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My money's on Megarachnids though, almost unheard of, don't have a model (but starship troopers "bugs" would fit the bill ), ruling out Slann and Jokaero, he said it wasn't Slaugth, and Hrud seem too uniform imho. As for the Old Ones, would be impossible to do a good dex for a race that can just Create an entire race (or two) of beings to fight for them.

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
As for the Old Ones, would be impossible to do a good dex for a race that can just Create an entire race (or two)

Or three...

 disty wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
As for the Old Ones, would be impossible to do a good dex for a race that can just Create an entire race (or two)

Or three...

It would be a truly amazing dex... like tervigons but with armies instead of 2d6 units...

I wanty Hruds, Space Skavens FTW !
because if it's skaven, you can include as many obscure and easy to misinterpret rules as you want

TanKoL wrote:
I wanty Hruds, Space Skavens FTW !
because if it's skaven, you can include as many obscure and easy to misinterpret rules as you want

Skaven are cowardly, Hruds seem more like ogres imho. big, ugly and dangerous Also, skaven are steampunk-techies whereas Hrud don't seem to have any tech at all (at least 10,000 years ago...)

TanKoL wrote:
I wanty Hruds, Space Skavens FTW !
because if it's skaven, you can include as many obscure and easy to misinterpret rules as you want

Haha! On reflection that's probably closer to the truth than I'd like to admit!

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
Skaven are cowardly, Hruds seem more like ogres imho. big, ugly and dangerous Also, skaven are steampunk-techies whereas Hrud don't seem to have any tech at all (at least 10,000 years ago...)

Hrud are stated to be quite diminutive and cowardly, originally thought of as "Space Skaven", although GW tried to distance the two later on. According to GW fluff their technology is based around using junk although the Fusil rifles are a piece of tech the imperium can't recreate and covert them greatly for their quality.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Is it the Hrud? A Hrud force worshipping Malal? Is it true that the Hrudworship a C'tan (heard that somewhere)?

will it include these? http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Umbra_in_battle.jpg

Sorry Alex, somehow I completely missed your post!

It is indeed the Hrud. They don't technically worship Malal, at least not the majority of them, but there is a pact. There is a Cult dedicated to Qah, which is intrinsic to Malal, but they're more puppet like than anything.

The Umbra are most certainly an option! They come in two flavours: Shades and Shadows.

Edit: Ninja'd! Partial credit for grapeshot guessing?

PrinceOfMadness wrote:
Edit: Ninja'd! Partial credit for grapeshot guessing?

Haha, everyone gets credit for their sterling work!

Now... If only I could figure out how to change the thread's title...

Edit the first post

You can change the subject there.

Hah, found it, thanks! Not sure why but I was expecting something a little more complicated there.

Ok, we should start with the basic troops. Are they close combat or shooty? Elite or hoarde? Armour save? Ward save?

From what i know about Hrud, this is my idea.

Combat-y, with upgrade to a gun from a few points.
They would be a bit of both, think dark eldar points. about 9 pts. Bad armour save, relying on cover. maybe an army-wide 6+ ward and army wide stealth.

I would think they should be BS 3, because although its not shown much BS4 is superhuman, for very good creatures.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Ok, we should start with the basic troops. Are they close combat or shooty? Elite or hoarde? Armour save? Ward save?

From what i know about Hrud, this is my idea.

Combat-y, with upgrade to a gun from a few points.
They would be a bit of both, think dark eldar points. about 9 pts. Bad armour save, relying on cover. maybe an army-wide 6+ ward and army wide stealth.

I would think they should be BS 3, because although its not shown much BS4 is superhuman, for very good creatures.

Hah, actually quite scary! I've already fleshed out all the units and points cost. The "basic troops" so to speak, which I've called Hrud Animals, have the following profile:

WS: 3
BS: 3
S: 2
T: 2
W: 1
I: 3
A: 1
Ld: 8
Sv: 6++ (inv)

Points: 5

Unit size: 10-30

There's a few special rules they have including stealth.

So we agree on quite a few points!

Although I've kept them pretty squishy with a pretty piss poor gun (Scavanged firearms: Range 12" Str3 AP - Assault)
Their strength lies in cheap fodder, with a few nasty surprises hidden amongst their ranks....

I remember reading a bit about the Hrud from heresy background (the Iron Warriors killed a load of them just before finding out that Olympia had rebelled if I recall).

