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I just dive back in the hobby after a long hiatus and I'm trying to figure out schedule / strategy to built a space marine Salamander army. I made lists for 500, 1000, 1500, 2000 points trying to built my way to a nice strength. I'm not looking to have the most competitive army, but I don't want to have an anti-competitive army either :p I built the list based on unit I'm looking to paint / converted, etc ... But I'm not against majors and/or minors changes. I read in several other army list topic, that the best HQ for small armies is just a librarian, but I already bought a captain, so for now, and for the smaller armies, I'm stuck with it Any comments are welcomed ! Here are the lists :

Total Points 490
HQ
Captain 135
combimelta powersword Digital weapons

Troops
Tactical Squad ML flamer 170
Tactical Squad Meltagun MM Combimelta 185
--------------------------

Total Points 1000
HQ
Captain 125
combimelta powersword

Troops
Tactical Squad ML flamer 170
Tactical Squad Meltagun MM Combimelta 185

Elites
Assault Terminator 200

Fast Attack
Assault Squad (5) 130
Pair of Lightning claws

Support
Dev Squad 2 ML 2 LS 190
---------------------------------------

Total Points 1495
HQ
Vulkan He'stan 190

Troops
Tactical Squad ML flamer 170
Tactical Squad Meltagun MM Combimelta 185

Elites
Assault Terminator 440
LR Redeemer

Fast Attack
Assault Squad (5) 240
Pair of Lightning claws
2 flamer

Land Speeder 2MM 80

Support
Dev Squad 2 ML 2 LS 190
-------------------------------

Total Points 1995
HQ
Vulkan He'stan 190

Librarian 100
Cmd Squad 115

Troops
Tactical Squad ML flamer 170
Tactical Squad Meltagun MM Combimelta 185

Elites
Assault Terminator 440
LR Redeemer

Dreadnought 125
2 TL auto

Dreadnought 125
2 TL auto

Fast Attack
Assault Squad (10) 240
Pair of Lightning claws
2 flamer

Land Speeder 2MM 80

Support
Dev Squad 2ML 2 LS 190
-------------------------------------

Just looking at the captain: digital weapons are not worth the points for a single wound re roll. And with the combo melts negating bonus attacks in cc, I would recommend the relic blade. Especially if you are going to be assaulting at all with your cap'n. It's more points but str 6 makes the digital weapons not needed for sure. Plus you can use the same model for either Version of sword you choose to carry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I noticed a lack of anti air, which depends on who you are playing and if they have/use fliers or not. In a tournament setting its a must have in my opinion.
In my little experience, an aegis defence line is an easy and economical way to get anti air.
Anywho, I would also recommend some transports for your tac squads. They are cheap at 1500 to 2000 point games, and keep them alive longer.
Drop pod them to get to the point and melts the guy.
Or use a rhino to live and drive to the objectives.

I feel you have too few weapons to justify Vulcan's cost in you list.
It might be best to just keep the Librarian as HQ (and give him TDA & SS) if he is riding with the termies.
The other approach is to keep Vulcan and capitalise on his abilities, possibily by Drop Podding your army.
Keep in mind that you cannot take a Command squad with Vulcan (and do not need it tbh)
Other than that, unfortunately, time has proven that assault and devastator squads are our codex in its lowest..
You will find much better choices for the same slots (p.e. an auto/las predator gives almost the same amount of firepower as you dv squad for 70 pts less)
And in 6th just 2 troops will not cut it anymore.. Keep in mind the sniper scouts, with camo cloaks they are great objective campers
To keep it simple, you have to decide first if you want Vulcan or not (meaning a mid-to short ranged list or more of a gunline), and build from there

General rule is one troop choice per 500 points, I would add at least two more troops and take advantage of Vulkan's special rule

500 Points:
Overall, I like your list but knowing you are going to end up with Vulkan, I would probably duplicate your MM/Melta/Combi-Meltasquad and lose the digital weapons.

1000 Points:
The weak part of your army list going forward is the assault squad. A lot of points to deliver a 1-shot twin flamer hit.
The devastators I would be tempted to just put 4 Multi-meltas... Sure they are short ranged but you are going to go Vulkan so you are going to end up with TL Multimeltas... That means you can move them and still be the equivalent of BS 2.
The terminators I will talk alternatives later. They are good but become a points sink in your army.

1500 Points:

The Dakka dreads are great. Don't get me wrong but because Vulkan armies tend to get up-close and personal, I would prefer MM/HF dreads or better yet, ironclads with HF. Ironclads are krak grenade immune and can take the place of your terminators for a lot less.

