRBTs or Melta vets in a Chimera for the same points. The two Vet units can also be meta vets in Chimeras so you can do a mix of 3 Chimeras and a LRBT, two Chimeras and two LRBTs, or all Chimeras and still have decent direct firepower supporting them. Just depends on what you want to do at that point.

When i sit down and formulate a hybrid list, i dont know where to start.

Do i build the infantry part first, then the tanks.
Or tanks then infantry.

Either which way, i cant seem to get the balance right.

Chin up!
You're never far off, I think we've just bombarded you a little bit with tips and tricks. Wade through it all and give us a killer list!

I will give you something to use as a framework, then you can adjust based on your play style. I try to run lean, so if you replace something, your probably going to have to drop units. If you can then make something to counter this list, we can offer you advice in how to tweak it, but again it will come down to your play style and use. The main things to consider is how aggressive you want to be. If your really aggressive, then the majority of your list will be attacking. If your not that aggressive, I can see ditching the Chimeras totally and just using the units in the Vendettas as your 'attacking' infantry to get line breaker or capture/contest objectives while you shoot the enemy to pieces.

CCS - 105pts
LC, Standard, Camo Cloaks

Vets - 155pts
3x Melta, Chimera ML/HHF

Vets - 155pts
3x Melta, Chimera ML/HHF

PCS - 125pts
4x melta, Chimera ML/HHF

PIS - 90pts (blobbed)
LC, Plasma, Melta bombs

PIS - 125pts (blobbed)
LC, Plasma, Melta bombs, Commissar

SWS - 50pts (Vendetta)
3x Flamers

SWS - 50pts (Vendetta)
3x Flamers

ADL - 85pts
Icarus LC

Vendetta - 130pts
Vendetta - 130pts

LRBT - 150pts
LRBT - 150pts

1500pts

I just took the gunline list I made before and mixed it up some. You have 3 attacking Chimera and 2 LRBTs, with your Platoon and CCS giving you long range AT. The CCS will issue orders to itself and the blob and a vet in the CCS will man the Icarus LC. You also have two units in the Vendettas that are scoring and they are to either Grav Shute in or disembark when the Vendetta hovers to burn out weak cover save based units. They will die and or run if shot, so keep that in mind. Your blob and CCS should hold your rear pretty solidly. It isn't plasma spam, but you will never worry about 'Get's Hot!' on those Chimeras and you do have some plasma in your rear for DSing terminators (as well as the LCs).

Hope you like it, and if anything inspires you to make your own.

 BlkTom wrote:
I will give you something to use as a framework, then you can adjust based on your play style. I try to run lean, so if you replace something, your probably going to have to drop units. If you can then make something to counter this list, we can offer you advice in how to tweak it, but again it will come down to your play style and use. The main things to consider is how aggressive you want to be. If your really aggressive, then the majority of your list will be attacking. If your not that aggressive, I can see ditching the Chimeras totally and just using the units in the Vendettas as your 'attacking' infantry to get line breaker or capture/contest objectives while you shoot the enemy to pieces.

CCS - 105pts
LC, Standard, Camo Cloaks

Vets - 155pts
3x Melta, Chimera ML/HHF

Vets - 155pts
3x Melta, Chimera ML/HHF

PCS - 125pts
4x melta, Chimera ML/HHF

PIS - 90pts (blobbed)
LC, Plasma, Melta bombs

PIS - 125pts (blobbed)
LC, Plasma, Melta bombs, Commissar

SWS - 50pts (Vendetta)
3x Flamers

SWS - 50pts (Vendetta)
3x Flamers

ADL - 85pts
Icarus LC

Vendetta - 130pts
Vendetta - 130pts

LRBT - 150pts
LRBT - 150pts

1500pts

I just took the gunline list I made before and mixed it up some. You have 3 attacking Chimera and 2 LRBTs, with your Platoon and CCS giving you long range AT. The CCS will issue orders to itself and the blob and a vet in the CCS will man the Icarus LC. You also have two units in the Vendettas that are scoring and they are to either Grav Shute in or disembark when the Vendetta hovers to burn out weak cover save based units. They will die and or run if shot, so keep that in mind. Your blob and CCS should hold your rear pretty solidly. It isn't plasma spam, but you will never worry about 'Get's Hot!' on those Chimeras and you do have some plasma in your rear for DSing terminators (as well as the LCs).

Hope you like it, and if anything inspires you to make your own.