I will be interested to see what comes of this.

maybe make a packmaster-esque squad leader who pushes them forward? With, say a "poking stick(ccw)"? and id say give the guns 24" range to at least be up to standard with most other codex's base firearms (cant think of one for less than 24 actually, unless you count cultists but if it is an upgrade maybe make it 24"?) Any ideas for HQ/Elite based units? those would be interesting to see

A phrase about great minds comes to me, but for the life of me can't remember it

They are....very weak. While i dont see the full rules they look very weak to fire. Im also not sure what they want to do, tarpitting with numbers wont work because they arn't fearless, they will be run down. God knows they arn't shooters or will be good in CC.

I think they NEED a delivery of some sort, inflatrate sounds like a good place to start. Even being that weak a hoarde of 30 showing up close to your army in area terrain would be a bit worrying. Also i have an idea to make them a bit of a threat in CC. To represent there entropic field any enemy model in base contact with a Hrud at the end of an assult phase must roll a dice, on a 6 they take a wound. And maybe something like a 5+ poisen in CC, this would take them up to say 6 points. Because there is still the MASSIVE problem of losing combat and being run down.

Eldar shuriken catapults and avenger catapults both have less than 24" range (12" and 18" respectively) and are basic firearms (hopefully this will be remedied in their next codex).

Also I believe shootas are 18" assault 2.

How about keeping hrud weapons short ranged (12-18") but let them run and shoot as in the fluff Hrud are supposed to be super agile aren't they?

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
maybe make a packmaster-esque squad leader who pushes them forward? With, say a "poking stick(ccw)"? and id say give the guns 24" range to at least be up to standard with most other codex's base firearms (cant think of one for less than 24 actually, unless you count cultists but if it is an upgrade maybe make it 24"?) Any ideas for HQ/Elite based units? those would be interesting to see

I'm not altering any of the units yet; I'll drop it and see how it's received. I've got so much work on my hands as it is (currently day two at work, not actually doing any work, just revising the draft!)

I've tried to focus on synergy within the 'dex itself so not everything will be obvious until it's released. The main strength of the Animal unit is they're the only way to purchase "Chanters" (up to three per squad) who can deal some serious damage. Also for every 10 animals one can be equipped with a pseudo-powerweapon/fist.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
A phrase about great minds comes to me, but for the life of me can't remember it

They are....very weak. While i dont see the full rules they look very weak to fire. Im also not sure what they want to do, tarpitting with numbers wont work because they arn't fearless, they will be run down. God knows they arn't shooters or will be good in CC.

I think they NEED a delivery of some sort, inflatrate sounds like a good place to start. Even being that weak a hoarde of 30 showing up close to your army in area terrain would be a bit worrying. Also i have an idea to make them a bit of a threat in CC. To represent there entropic field any enemy model in base contact with a Hrud at the end of an assult phase must roll a dice, on a 6 they take a wound. And maybe something like a 5+ poisen in CC, this would take them up to say 6 points. Because there is still the MASSIVE problem of losing combat and being run down.

Haha, great minds indeed
They're a pretty basic unit, and fairly cheap! In isolation I can see why people would worry but I think once you see the mechanics behind the Chanters you'll see they're capable of robust survivability combined with becoming a slightly worrying sight for your opponent if they come too close. There's very few entries in 'dex that are amazing in isolation, I wanted to create something a bit more nuanced, not just point and click.

rohansoldier wrote:How about keeping hrud weapons short ranged (12-18") but let them run and shoot as in the fluff Hrud are supposed to be super agile aren't they?

I think they're fairly agile yes. The 12" was intended to reflect their ability to see during the day coupled with their weak frame; essentially just carrying cut down guns and pistols. There is also army wide night-fighting.

*Edited for spelling and clarity of thought, someone shouted "HOME TIME." and I immediately hit post and ran for the exit *

Your making hrud!? awesome! I cant wait to playtest them!

Hi guys,

Just thought I'd post a quick update: about 70% of the 'dex's revision is complete. Still loads to do and I'm probably behind where I wanted to be but luckily I have the next two days off work so time to push on!

KOVAV wrote:
Your making hrud!? awesome! I cant wait to playtest them!

Excellent! It's going to need a lot of play testing; I can roll dice by myself all I want, it doesn't come close to the level of testing it really requires.

I'll send some PM's out to people involved in this thread as I require some names for Imperial guard commanders and the such like! I can't see many usable usernames so if people are happy to give me their real (possibly partial) names I'll incorporate them somehow.

KOVAV... Nah... Vavok... That works Congratulations, you're now (backwards) a famous weapon!

 disty wrote:
Excellent! It's going to need a lot of play testing; I can roll dice by myself all I want, it doesn't come close to the level of testing it really requires.