2000 points: I will work through an Alternative listing to let you think about it.

2000 points:

HQ: Vulkan 190
HQ: Librarian (null zone) 100
( It says we need a captain to get a command squad so we don't qualify)

Elite: Ironclad Melta, Heavy Flamer, Chainfist 140
Elite: Ironclad Melta, Heavy Flamer, Chainfist 140
Elite: 8 Sternguard: 2 Heavy Flamers, 6 Combi-Meltas in Rhino 285

Troop: 10 Tacticals: MM, Melta, Combi-Melta in Rhino 220
Troop: 10 Tacticals: MM, Melta, Combi Melta in Rhino 220
Troop: 10 Tacticals: MM, Melta, Combi Melta in Rhino 220

3x Attack Bikes w MM 150
3x Attack Bikes w MM 150
3x Attack Bikes w MM 150

Dropping the Devastators... too pricey for me besides you have all these tactical MM!!
1965 - Add 35 points in upgrades... 1 HK missile per Iron Clad and Power Axe to Sternguard Sergeant...2000

1500 Lose 6 Attack Bikes and 1 Tactical run your attack bikes as singles... -520
1000 Lose 2 Sternguardwith Hvy Flamers, Both Iron Clads and 3 attack bikes -500
500 Lose Vulkan, Sternguard and both Tactical Rhinos

That should leave you with

HQ: Librarian 100
Troop: 10 Tacticals: Combi-Melta, Melta, MM 185
Troop: 10 Tacticals: Combi-Melta, Melta, MM 185

470 ( Add power swords/power axes to the sergeants or sub a Powerfist Sergent for Combi-Meltas and you have 500)

Thanks a lot for these comments. A lot of things to think about now

Just looking at the captain: digital weapons are not worth the points for a single wound re roll. And with the combo melts negating bonus attacks in cc, I would recommend the relic blade. Especially if you are going to be assaulting at all with your cap'n. It's more points but str 6 makes the digital weapons not needed for sure. Plus you can use the same model for either Version of sword you choose to carry.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I noticed a lack of anti air, which depends on who you are playing and if they have/use fliers or not. In a tournament setting its a must have in my opinion.
In my little experience, an aegis defence line is an easy and economical way to get anti air.
Anywho, I would also recommend some transports for your tac squads. They are cheap at 1500 to 2000 point games, and keep them alive longer.

I'm going to check the equipment of the captain.
What would you recommend against fliyer. I don't think I want to go with an aegis defense line, what other option could give me a good alternative?
For the rino, I badly copy my list, the MM/melta had a rino at 2000, but I'm going to try to have all my tac squad in rino.

@spartiatis and DAaddict:
For Vulkan melta/flamer in the list. I understand the dilemma. If I play with Vulkan, I should play with a lot of melta/flamer, so a short range army, which my list is not really. But I think I prefer to do the opposite. Drop Vulkan and have a more long range / shooty army. What would be a good HQ option in this case?

About the Assault terminator, I think I really like them and would like to keep them in my larger army list. Are they any effective, or I should really drop them?

If I understand, the assault marine are really not worth their point. What about Vangard with jump pack, are they any good? (I think I quite like the jump pack look of the minis )

I quite like the Attack bikes idea. Maybe not 9 of them with the exact same weapons but it sounds good to have a unit of them to flank the opponent.


I didn't specified it but I want to have a balanced army, able to take on any other army, flier heavy, tank heavy, horde etc ...

 damek wrote:

For Vulkan melta/flamer in the list. I understand the dilemma. If I play with Vulkan, I should play with a lot of melta/flamer, so a short range army, which my list is not really. But I think I prefer to do the opposite. Drop Vulkan and have a more long range / shooty army. What would be a good HQ option in this case?

If youre looking for a long range shooty HQ option you could consider a Master of the Forge with Conversion Beamer on bike. Its pretty much the shootiest a marine HQ gets and depending on range can be pretty devastating, and I believe he still gets to fortify a ruin for you.

 damek wrote:

@spartiatis and DAaddict:
For Vulkan melta/flamer in the list. I understand the dilemma. If I play with Vulkan, I should play with a lot of melta/flamer, so a short range army, which my list is not really. But I think I prefer to do the opposite. Drop Vulkan and have a more long range / shooty army. What would be a good HQ option in this case?

About the Assault terminator, I think I really like them and would like to keep them in my larger army list. Are they any effective, or I should really drop them?

If I understand, the assault marine are really not worth their point. What about Vangard with jump pack, are they any good? (I think I quite like the jump pack look of the minis )

I quite like the Attack bikes idea. Maybe not 9 of them with the exact same weapons but it sounds good to have a unit of them to flank the opponent.


