Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Are psychic powers weapons/ are they treated as weapons?
Do they count as firing an assault weapon unless otherwise stated?

No, they are not weapons. They are in their own section outside of the Weapons section and not listed in any part of the book where weapons are also listed (i.e. summary)

Are they treated as weapons? If so I have not seen where it says that in the BRB.
If you have a page/section I can look at, and if it says that, I will admit I am wrong.

Only thing I have seen is that using a Witchfire counts as firing an Assault Weapon which is to say you can Assault in the Assault phase after using a Witchfire power.


edit: spelling

The rules on page 68 for witchfire.

 IHateNids wrote:
It has too. Crush is a PSA, and SAs follow those rules...

/Thread

Where in the Shooting rules or in the PSA rules does it limit the range of Characteristics from 0-10?

so are we just ignoring that it says Assault WEAPON? last I checked, weapons can never be higher than strength 10

Oh! So'll you'll let me make an S11 pumped Demolisher shot against you? Thank you kindly.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
The rules on page 68 for witchfire.

That does not define a Psychic Power as a weapon nor does it say that they are treated as weapons.

It says that manifesting a witchfire counts as firing an assault weapon....

That means that the action of manifesting a witchifire is the counted as the same as the action of firing an assault weapon. Which would let you assault after manifesting one.
That is very different from saying that witchfires are "treated as assault weapons" or that a witchfire is an weapon


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BolterUnlimited wrote:
Oh! So'll you'll let me make an S11 pumped Demolisher shot against you? Thank you kindly.

You are welcome

BRB, Page 69, Paragraph 2: Note that, as witchfire is a Shooting attack

the bold part makes it follow shooting rules

 IHateNids wrote:
BRB, Page 69, Paragraph 2: Note that, as witchfire is a Shooting attack

the bold part makes it follow shooting rules

Yes but where in the Shooting Rules does it limit the characteristics to 0-10?

The bit that people have bneen quoting at you all thread...

40k-noob wrote:


Yes but where in the Shooting Rules does it limit the characteristics to 0-10?

Dont mind Noob, IHateNids...

he cant see the forest for the trees

40k-noob wrote:
Only thing I have seen is that using a Witchfire counts as firing an Assault Weapon which is to say you can Assault in the Assault phase after using a Witchfire power.

"counts as" must mean the same as "is". Therefore using a Witchfire is shooting an Assault Weapon.
Weapons are limited in STR from 1-10.

rigeld2:
You're missing part of that rule.

Manifesting witchfire counts as firing an Assault Weapon (unless otherwise noted).

It is most certainly otherwise noted and therefore not an Assault Weapon. It is still a shooting attack. In the rules for Crush we have a value for it's Strength characteristic; roll 2D6. Obviously I can get an 11 or 12. Fortunately they gave us a way to handle that without referring to the Strength/Toughness chart: they auto wound/pen.

So what do we have? We have a psychic power, that doesn't qualify as an Assault Weapon (due to being otherwise noted) however we are told on pg 69 exactly how to use it: roll to hit, saves can be taken in the same way as for any other shooting attack.. We also know how to shoot it because it is to be handled in the shooting phase using the shooting rules. Note that nothing within the shooting rules limits the weapons strength; which is meaningless anyway as Crush told us explicitly what to do for 11/12.

The Strength characteristic limiter on pg 2/3 doesn't apply as that entire section repeatedly discusses only a Model's 9 characteristics. Pg 14 highlights that strength in a weapons profile is not the same as the strength of the model further cementing the distinction (which doesn't matter anyway). Pg 50's limiter doesn't apply as, although it states "ie. 1 to 10)" Crush is not a "weapon" but rather a psychic shooting attack which did not meet the qualifications to be an assault weapon. The way we can shoot it is defined by the rest of the paragraphs on pg 69 and the normal shooting phase rules, so we don't even have to refer to most of the weapon rules/limitations anyway.

ID just requires Strength (doesn't qualify type: model characteristic, weapon profile, whatever) to be double toughness.

All of this means is that yes, you can ID a tyranid MC.

clively wrote:
rigeld2:
You're missing part of that rule.

Manifesting witchfire counts as firing an Assault Weapon (unless otherwise noted).

It is most certainly otherwise noted. In the rules for Crush we have a definition for it's Strength characteristic; roll 2D6. Obviously I can get an 11 or 12. Fortunately they gave us a way to handle that without referring to the Strength/Toughness chart: they auto wound/pen.