I'll send some PM's out to people involved in this thread as I require some names for Imperial guard commanders and the such like! I can't see many usable usernames so if people are happy to give me their real (possibly partial) names I'll incorporate them somehow.

KOVAV... Nah... Vavok... That works Congratulations, you're now (backwards) a famous weapon!

DIBS!!! Sargent major Alex Walace ready to push his armoured collum into the Hrud infestation

Also i'd love to see a sneek preview of the Umbra, im wondering where they will fit into the FoC. They could easily be a HQ like the avatar, or an elite choice like dreadnoughts or a heavy like a trygon. I take it they are going to be monsterous creatures right? They look pritty monsterous in the picture

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:


DIBS!!! Sargent major Alex Walace ready to push his armoured collum into the Hrud infestation

Also i'd love to see a sneek preview of the Umbra, im wondering where they will fit into the FoC. They could easily be a HQ like the avatar, or an elite choice like dreadnoughts or a heavy like a trygon. I take it they are going to be monsterous creatures right? They look pritty monsterous in the picture

Haha, sadly there's no such heroics up for grabs! There's either the story of an arrogant Commander who pays the price for his pride or a quote from a rather unsympathetic Commissar

If neither of those sound to your liking I can hold Commander Walace in reserve until something else comes up? Ohhh, now I think about it I've not added a name for the Commander of the Mordant Acid dogs!

As for your request, well they've been done so I don't see why not (C&P'd directly from word so formatting may bit a little ropey!):

Shade of Qah

When the gods of chaos collectively pounced upon the isolated Qah they tore through the old god like a pack of primitive beasts, shredding its carcass into tiny shards and scattering the remains like flotsam throughout the warp. Over millennia these remnants garnered stray warp energy, allowing the fragments to coalesce together. Eventually these pieces reach a critical mass, manifesting a nascent sentience and rediscovered purpose. Once they’ve attained a certain size they can be sensed by His Voice and drawn through the Warp and into the Materium.

Shades of Qah are as bafflingly beautiful to behold as they are horrifically unnerving to fight. Perfect spheres of glossy, polished, pitch black glass that float a few feet above the ground, they move without sound. Physically they display the properties of a viscous fluid, able to manipulate and compress its form into any shape it desires whilst maintaining the ability to solidify instantaneously if required. This ability allows them to flow across the battlefield, hindered by neither the densest of natural barriers nor nigh impregnable fortifications.

Its objectives are survival and reunification and to this end the Shades hide themselves in the deepest recesses of the warren, commonly lining the walls of the Sanctum, giving the appearance of a shiny tar like fluid. Despite this mandate the shades are often found on the battlefield. A Chaos god’s lust for conflict doesn’t diminish with death and it’s this desire that drives them to into the maelstrom of battle, comforted by the knowledge that if the Hrud survive and propagate, more will be summoned.

Those survivors who’ve fought the Umbra before recognise the need to engage from afar; without a method of ranged attack they’re more easily dealt with at distance. Their bizarre ability to absorb or quell direct energy weapons provides such an effective counter measure that weapon saturation is advised; generals who don’t prioritise this foe often pay the ultimate price for they can close a gap with frightening speed and are a lethal adversity in close quarters.
When toe to toe with its opponents the shade manipulates and solidifies its form into hooks, jagged hands and wrapping tentacles, ferociously targeting exposed flesh and chinks in armour. These attacks are delivered from any part of its spherical body, appearing without indication or predictable direction, making it impossible to gain an advantage on the faceless mass. Only the highest of skilled combatants can expect to rely upon their martial prowess to best a shade; for everyone else there’s only hope their armour holds out against the hail of disorientating blows.

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
6 0 5 5 3 6 4 10 4++


“Umbra” is an umbrella term for both Shades and Shadows of Qah. Any reference to Umbra refers to both units.

• Rending • Ignorance is bliss (Page..)
• Fleet • Fearless
• Counter-attack
• A Taste of Home – Any psyker within 12” of an Umbra takes psychic tests on 3D6. Any wound taken from Perils of the Warp attacks within 12” of an Umbra model also restores a wound to the Umbra unit. If more than one Umbra unit is present the Hrud player may freely decide which model gains the wound.

Oh I should add, these guys are infantry in the Elites section and currently at 150 points for a squad of three; no options. I've been toying increasing rending up to full blown ignores armour but such a decision would have to be made later after some play testing! (Shadows are in Heavy and most certainly are Monstrous creatures.)