I didn't specified it but I want to have a balanced army, able to take on any other army, flier heavy, tank heavy, horde etc ...

Vulkan is really for upclose and personnal. So if you don't want to be up close and personnal, I would recommend Pedro - he allows sternguard to work like troops and control objectives plus he is a chapter master meaning he allows you to shoot one nasty Orbital Bombardment. Now comes the hard part, if you want firepower and vehicles, I would spam razorbacks. If you don't I would look at an Aegos Defense Line with Quad Gun or Icarus Lascannon. If we want to do this on the cheap, the best is not to go vehicles...

Assalt Terminators are a tough choice, are they effective? Yes, providing they can get into hand-to-hand combat. That is the rub. They are not ideal for deep striking (no charge and no fire) and require a landraider to be used aggressively. (Very pricey)

Vanguard Vets are good but they are high priced and susceptible to being shot to pieces... They are a lot better with an attached Chaplain.

The other option to Pedro would be a Master of the Forge. He can get a conversion beamer and be quite mobile if given a bike. He also opens up Dreadnoughts as Heavy choices meaning you could run 6 Dreadnoughts!!!

I will build an on-foot Pedro list with an emphasis on long range. Also - to preserve firepower - I will scratch the Assault Terminators and go with a Chaplian with Jump Pack and the Vanguard Vets...

So

HQ: Pedro Kantor 175
HQ: Chaplain with Jump Pack : 115
HQ: Honor Guard: 4 Honor Guard: 1 with Relic Blade 165

Elite: 5 Sternguard 125
Elite: 5 Sternguard 125
Elite: 5 Sternguard 125

Troop: 10 Tacticals: Combi-Flamer, Plasma Gun, Missile Launcher 190
Troop: SAME 190
Troop: 10 Scouts: Sniper-rifle, Camo Cloaks, Tellion, Missile Launcher 230

3 Attack Bikes w Multi-Melta 150 either as 1 group of 3 or group of 1 and group of 2.

1 Thunderfire Cannon 100

ADL w Quad Gun 100

1800 points...

5 Vanguard Vets with Jump packs: All with Melta Bombs... 200

2000 points

Your 2 Tacticals set up inside the ADL the 3 Sternguard also set up inside along with the Thunderfire Cannon.
The techmarine bolsters the defense of one ruin or forest and the snipers set up inside that.
The honor guard and Pedro are also in the ADL with Pedro manning the Quad Gun.
The Vanguard Vets and the Chaplain hide behind cover ready to intercept any enemy that gets too close.
The attack bikes also set up in cover and wait for an enemy monstrous creature or vehicle to threaten...
The tacticals have the best range possible with one anti-charge - the combi-flamer.

This gives you a lot of range with two decent counterattack units.

The sternguard can eat up monstrous creatures and any on foot personnel.

Unfortunately, the Vanguard are by far the most overpriced unit and not cost effective..
As mentioned above, the Assault termies are devastating when in combat but the only effective delivery method is a Land Raider and the points add up...
If you spend almost 500 pts for the combo, you only need an unlucky round of saves and game over..

As it is, according to my experience, vanilla marines are are best played as a shooty army with lots of models on the table.

For a more gunline army, you can take

plain Libby or Master of the Forge with conversion beamer
2-3 tacticals
sniper scouts

Rifleman Dreads (2x tl Autocannons)
Typhoon speders and stormtalons
auto/las Predators and thunderfire cannons

PS Did i mention thunderfire cannons? They are awesome this edition!!

And do not forget, take thunderfire cannons!!

Thanks again for the comments and advise. I worked from your list and suggestion and came up with the following list. What do you think about it? Since I'm quite a newbie, I'm sure I'm making tons of mistake in the lists :p but maybe it's coming a bit better? Thanks again to take the time to have look at them and commented them.

+++ 2000 Points (1930pts) +++

HQ + (290pts)
* Chaplain (115pts) Jump Pack
* Chapter Master Pedro Kantor (175pts)

+ Elites + (250pts)
* 10 Sternguard Veteran Squad (250pts)

* Dreadnought (Heavy) (125pts) 2 TL autocannon
* Dreadnought (Heavy) (125pts) 2 TL autocannon

+ Troops + (715pts)
* Tactical Squad (260pts) Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun
Razorback Lascannon and Twin-Linked Plasma Gun

* Tactical Squad (220pts) Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Combi-Melta
Rhino

* Tactical Squad (235pts) Flamer, Missile Launcher (I would combat squad them, the flamer/sgt/3 guys going in the razorback to be close and personal with the flamer, the ML staying in the back)
Razorback (65pts) Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer

+ Fast Attack + (325pts)
* Attack Bike Squadron 3x Multi-Melta
* 5 Vanguard Veteran Squad (175pts) Jump pack

+ Heavy Support + (100pts)
* Thunderfire Cannon (100pts)


Edit: I really wanted to put a assault terminator squad in it, but with the cost and the LR, it takes too much space. So sad because I really like how the minis look like :p

This looks good!

