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Had a game against my buddy, we are new to FoW, and he utterly massacred me with fireflies and artillery. I was playing a list from Grey Wolf. My list was:

Company HQ: 1 Tiger 1e

combat platoons-

2 tiger 1e
2 tiger 1e
2 tiger 1e

support-

3 sdfkz anti air
2 jagdpanzer 4's
1 gepanzert grenadiers
5 stug G


He killed 1200 points of my 2540 point army on the first turn, with me going first. I was unable to do any real damage to him first turn, and it went to hell from there. He had two artillery platoons, one big one small, the big one took out 4 stugs and all three sdkfz AA in one shot. Then his fireflies killed 3 of my 7 tigers in the same turn. I got tabled in three turns. How the heck is the artillery this good, it seems way too powerful to be right.

What can I do to counter him?

Artillery:

1) avoid line of sight to the artillery or spotting teams
2) use cover to make it harder to range in
3) spread out as much as you can. Use your full command distance if able, he can only hit whatever is under the template.

Firefly:

What list/book was he using? Against the new AT 15 17pds Tigers appear a bit overcosted. I think the new Bridge by Bridge book has Tigers a bit cheaper to show their loss of value as allied weapons became able to deal with them better.

But the biggest lesson for people playing Germans is that the big cats are not super tanks. They blow up, just like Sherman's do. How does your opponent play his Sherman's compared to the way you play your Tigers? Are you using all the cover you can, or are you just counting on your front armor to save you against them.

Saying "he blew up all my stuff and tabled me" doesn't help all that much without telling us what tactics you guys used. Maybe play another game with the same list and take pictures and post a batrep.

Did you bunch your things up? Use command distance (8" for Veteran armored vehicles I believe) and unless he uses a double width template he should only be able to hit one of you. Spread your stuff out as much as you can, especially when you're in the open, and the effectiveness of his artillery will be reduced.

Your list wasn't all that strong to be honest. Jadpanzer 4s are sort of redundant there when you already have some Stugs. I'd suggest taking three stugs instead, drop the Jadgpanzers and take some artillery of your own. Range in on his artillery with yours and pin the buggers down!
A company of Panzer 4s would probably be more effective than a company of Tigers. They're cheaper, faster and almost as good AT wise in all honesty. Anti-tank 11 or 13? Doesn't make much difference; against allied tanks you're going to be penetrating most things pretty easily.

Juggle things around a bit; it you have any recce, take advantage of their survivability and maneuverability to go round the rear of his force and harass his artillery with that instead. Pin them down at least and he has to un-pin to fire a bombardment again, and most allied forces are Confident so he's on a 50/50 there.

Air support is also effective against artillery, provided its not covered by lots of AA!

HArd to give advice when you're using such high points values (more used to 1750) but you need to spread out as has been mentioned, use cover to make ranging in harder, and have your own artillery/air to counter (remember turn they fire the save is 5+)

look on the bright side he didn't get to do an all guns repeat, that would have really hurt you!

On addition to the above use the 'gun tank' rule against Firefly's and shoot at the artillery (remember that they can't be concealed in the open or when they are dug in in the open) to reduce them to two or fewer gun teams before moving on to other targets.

Looking at your list, you could definintley use some better support options other that more armour units. Some rocket or armoured rocket arty to dump smoke down for your infantry, SP AA and and Tigers to move up would be a great help.

Yes, he was using the new Firefly rules, with the anti tank of 15. That is crazy good for a tank that doesnt cost very many points.

He can't be concealed in the open, even if dug in? He was playing that he was, and that I had to pass firepower tests to damage him too. We are new so I am not crying foul, as neither of us is likely to have known that.

Will have to check out A Bridge Too Far and see what I can do with that book.

Thanks for the opinions!

Dave

One thing that stands out to me (in addition to the very good points that others have made) is that you cannot win games with Tigers on their own. Actuallly you will struggle to win any game solely using tanks, unless your opponent also only has tanks.

As in real life, armies work best with combined arms (says he with an army that has no tanks at all in it!) But seriously, a tank force on its own will always struggle against a mixed force of tanks, infantry and artillery - even in desert type environments with lots of open ground (although that wont be as bad).

Each element has its strengths and weaknesses, advantages and disadvantages. The trick is to use each of your arms to complement the others, using the strength of one to cover the weakness of the other. Tanks cannot defend a small village very easily, you need infantry for that. Similarly, an infantry charge across open ground is just going to get stopped dead. For that you need armor.