Love the fluff for them. The stat-line is good but im feeling they need something...more. Something to give them an edge in combat, other-wise things like this tend to suffer from Ogryn syndrome. A few options would be shrouded to get it to combat in one piece, also means having a big unit would work well. Maybe a tyranid like lash whip (everything in base contact goes to I 1) would make it a good deathstar unit. On that note can Hrud IC join the shades?

Also Loving the Taste of Home ability, really characterful and helpful for a army with little psy-defence. This ability wont come into play however till at least turn 2-3, i was thinking maybe you could make them jump troops to make them fast outriders to the Hrud force, drawing fire onto there 4++.

Really good, you've got me excited for the full version

They seem a bit OP to me. Especially if you add "ignores armour saves". Do they need to be INT 6? Or STR 5? Or WS 6? To me, a shapeshifting blob like that would be more "a buckload of weak attacks" than any of that. Then again I don't know the fluff behind the Hrud except to say fuckyesspaceskavenitsaboutbloodytime!

Like the guy above me, I reckon ToH is a great rule.

Post more, fandexes are one of the few things I still enjoy in this hobby. But seriously, why not upgrade to 6th edition before you release?

Well, the umbra are shardes of a god. So, the closest comparisons will be the C'tan shardes and the avatar of Khain, care to look at there profiles? Now look at these, do they still look OP? By that standard they should be kicking at least WS 8 and S6 T7. Also, i dont think they will get ignore armour, they dont need it. rending is enough, it also makes them kickass against vehicals, i dont know if this was intended. Rolling a 6 means 11+d3, easily penning most back armour, not a bad thing, just pointing it out.

So, yeah the stats are justified. I just dont know where he will start with the points, most homebrew units have a starting point then add points for extra stuff. I can't imagin anything close to these but i'd be imagining around 60 pts each.

AlexisAwsome,
You suggest they need something "more".

They have an ability "ignorance is bliss" which we are ignorant of the effect off. They might already have "more"!

Disty,

I love the idea, and am quite excited! I have allways liked the Hrud stuff, I hadn't heard of those Umbra, but they are also very, very cool.

Will they get some sort of unit that blows itself up? I allways felt that kamakazis were sort of missing from 40k.

Woah! Loads of action

Right I'll multiquote and go through some of the points.

ALEXisAWESOME wrote:Love the fluff for them. The stat-line is good but im feeling they need something...more. Something to give them an edge in combat, other-wise things like this tend to suffer from Ogryn syndrome. A few options would be shrouded to get it to combat in one piece, also means having a big unit would work well. Maybe a tyranid like lash whip (everything in base contact goes to I 1) would make it a good deathstar unit. On that note can Hrud IC join the shades?

Also Loving the Taste of Home ability, really characterful and helpful for a army with little psy-defence. This ability wont come into play however till at least turn 2-3, i was thinking maybe you could make them jump troops to make them fast outriders to the Hrud force, drawing fire onto there 4++.

Really good, you've got me excited for the full version

It's a difficult one to gauge; I wanted them to be devastating in combat, mincing though everything but the most dedicated of assault troops. However if I combined this with the ability to easily get there in a flash then I'd feel they'd be a little unbalanced, there should be certain units you'd look at and think "I don't fancy my chances alone, best back them up". Keep these ideas though and if they fail abysmally in play testing they'll be bumped up

Also there's no reason why IC's can't join, although only one Hrud IC has fleet.

Dakkamite wrote:They seem a bit OP to me. Especially if you add "ignores armour saves". Do they need to be INT 6? Or STR 5? Or WS 6? To me, a shapeshifting blob like that would be more "a buckload of weak attacks" than any of that. Then again I don't know the fluff behind the Hrud except to say fuckyesspaceskavenitsaboutbloodytime!

Like the guy above me, I reckon ToH is a great rule.

Post more, fandexes are one of the few things I still enjoy in this hobby. But seriously, why not upgrade to 6th edition before you release?

Haha, underpowered and OP, I actually find this quite reassuring! I wanted them to be a bit OP for their points in combat but getting there was an intentional problem, so I'm going to take this as a promising sign. The WS6 I6 is to represent how difficult they are to fight; you throw a punch, it moves the goal and clips you round the ear for good measure. STR5 because I felt it reflects a powerful entity but not monsterously powerful (marines STR4; Lictor STR6).

Haha, well I'll be the first to say the fluff is bastardised in places; the (my) Hrud in general aren't anything like the Skaven, more of an Ant colony (They also breed giant ants, but more on that later..). The Skaven element definitely comes into play with the Gifted sub cult, the rest of the warren gets on rather amiably (sorry!)