The only suggestion is don't take the double heavy flamer on the razorback - a base one with TL heavy bolters is at least going to be able to reach out and touch infantry... Perhaps, if you can afford it, get a TL HB razorback for the sterngard too... never enough firepower... If you can, you may want to get all three Las/plas... these are the best firepower layout...

The other is - if you worry about airpower, the ADL with quad gun. It is fairly cheap and a good investment.


If you really like the TH/SS terminators, switch them in for the chaplain and vanguard vets... They are a good "come and get it" counterattack unit just very dependent on placement...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you can slip it in, the other suggestion is to take a 5-man scout unit of snipers, ML and camo cloaks. I am not sure but I think it runs you 100 points. With the techmarine manning the thunderfire cannon, he gets to improve the cover of one ruin or terrain piece... So the normal 4+ cover save becomes a 3+ cover save then the camo cloak improves that to 2+!!! That makes those scouts really hard to knock out of cover.

After a lot of though, I have settled on that list. I decide to go for TH/SS Term instead of assault marines. They might not be the mos optimal choice, but I like their fluff, and the idea that they can tank a lot of fire / attacks and might still be alive after :p

1995 Points:

HQ (295pts)
Chapter Master Pedro Kantor (175pts)
Master of the Forge (120pts)
Conversion Beamer

Elites (460pts)
Sternguard Veteran Squad (260pts)
2x Combi-Flamer, 9x Veteran, Space Marine Sergeant
Terminator Squad 5x TH/SS (200pts)

Troops (740pts)
Tactical Squad (270pts)
Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun, Combi-Plasma (10pts)
Razorback, Lascannon and Twin-Linked Plasma Gun

Tactical Squad (225pts)
Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Combi-Melta
Rhino Dozer blade

Tactical Squad (245pts)
Flamer, Missile Launcher
Razorback Lascannon and Twin-Linked Plasma Gun (35pts)

Fast Attack (150pts)
Attack Bike Squadron (150pts)
3x Multi-Melta (10pts)

Heavy Support (350pts)
Dreadnought (Heavy) (125pts)
2x Twin-Linked Autocannon
Dreadnought (Heavy) (125pts)
2x Twin-Linked Autocannon
Thunderfire Cannon (100pts)
---------------------------------------


To reach that point I'm first going to go the the following 1000 Points list :
995 Points:

HQ (115pts)
Captain (115pts)
Bolt Pistol, Power Armour, Power Weapon

Elites (485pts)
Dreadnought (125pts)
2x Twin-Linked Autocannon

Sternguard Veteran Squad (160pts)
2x Combi-Flamer (10pts), 5x Veteran + Space Marine Sergeant

Terminator Squad 5x TH/SS (200pts)

Troops (390pts)
Tactical Squad (220pts)
Meltagun (5pts), Multi-Melta, Combi-Melta
Rhino Dozer Blade

Tactical Squad (170pts)
Flamer, Missile Launcher
----------------------------------------------

What do you guys think? Both for the 2000 Points lists, and the 1000 points list? What changes would you make to it? Thanks a lot for all the comments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One thing that I'm thinking about, for the 2000 points list, would be to drop the plasma TAC squad and add an other sternguard squad. With pedro I would still have 4 scoring units, i'm losing plasma shots, but get some stronger guys to fire against other targets. What do you guys think?

Elites (460pts)
Sternguard Veteran Squad (260pts)
2x Combi-Flamer, 9x Veteran, Space Marine Sergeant

I like the idea of switching the plasma tac to sternguard... if I may refine it.

6 Sternguard w 2 combiflamers 135
Las Plas Razorback 75

6 Sternguard w 2 combiflamers 135
Las Plas Razorback 75

so 410 instead of 260 + 270 = 530 so you then have 129 left over... so perhaps add 3 TH/SS termies or put the Master of the Forge on a Biike so he can be mobile and still fire the Conversion Beamer or 5 scouts w Sniper Rifle and M w camo cloaks that is a cool 100 points and I believe the bike costs 20.