So what do we have? We have a psychic power, that doesn't qualify as an Assault Weapon however we are told on pg 69 exactly how to use it: roll to hit, saves can be taken in the same way as for any other shooting attack..

All of this means is that yes, you can ID a tyranid MC.

1. It is still an assault weapon. Nothing in this makes this power count as anything else. You need to show where it was stated.
2. There are many withfire powers that don't have a defined S characteristic, does that make them not PSA's? Jaws, ecstatic seizures etc etc. They still count as an assault weapon and allow you shoot and assault.
3. Where in the rules for crush did it say that the auto-inflicted wound has a strength value instead of just being an auto-inflict wound?
4. If your strength is above ten where is the rules that allow that?

Otherwise this entire thread is over.

1/2 I need to get my full rule book (not the mini one on my desk) later and I'll come back to those.

3. Implied by the wording of the rule. Every other reference in the book where a roll-to-wound roll is performed makes a reference to S. If Crush does not have a Strength then it can't work at all. So, we have to assume, based on the wording, that the Strength is 2D6. Again, to get past the limitations of the S vs T roll we are explicitly told 11/12 auto wounds / pens so we don't have to roll on any of those charts.

Therefore, those numbers are valid Strength values.

4. Strength of Crush is defined in the rule for Crush: 2D6. I don't need a further rule allowing it. Specific > General. In this case, Crush specifically allows for it and even goes so far as to give an additional rule on how to handle it.

I know you like claiming "thread over" but it's not.

There isn't a roll to wound here, not for 11 and 12 they are treated differently. This is just the roll to see the strength, strength is defined as 1-10, strength still requires a roll to wound. It doesn't need to have a value for 11 or 12, it just wounds.

"The target model suffers a hit with a Strength equal to the result (a score of an I I or l2 wounds automatically or, in the case of a vehicle, causes an automatic penetrating hit) "

The score of 11 or 12 is dealt with differently to 1-10, these cannot be strength values as you don't roll to wound using them nor are they valid values for strength.

Hehehe I get it! He's just trolling guys, relax. There is no way he actually believes that that one psychic power is somehow exempt from even the basis of how the game is played!

 liturgies of blood wrote:
There isn't a roll to wound here. This is just the roll to see the strength, strength is defined as 1-10, strength still requires a roll to wound. It doesn't need to have a strength value for 11 or 12, it just wounds.

"The target model suffers a hit with a Strength equal to the result (a score of an I I or l2 wounds automatically or, in the case of a vehicle, causes an automatic penetrating hit) "

The score of 11 or 12 is dealt with differently to 1-10, these cannot be strength values as you don't roll to wound using them nor are they valid values for strength.

I agree, up until the part where you state they aren't valid values for strength. Crush says they are and then goes further to tell us how to handle it to get past the S v T chart. The rule doesn't say "treat an 11 or 12 as S10", nor does it say 11/12 is only valid for the purpose of auto wounding. It is a very specific rule overriding the general ones.

It doesn't have to, you get an auto wound instead of any strength value.

It doesn't override the general restriction on S being 1-10.

Crush doesn't say that 11 or 12 are strength, it says that for a score of 11 or 12 do the following which is not a roll to wound.

If we look at Smash, it explicitly says to double the model's strength to a maximum of 10.

In that particular case we have a special rule that specifically changes how strength is set on the model. Then it goes on to specifically state that it has a maximum value of 10.

For some reason, the designers felt that they needed to say that which gives us precedence.

I think the reason goes back to pg 32. "Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule."

In a lot of these threads it comes down to specific vs general. Even if I agreed that Crush was classified as an assault weapon and that the "i.e." statement on page 50 limits weapons to a S of 1 to 10; that is still a general rule. Which, for the sake of narrowing the discussion, I will concede those points.

Crush itself is a special rule that "breaks" one of the main game rules. It is quite specific on how S is calculated. I believe credence is given to my position because it doesn't stop there. Instead, unlike Smash which reinstates the limiter, Crush is also specific about how to resolve the rule quandry for weapons with a S above 10. The only way I can take this is that both RAW and RAI is that Crush can be S11/12 as they handled any game breaking mechanics nicely.


