Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 DeathReaper wrote:
He means do not look at the model characteristics page and define what the Strength of Crush means.

if that is what he means, that is fine. I dont care what Strength "means" I just care that it has a value.

40k-noob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
He means do not look at the model characteristics page and define what the Strength of Crush means.

if that is what he means, that is fine. I dont care what Strength "means" I just care that it has a value.

And what can you use that value for?
That's what I mean by describe.

40k-noob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
He means do not look at the model characteristics page and define what the Strength of Crush means.

if that is what he means, that is fine. I dont care what Strength "means" I just care that it has a value.

But you cant use that value for anything as you do not know what strength means...

They could put the meaning of stats in the skimmer section and they would still apply to everything with stats.

 Abandon wrote:
They could put the meaning of stats in the skimmer section and they would still apply to everything with stats.

Right, now look at what he is claiming.

40k-noob wrote:
Page 2 says that about the characteristics of models and units. Crush is neither a model nor a unit.

40k-noob wrote:
Crush is neither a model nor a unit, it is not even a weapon. It is a psychic power, with its own rules for its use.

Those rules state, "the target suffers a hit with a strength equal to the result of the 2D6"
Those are the rules that i am using.

He is using the rules for Strength, but not allowing the definition from Page 2...

I say let him have the UberS12Crush. How much worse than a S10 Railgun,etc is it really? So what if it has a chance to ID some of the toughest creatures(riptide? most certainly) but hey, avoid that unti if your scared......otherwise just kill the damn thing lol

I know DR, read the whole thing. Right there with ya this time

Personal note: I actually agree with you and rigeld2 most of the time. Your just quick to respond and generally I don't say anything unless their is something to add.

Oh and Wolfnid about your sig, everything will live just fine in the hive fleets cultured biomass so I really don't know what everyone's afraid of.

Treat it like a weapon. If I fire a Demolisher (Space Marines Vindicator) and something gives me a +1 S, would you let me take a S11 hit onto your stuff?

Ahh here comes the cheering section...

Well, I have answered your questions.
How about you answer some of mine.

Where in the BRB does it limit the strength of a psychic power from 0-10? If you can show me that page number, section I will gladly say you are right.

40k-noob wrote:
.
Where in the BRB does it limit the strength of a psychic power from 0-10? If you can show me that page number, section I will gladly say you are right.

Where is Str 11 on the wound chart?

40k-noob wrote:Ahh here comes the cheering section...

Well, I have answered your questions.

No, you haven't.

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
He means do not look at the model characteristics page and define what the Strength of Crush means.

if that is what he means, that is fine. I dont care what Strength "means" I just care that it has a value.

And what can you use that value for?
That's what I mean by describe.

Page 50 talks about Weapon Profiles.

BRB wrote:If the weapon has a fixed Strength, i.e. a number between 1 and 10, this is the Strength of Attacks made with that weapon.

If you're about to argue that psychic powers don't follow that requirement because they aren't weapons, don't. If you pretend they aren't weapons they can't ever roll to wound.

 grendel083 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
.
Where in the BRB does it limit the strength of a psychic power from 0-10? If you can show me that page number, section I will gladly say you are right.

Where is Str 11 on the wound chart?

Not needed. You wound automatically on a roll of 11-12


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:Ahh here comes the cheering section...

Well, I have answered your questions.

No, you haven't.

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
He means do not look at the model characteristics page and define what the Strength of Crush means.

if that is what he means, that is fine. I dont care what Strength "means" I just care that it has a value.

And what can you use that value for?
That's what I mean by describe.

Page 50 talks about Weapon Profiles.

BRB wrote:If the weapon has a fixed Strength, i.e. a number between 1 and 10, this is the Strength of Attacks made with that weapon.

If you're about to argue that psychic powers don't follow that requirement because they aren't weapons, don't. If you pretend they aren't weapons they can't ever roll to wound.

I haven't answered your questions? All these posts andd none of them are answers to questions?
Guess this post doesn't count either then.

as for page 50, if you are telling me what I can or can't argue, then there is no point in continuing.

Congrats. You win.

Yes, Crush is obviously a psychic shooting attack. Psychic Shooting Attacks are treated exactly like weapons.