I took this list and worked over it a bit. I took into account everything that has been said to me, so far, and I've come up with a list that satisfies most (if not all) the critera your guys suggested and i like it. Not to mention i've 110 points left over and i need help spending them

HQ (85):
Company Command Squad w/ Regimental Standard, Lascannon – 85

Troops (775):
Veteran Squad w/ 3 Meltaguns – 100
Chimera w/ Multi-laser, Heavy Flamer – 55
Veteran Squad w/ 3 Plasmaguns – 115
Chimera w/ Multi-laser, Heavy Flamer – 55
• Platoon Command Squad w/ 4 Flamers – 50
Chimera w/ Multi-laser, Heavy Flamer – 55
o Infantry Squad w/ Lascannon – 70
o Infantry Squad w/ Lascannon – 70
o Infantry Squad w/ Lascannon – 70
o Infantry Squad w/ Lascannon – 70
o Special Weapon Squad w/ 2 Flamers, Demo Charge – 65

Fast Attack (130):
Vendetta – 130

Heavy Support (300):
Leman Russ Battle Tank – 150
Leman Russ Battle Tank – 150

Fortifications (100):
Aegis Defence Line w/ Quad-gun – 100

So, there we have it. The most recent adaptation of my list. We have 3 chimera and 2 LRBTs as an attacking force as well as a vendetta and a SWS team with some templates. Not to mention 45 guardsmen behind an ADL.
Now i have 110 points left over. Not enough for another tank, unfortunately. How do you think i should spend them? PGs on my infantry squads? a HWT?

Comment and Criticism welcome, as always

I really hate to burst your bubble, but hybrid lists are awful. When you're only taking 2 chimerae, they're going to be targeted down very quickly and won't survive long. They're pretty flimsy! The only way mech lists get around this is by bringing 4-6 chimerae coupled with 2-4 AV:12 HS options to distract fire.

Here you have nice little subsets for your opponent to focus on:

LRs: oh! Here is where I shoot my melta and LCs
Chimerae: Oh, ACs and MLs shoot these!
Platoon: I guess this is what I brought my high volume firepower and blasts for
1 Flier: Man, that Quadgun I paid 50pts for was worth it!

You're basically designing a list that is countered by everyone. You need to focus what you want. Bring more of that one focus than your opponent can handle, or you're just helping them justify taking their variety of weaponry.

I think basilisks need to be separate units the most because of the minimum range. You will need one in each corner of the board ideally. If you play a board which is 48" wide and you're deploying on each side there's so little they can hit if they are next to eachother.

I absolutely love the basilisk model and have always wanted them but I can't think of a practical use for them unless the board is huge. On a 48" by 72" (Realm of battle size) you're only really guaranteed to be able to fire into the deployment zone on the first turn if they are in a squadron. After that, I guess you can have fun with the basilisk's heavy bolter, and maybe ramming someone!

 Griddlelol wrote:
I really hate to burst your bubble, but hybrid lists are awful. When you're only taking 2 chimerae, they're going to be targeted down very quickly and won't survive long. They're pretty flimsy! The only way mech lists get around this is by bringing 4-6 chimerae coupled with 2-4 AV:12 HS options to distract fire.

Here you have nice little subsets for your opponent to focus on:

LRs: oh! Here is where I shoot my melta and LCs
Chimerae: Oh, ACs and MLs shoot these!
Platoon: I guess this is what I brought my high volume firepower and blasts for
1 Flier: Man, that Quadgun I paid 50pts for was worth it!

You're basically designing a list that is countered by everyone. You need to focus what you want. Bring more of that one focus than your opponent can handle, or you're just helping them justify taking their variety of weaponry.

My list seems to have that problem at least until I get more chimeras or 3 vendettas.

But surely if everyone builds hybrid lists the problem is the same for both sides?

foxyfennec wrote:
I think basilisks need to be separate units the most because of the minimum range. You will need one in each corner of the board ideally. If you play a board which is 48" wide and you're deploying on each side there's so little they can hit if they are next to eachother.

I'm not sure you're aware of the 6th ed removal of minimum range on weapons. The basilisk can shoot at any range from 1" to 240" (or whatever it's max range is) although risking a scatter is tactical folly.

But surely if everyone builds hybrid lists the problem is the same for both sides?

Not everyone builds hybrid lists though.

Zambro wrote:


I took this list and worked over it a bit. I took into account everything that has been said to me, so far, and I've come up with a list that satisfies most (if not all) the critera your guys suggested and i like it. Not to mention i've 110 points left over and i need help spending them

list

So, there we have it. The most recent adaptation of my list. We have 3 chimera and 2 LRBTs as an attacking force as well as a vendetta and a SWS team with some templates. Not to mention 45 guardsmen behind an ADL.
Now i have 110 points left over. Not enough for another tank, unfortunately. How do you think i should spend them? PGs on my infantry squads? a HWT?