Tanks give you mobility and firepower, Infantry give coverage over a large area and strong defensive power (especially in built up areas and difficult terrain). Artillery suppress and blind enemies and keep them pinned back.

Heavy and Immobile gun teams do not get concealement from being dug in or gone to ground unless also concealed by terrain, I.e woods! An easy mistake to make, I only recently discovered that myself. He is correct though, a firepower test is needed against guns with a gun shield when the shot comes from a line drawn across the front of the shield (unless the gun moved). Or when he is dug in! So if you get behind the gunshield and he is dug in you still need a firepower test.
Still as you said, you guys are only learning. But it will relieve you to realise that really big guns are easy to spot! Most people at my club (myself included) have made this mistake and some of them have been playing for years and years!

Company HQ: 1 Tiger 1e

combat platoons-

2 tiger 1e
2 tiger 1e
2 tiger 1e

support-

3 sdfkz anti air
2 jagdpanzer 4's
1 gepanzert grenadiers
5 stug G

Lose the 2 Jagdpanzer IVa, 1 Combat Platoon of Tigers and 1 Stug...

Get yourself some Pak40s... cheaper and can hide to surprise...
Get some Wespes... Some counterbattery fire is good.
Is he not spending any points on AA? If so, some limited Air support to directly pound his artillery.
Some armored rocket launchers - again counterbattery fire.
Some gepanzert mortar carriers to drop some smoke to cover and conceal yourself.

Set your tanks up reverse slope behind hills with good fields of fire. Use your movement rule to pop up on the hill, fire, and then move back behind the hill. Sure lower rate of fire but no targets for fireflys or artillery. If you can, use those PaK40s to ambush him when he tries to rush that hill. LOL.

What about a few snipers? Wouldn't they be able to pin artillery (for cheap)?

For Tank Company could you take the stug with the smoke and smoke them?

Phydox wrote:
What about a few snipers? Wouldn't they be able to pin artillery (for cheap)?

For Tank Company could you take the stug with the smoke and smoke them?

I think the only StuG that can drop smoke is the earlier 75/24 armed version or the StuH42 with the 105. Both would be inferior anti-tank and not sure whether they are even options with the book he is using.

He was lucky. Artillery has a fairly low kill chance against armour. Massed artillery does do quite well against Tigers though.

The best thing that you can do is take air as it is the most reliable thing in your arsenal for neutralising artillery platoons in the open.

Counter battery fire is hit and miss, it can work but it ties up alot of points and it will usually be hard to get LoS to the enemy artillery.

Hiding won't work that well if he has an AOP (and he probably does), good spacing works well though.

The big problem with Tiger heavy lists is that they just don't work all that well against lists that are more than medium tank hordes. When firing at infantry or gun teams you may as well use Pz IVs and armour 9 doesn't mean much in LW.

The other obvious problem with Tigers is all your points in one basked. You lose 1 or 2 and you are losing 25% of your awesome firepower...

That is why at minimum, I would lose one platoon of Tigers and replace with a mortar platoon to provide some cover for the big cats and perhaps more infantry or PaK40s - the ability to surprise enemy tanks is invaluable... Usually no one values the light recon elements and plinking the side armor of mediums with AV 12 shots will give that squadron of shermans a bloody nose.

DAaddict wrote:
The other obvious problem with Tigers is all your points in one basked. You lose 1 or 2 and you are losing 25% of your awesome firepower...

That is why at minimum, I would lose one platoon of Tigers and replace with a mortar platoon to provide some cover for the big cats and perhaps more infantry or PaK40s - the ability to surprise enemy tanks is invaluable... Usually no one values the light recon elements and plinking the side armor of mediums with AV 12 shots will give that squadron of shermans a bloody nose.

Good points, we are going to play again in about an hour. totally new type of list i am taking.

Anyways, I have another question, can you fire AA flak guns at anything besides aircraft? So lets say i take a platoon of 2cm flak guns can i fire them at his infantry?

Yup! Infantry, thin-skinned armored vehicles, tanks, whatever!

WOW, those flak guns were useless. The short range and lack of maneuverability was a major bummer. Not enough anti tank to damage his shermans was also a major issue. Will be reconsidering looking for something else to use the points on.

So, my list was:

Grenadier kompanie

command squad, panzerfaust, panzerknacker team

3x panzergrenadiers, 6 teams plus hq

3x stug g

3x stug g

3x pak 40(these are the most effective thing i have used yet)

3x 2cm flak guns

It did not go well, was getting handled, but I managed to get his company command and 2iC with my pak 40's and he failed his morale, lucky win!