40k-noob wrote:
I haven't answered your questions? All these posts andd none of them are answers to questions?
Guess this post doesn't count either then.

Please quote where you answered what I asked.

as for page 50, if you are telling me what I can or can't argue, then there is no point in continuing.

Congrats. You win.

I didn't say you couldn't argue it, I explained the consequences of doing so.

After reading the crush spell there is no permission there to go above a ten. It tells you specifically what happens when an 11 or 12 is rolled. Trying to say its a str 12 hit is simply untrue. No characteristic is ever allowed above a 10. Just auto wound in the case of a wounds bearing model or auto pen in the case of a vehicle. In either case however you get an additional d6 for the ap value of the shot.

40K-Noob:

Bottom line upfront; you can argue this all day on here if you like but in the real world, say in a friendly game? I would pack up my models on the spot and never play you again for being a rule stretching, loop-hole exploiting, cheater... If you tried to do this during the tournament? I would cite you for cheating and have you removed from the brackets with no refund... you understand full well that you cannot go above strength 10 unless there is a rule that says you can, yet you are choosing to ignore that "Roll 2d6. The target suffers a hit equal to the result" doesnt say it causes instant death, doesnt result in anything but a wound. Now if you do acknowledge that it is a characteristic, which does cause instant death at double strength, you are admitting that the attack has a strength characteristic and either way you are shooting yourself in the foot. so which is it?

Is it a strength 11-12 attack that doesnt cause instant death because its not a characteristic? or is it a charcteristic based attack that cannot go higher than 10 that does cause instance death?

either way, your question has been answered and you have no further arguement

Bit fly off the handle there.

I think he's wrong, I'd call the TO over but it's not cheating to be wrong. I'd be a bit more watchful of what he's doing but not because I think he is cheating but because he may not know the rules or be confused on some of them.
Gamesmanship isn't just knowing the rules it's also playing well and being a good sportsman.

40k-noob, if you are about to enquire about a rule, please read the whole rule beforehand

BRB, Page 422 wrote:Crush is a focussed witchfi.re power with a range of 18". Roll 2D6. The target model suffers a hit with a Strength equal to the result (a score of an I I or l2 wounds automatically or, in the case of a vehicle, causes an automatic penetrating hit) wlth an AP equal to the result of a separate D6 roll.

Bolded relevant bit, although Im pretty sure someone has already submitted this quote.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Bit fly off the handle there.

I think he's wrong, I'd call the TO over but it's not cheating to be wrong. I'd be a bit more watchful of what he's doing but not because I think he is cheating but because he may not know the rules or be confused on some of them.
Gamesmanship isn't just knowing the rules it's also playing well and being a good sportsman.

Not at all...

Its one thing to hide dice rolls, its another thing entirely when someone has been shown the rules, yet demands further proof... its like arguing with an American Tea Partier.
If you have been made aware of the rules, and then choose to play them incorrectly (40K-noob's approch to this makes me feel as though he'll read the correct rules and play them incorrectly) then I have no business playing you. We have rules for a reason and despite faqs and rulings found here that I despise, I adhere to them in my knowledge as best as possible...

I was under the impression gamesmenship and sportmanship were the same thing...

 IHateNids wrote:
40k-noob, if you are about to enquire about a rule, please read the whole rule beforehand

BRB, Page 422 wrote:Crush is a focussed witchfi.re power with a range of 18". Roll 2D6. The target model suffers a hit with a Strength equal to the result (a score of an I I or l2 wounds automatically or, in the case of a vehicle, causes an automatic penetrating hit) wlth an AP equal to the result of a separate D6 roll.

Bolded relevant bit, although Im pretty sure someone has already submitted this quote.

Which has no effect on his argument.
Yes, it wounds automatically. But the wound must have a Strength associated with it, and the Strength is the result on 2d6.
Without the cap in place on page 50 and page 2, that Strength could reach 11 or 12 meaning it would ID many Monstrous Creatures.

 WarlordRob117 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Bit fly off the handle there.

I think he's wrong, I'd call the TO over but it's not cheating to be wrong. I'd be a bit more watchful of what he's doing but not because I think he is cheating but because he may not know the rules or be confused on some of them.
Gamesmanship isn't just knowing the rules it's also playing well and being a good sportsman.