---@Windir83: I am not trolling. I'm simply having a discussion based upon my reading of the rules, which liturgies is doing as well. It's polite and we currently simply disagree. Actually, I disagree with 40k-noob on several of his points as well, but that's not currently germain to the topic and would simply confuse things further. I have a lot of respect for both liturgies and 40k-noob and I really don't think I'm wasting anyone's time by going a bit further on the topic.

clively wrote:
rigeld2:
You're missing part of that rule.

Manifesting witchfire counts as firing an Assault Weapon (unless otherwise noted).

It is most certainly otherwise noted

Citation required.

Just read through it all and it seems simple enough...

Roll 2d6 to determine strength, if it's a 1-10, that represents the strength of the attack when you come to wound next...

On an 11-12, you wound automatically and don't have to roll to wound, thus avoiding the shameful roll of a 1 which I'm sure
We've all had

Thats how I'd take it, that way it keeps with the 0-10 characteristics thing and the rules of the game. It even has the 'failsafe' for if you do breach the str 10 roll on 2d6 roll of 11 or 12.

If not then that power alone is unrestricted by the rules everything else are governed by, which means its CHAOS!!!!

rigeld2 wrote:

clively wrote:
rigeld2:
You're missing part of that rule.

Manifesting witchfire counts as firing an Assault Weapon (unless otherwise noted).

It is most certainly otherwise noted

Citation required.

Unnecessary, for the sake of simplicity I conceded that point. Please review my post 3 above this one for more info.

Short answer to a long discussion is MC's are immune to ID anyway

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
Short answer to a long discussion is MC's are immune to ID anyway

Citation?

clively wrote:
If we look at Smash, it explicitly says to double the model's strength to a maximum of 10.

Because that is the maximum value Strength can have.

......For some reason, the designers felt that they needed to say that which gives us precedence.

RAI argument. They remind you of the rules repeatedly in the rules and codices, you can read into it or accept that they just do.

Crush itself is a special rule that "breaks" one of the main game rules. It is quite specific on how S is calculated. I believe credence is given to my position because it doesn't stop there. Instead, unlike Smash which reinstates the limiter, Crush is also specific about how to resolve the rule quandry for weapons with a S above 10. The only way I can take this is that both RAW and RAI is that Crush can be S11/12 as they handled any game breaking mechanics nicely.

This is not true, it doesn't tell you how to resolve strength greater than 10, it just says that if you roll 11 or 12 do something else.
This is different to breaking the strength rules. To have a specific is greater than general conflict you'd need the crush rule to actually say it's strength 11 and resolve it as such.

clively wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
Short answer to a long discussion is MC's are immune to ID anyway

Citation?

Thinking last ed. statement revoked (only played 1-2 games in 6th, just moved to middle of nowhere) my apologies

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 liturgies of blood wrote:

......For some reason, the designers felt that they needed to say that which gives us precedence.

RAI argument. They remind you of the rules repeatedly in the rules and codices, you can read into it or accept that they just do.

Actually, I gave the RAW reason for it. pg 32, second paragraph, 1st sentence. My "For some reason," lead in was a poor choice of words.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

This is not true, it doesn't tell you how to resolve strength greater than 10, it just says that if you roll 11 or 12 do something else.
This is different to breaking the strength rules. To have a specific is greater than general conflict you'd need the crush rule to actually say it's strength 11 and resolve it as such.

I believe that if we can't agree that "Strength equal to the result" means that Strength is equal to the result of the 2D6 roll, then there's not much further we can go. The remainder of the sentence, although important because it tells us how to resolve it, doesn't change that they are using the terms Strength, Result and Score interchangably. All of which are equal to the 2D6 roll.

We simply have to start somewhere. Would you agree that, per the Crush rules and before applying any other rule, Strength = 2D6?

Strength is equal to the result(if it's 11 or 12 strenght isn't eqaul to the result as that isn't what the bit in the brackets say happens).

Only if it is between 1 and 10 or has specific rules to describe strength 10+. What is in those brackets are a subordinate clause, it is important to how you read the previous clause.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Strength is equal to the result

Okay.

liturgies of blood wrote:*snip* What is in those brackets are a subordinate clause, it is important to how you read the previous clause. *snip*

Absolutely agreed.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
(if it's 11 or 12 strenght isn't eqaul to the result as that isn't what the bit in the brackets say happens).

Now, just taking the text:
"a score of an 11 or 12 wounds automatically or, in the case of a vehicle, causes an automatic penetrating hit"

Which part says to reduce Strength to 10?

Which part says to resolve it at strength 11?
The bit that says automatically inflict a wound is the part that disregards the strength roll.