Comment and Criticism welcome, as always

Griddlelol is right to point out the flaws of a hybrid list, though I think he could have put it alittle different. That is the main problem with a hybrid list is that only half of your force is attacking, which means your opponent only really have to deal with half of your army at one time, It is the same problem with a deep striking force or even a outflanking force... deal with the few things on the board turn 1-2 and then take on the rest as it comes on, specially if the dice are against you. Most lists are built with the idea of 'I am doing this one aspect of the game better than my opponent and I am beating him with that aspect.' To reach that goal, you overload. I am not sending 3 Chimeras, I am sending 8 and he can't kill them all before they get up close and do their damage. Same thing with Terminator lists, Flying Necron lists, bike lists, ect... But you said you wanted to make a hybrid list, so I will do what I can to help you make one. End of the day, it is what you want to do and what you want to play that matters.

Concerning your current list, there are some aspects that worry me. You want two Vendettas... I am close to saying you need two. Flyers are a new aspect of the game and even though they are expensive, this is why nearly every list has a ADL with a AA gun. Vendettas are just that good, plain and simple. They got nerfed and are still the flyer you hold up as the example of what you should be afraid of. The general line of thought is if the vehicle is worth it, always get two so one lives long enough to do it's job. Always keep that in mind. Next subject...

Your PIS are a concern to me. If you blob them, they need 5 guys killed before they can run and they do a great job of protecting the LC HWTs hiding in them against general fire. But you didn't say they are blobbed, so I have to assume they are single units. This means you kill 3 guys and they are making a morale check. Even if they are within range of the banner, it is a 8. They are going to be within 12" of your table edge, so if you do fail, there is a chance they could run off and be lost. If you get assaulted, you better hope they kill all of your guys in the first turn so the other units can turn and shoot them. Blob them, give them a Commissar for Ld 9 and a re-roll even if your out of range of the Banner (or it gets killed). The points are not sexy and it is a lot of points, but PIS not in Vehicles work best blobbed. And yes, they should have some sort of special weapon... melta, plasma, or flamer, as all 3 are defensive weapons in this case. Personally, I would go plasma, because of the 2 shots and synergy with your lasguns for rapid fire range.

The last thing I will cover is some of the load-outs of your units... I had camo cloaks on your CCS to give them Stealth because they are behind a ADL to give them a 3+ cover save, 2+ if you go to ground (note you can not issue Orders when you have gone to ground). I think you need to play a few games to see how huge Orders are for IG on foot. For example, if you have your current CCS manning your Quad gun on your ADL, you realize that your CCS LC has to fire at Flyers if your quad gun is on your turn, right? (assuming you didn't use the Intercept rule on your opponent's turn so you can fire the quad gun this turn) Well, your LC is only hitting on a 6 (ignoring their BS 4), so how do you make this better? You could issue to your CCS 'Bring it Down!' to make your LC twin linked... but your quad gun already is twin linked. But if you issue 'Fire on my Target!', you will give both your Quad gun and your LC the ability to ignore cover saves of the flyer... and that is /really/ huge for your quad gun.

To switch gears, the demo charge gives you flexibility on your SWS, but they still have to get close to something to use it, hope it doesn't kill them in the process, and if used against things in cover (so you can use your flamers as well), they will get a cover save which kinda cancels out the AP 2 of the weapon. If you do want a Demo charge, get Marbro... he is pretty much a Demo charge anywhere on the board for 65pts.

It can be really cool to throw a scoring unit in a Vendetta and have that option... but if you need to save points, running them empty is an option. Just using them for Air-to-Air combat, or even round attack AT is the main role for them. Three TLed LCs is the frosting on that cake, carrying troops is the sprinkles on top! If you got points to throw troops in them, cool. If not, don't sweat it.

This can also be said of the LRBTs in your list... Yes they are AV 14, but they can be shot past to your Chimeras and really only give them a cover save if your lucky. Your opponent might just ignore them just to kill your Chimeras. I don't know if plain Jane LRBTs will really do anything for you and really scare your opponent. If you want to keep moving and shooting, consider non-ordnance turret weapons (well, if you don't want to snap fire your hull or sponson weapons). Look at the Eradicator or the Demolisher, or even the Exterminator and Punisher. Those tanks can all give your list something that it doesn't have... ignore cover shots from the Eradicator screws cover based units (Invisibility, Clowns, ADL, ect). Str 10, AP 2 from the Demolisher crushes anything not in cover and can wipe out Terminators in one shot. Four TLed AC shots (Exterminator) and Twenty str 5 shots (Punisher) give hoards something to fear and can give you some light AT, MC killing ability, or even something to throw at Flyers if you have to (since template, beam, and marker weapons do not effect Flyers). Plenty of options IMO.