Not at all...

Its one thing to hide dice rolls, its another thing entirely when someone has been shown the rules, yet demands further proof... its like arguing with an American Tea Partier.
If you have been made aware of the rules, and then choose to play them incorrectly (40K-noob's approch to this makes me feel as though he'll read the correct rules and play them incorrectly) then I have no business playing you. We have rules for a reason and despite faqs and rulings found here that I despise, I adhere to them in my knowledge as best as possible...

I was under the impression gamesmenship and sportmanship were the same thing...

Interesting analysis....

So let me gets this straight.

You read page 2 and in the second paragraph where it sets the limits of 0-10 for models and units, not for characteristics themselves but for the characteristics of models and units and that is is supposed to mean it also applies to psychic powers, which clearly are not models nor units.

And I am the one that reads the rules and chooses to play them incorrectly and thus a cheater?


oh and thanks for compliment (I like the Tea Party)

To me as a strick RAW, it looks like there is no way to ID a model with a roll of an 11 or 12, it's just a free wound.

40k-noob wrote:
And I am the one that reads the rules and chooses to play them incorrectly and thus a cheater?

Have an argument against page 50 applying?

rigeld2 wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
40k-noob, if you are about to enquire about a rule, please read the whole rule beforehand

BRB, Page 422 wrote:Crush is a focussed witchfi.re power with a range of 18". Roll 2D6. The target model suffers a hit with a Strength equal to the result (a score of an I I or l2 wounds automatically or, in the case of a vehicle, causes an automatic penetrating hit) wlth an AP equal to the result of a separate D6 roll.

Bolded relevant bit, although Im pretty sure someone has already submitted this quote.

Which has no effect on his argument.
Yes, it wounds automatically. But the wound must have a Strength associated with it, and the Strength is the result on 2d6.
Without the cap in place on page 50 and page 2, that Strength could reach 11 or 12 meaning it would ID many Monstrous Creatures.

And that is why it is important. (not just MC, Destroyer Lords, Warboss on a bike, etc)

The cap on page 2 is for the characteristics of models and units not for anything else.

BRB page 2 wrote:
Warhammer 40,000 uses nine different characteristics to describe the various attributes of the different models. All but one of the characteristics are rated on a scale from 0 to 10. The odd characteristic out is Armour Save (Sv) which can run from 2+ through 0+ to - (for models with no Armour Save).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
And I am the one that reads the rules and chooses to play them incorrectly and thus a cheater?

Have an argument against page 50 applying?

I have two arguments against this:

1. Crush does not have a fixed Strength, it is variable and is determined by the roll of 2D6
2. Crush is not a weapon but a psychic power. As noted by fact that BRB does not lists them in the "Weapons" section of any part of the BRB.

edit: spelling mistakes

Wait, so he is basing his argument on no cap for the S of PSAs?

thats a different kettle of fish then, I misinterpretted his point

Strength on page 50 is very very clear. What is there to debate here?

"If the weapon has a fixed Strength, i.e. a number between 1 and 10, this is the Strength of Attacks made with that weapon."
Crush has a fixed strength as soon as you roll it, 2D6 between 1-10 and for the other two results there is a specific rule for it.

you still havent answered my question...

it either has a strength of 11-12 with no instant death (since as you say it is not a characteristic, and only characteristics get instant according to rules as written), or it is just strength 10 (meaning it is a characteristic and as such causes instant... Im waiting for the answer because either way your arguement is nil and it cannot kill MC's either way...

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
you still havent answered my question...

it either has a strength of 11-12 with no instant death (since as you say it is not a characteristic, and only characteristics get instant according to rules as written), or it is just strength 10 (meaning it is a characteristic and as such causes instant... Im waiting for the answer because either way your arguement is nil and it cannot kill MC's either way...

I never said it didn't have a Characteristic. I even agreed with Rig that Strength is a Characteristic.

I disagree that the limit of 0-10 applies to psychic powers.

Are psychic powers weapons/ are they treated as weapons?
Do they count as firing an assault weapon unless otherwise stated?

It has too. Crush is a PSA, and SAs follow those rules...

/Thread