I feel that if you want to make your Hybrid as lean as possible you want to keep the PISs down to 2, make sure everyone has special weapons, and cram in as many Chimeras as possible. If it wasn't for the 'Slay the Warlord' point, I would even have your CCS in a Chimera charging forward. But they are to valuable for that now and can help your PISs by making them better. The PCS can still do this, but Flamers on a chimera are not worth it. Your better off using the hull heavy flamer and using 4x Melta guns. Even at BS 3, your going to be hitting on average the same number of times a Vet squad with 3 meltas would be... but for 40pts cheaper. Heck, if you do 4 PIS, your really better off going 2 Platoons and using the second PCS for what your using a SWS for... and for cheaper and more special weapon slots. The only thing you lose is the ability to have a Demo Charge.

Hope this helps...

thanks BlkTom, thats alot of help.

I'm all for mech lists, but how do i do the chimera spam you were talking about? 6 chimers w/ plas vets are 1020 points. That doesn't leave a lot of room for anything else.

Oh, the PIS were blobbed - into 20man squads. should have made that clear.

I really dont know where to go from here. I guess this is where my IG inexperiance is coming in.

I will give you a example of a 1500 point Mech list, Might not be the best, or current tourney build, but will give you an example of how to build one so you can work on your own.

CCS - 205pts
2x Plasma guns, LC, Officer of the Fleet, Chimera with camo netting and Hull HB

Vets - 170pts
3x plasma guns, Chimera with HHF

Vets - 155pts
3x melta, Chimera with HHF

Vets - 155pts
3x melta, Chimera with HHF

Vets - 155pts
3x melta, Chimera with HHF

Vets - 155pts
3x melta, Chimera with HHF

PCS - 125pts
4x Melta guns, Chimera with HHF

PIS - 60pts (Vendetta)
Melta gun or Flamer - your choice

PIS - 60pts (Vendetta)
Melta gun or Flamer - your choice

Vendetta - 130pts

Vendetta - 130pts

1500pts

Here is what I would kinda do... find rules for Combat Patrol level games and start small to get a feel for the game and IG in general. They are normally 400pts and depending on the rules (I normally play Adepticon Combat Patrol rules) they can do things like limit multi-wound units, AV 13+, 2+ saves, ect. Just get 400pts of stuff (or proxy stuff) and go to your local store and just play small games, trying out different units and see what you go against (Oh... that is nasty... I better make sure my next list can deal with /that/). Try out different units and figure out what you like to play and how you play it. This also saves you some money so you don't buy a ton of stuff (Chimeras and Vendettas are not cheap my friend) and end up not using it. It really comes down to play, play, play!

HQ (85):
Company Command Squad w/ Regimental Standard, Lascannon – 85

Troops (775):
Veteran Squad w/ 3 Meltaguns – 100
Chimera w/ Multi-laser, Heavy Flamer – 55
Veteran Squad w/ 3 Plasmaguns – 115
Chimera w/ Multi-laser, Heavy Flamer – 55
• Platoon Command Squad w/ 4 Flamers – 50
Chimera w/ Multi-laser, Heavy Flamer – 55
o Infantry Squad w/ Lascannon – 70
o Infantry Squad w/ Lascannon – 70
o Infantry Squad w/ Lascannon – 70
o Infantry Squad w/ Lascannon – 70
o Special Weapon Squad w/ 2 Flamers, Demo Charge – 65

Fast Attack (130):
Vendetta – 130

Heavy Support (300):
Leman Russ Battle Tank – 150
Leman Russ Battle Tank – 150

Fortifications (100):
Aegis Defence Line w/ Quad-gun – 100

WIth 110 points left to buy things I think you have a reasonable list. A couple of extra chimeras (gives you some target saturation), chimera and marbo or a chimera and a griffon spring to mind. Then there's potential for fiddling around with the list after a few games (putting lascannons into teams rather than in units etc) just to see what works for you.

Thoughts on some of the previous comments are:
An emeny ADL is not an guaranteed kill of the Vendetta; firstly they have to have one, deployed midfield and then get lucky with the dice.
Power armoured armies will hate the LRBT, even more if you can sit them 1" from the edge of the board (hide the soft rear armour)!
The best bit about such a hybrid list is that the stuff inside the chimeras is relatively cheap so if you want to be stationary for the first few turns and just shoot things up you can do; if you find yourself facing infiltrators/deep strikers/ out flanker / general quick things - and you have kept your force together - you have the melta / plasmaguns and LOADS of heavy flamers handy to deal with it.
Switching a LRBT for a Dakka LRTB could be an option to look into.
If you do go for more chimeras keeping some with heavy bolters may give you more options in a game.