As for why I haven't updated it, well if anyone wanted to play it with 5e they can! Plus, I know many of you are thinking this whole two week thing is just me being a bit lazy but the current dex stands at (not including a few filler stories): 111 pages, 43,877 words (yes I got carried away). Hopefully I'll have a bit more time when it's released to take a step back, gain feedback and then tweak it all, bringing it in line.

Dast wrote:AlexisAwsome,
You suggest they need something "more".

They have an ability "ignorance is bliss" which we are ignorant of the effect off. They might already have "more"!

Disty,

I love the idea, and am quite excited! I have allways liked the Hrud stuff, I hadn't heard of those Umbra, but they are also very, very cool.

Will they get some sort of unit that blows itself up? I allways felt that kamakazis were sort of missing from 40k.

Ah yes, Ignorance is Bliss! That's in the Shadows entry (So both of their entries didn't spill over a page):

•Ignorance is bliss – The Umbra treats all area terrain as open ground. They may also move directly though impassable terrain but may not end their movement phase inside of it.

Haha, the blow-yourself-up unit is one of my considerations for a 6e slot, although making it work effectively could prove troublesome...

ALEXisAWESOME wrote:Well, the umbra are shardes of a god. So, the closest comparisons will be the C'tan shardes and the avatar of Khain, care to look at there profiles? Now look at these, do they still look OP? By that standard they should be kicking at least WS 8 and S6 T7. Also, i dont think they will get ignore armour, they dont need it. rending is enough, it also makes them kickass against vehicals, i dont know if this was intended. Rolling a 6 means 11+d3, easily penning most back armour, not a bad thing, just pointing it out.

So, yeah the stats are justified. I just dont know where he will start with the points, most homebrew units have a starting point then add points for extra stuff. I can't imagin anything close to these but i'd be imagining around 60 pts each.

Str 5 rending was indeed intentionally to help with vehicles. As for the increased stats, WS8 doesn't do an awful lot in terms of mechanics unless paired against other ultra high WS models, STR6 and T7 encroaches into the Shadows territory! The points cost was in the previous post; 150 for three, no more, no less, no addons *hides from sight*

As a side note just wanted to thank you all for your input so far, looking forward to everyone getting their teeth into it!

 disty wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Ok, we should start with the basic troops. Are they close combat or shooty? Elite or hoarde? Armour save? Ward save?

From what i know about Hrud, this is my idea.

Combat-y, with upgrade to a gun from a few points.
They would be a bit of both, think dark eldar points. about 9 pts. Bad armour save, relying on cover. maybe an army-wide 6+ ward and army wide stealth.

I would think they should be BS 3, because although its not shown much BS4 is superhuman, for very good creatures.

Hah, actually quite scary! I've already fleshed out all the units and points cost. The "basic troops" so to speak, which I've called Hrud Animals, have the following profile:
HRUD/Gretchin
WS: 3/2
BS: 3/3
S: 2/2
T: 2/2
W: 1/1
I: 3/2
A: 1/1
Ld: 8/5
Sv: 6++ (inv)/-

Points: 5

Unit size: 10-30

There's a few special rules they have including stealth.

So we agree on quite a few points!

Although I've kept them pretty squishy with a pretty piss poor gun (Scavanged firearms: Range 12" Str3 AP - Assault)
Their strength lies in cheap fodder, with a few nasty surprises hidden amongst their ranks....

"Assault": make it assault 2. then it'd be virtually the same as a shotgun. + read a story featuring the Hrud, it claimed (vague-ish) that the Hrud had basic rifles that fired many rounds. by being assault - or assault 1 it is worse than s shotgun (by 1 shot) it'd make your Hrud basic infantry more worthwhile to actually field them. kind of a cheap "perk" if you take them over some other more elite/expensively equipped units. the way they are with that example profile looks like a grot with slightly better weapons and profile and 2pts more in cost for basic infantry with an INv save at 5 points per basic trooper seems too cheap in points. STR/T 2 isn't going to do much either. at STR 3 ranged 12" AP- Assault 1 also means they probably wont actually shoot anything maybe replace "rifle" on these infantry with close combat weapons and a pistol or increase range to 18" and make it assault 2, keeping it Str 3. just an idea.

 Orkimedes1000 wrote:

HRUD/Gretchin/Guardsman
WS: 3/2/3
BS: 3/3/3
S: 2/2/3
T: 2/2/3
W: 1/1/1
I: 3/2/3
A: 1/1/1
Ld: 8/5/7
Sv: 6++/-/5+
Pts: 5/3/5

Unit size: 10-30


"Assault": make it assault 2. then it'd be virtually the same as a shotgun. + read a story featuring the Hrud, it claimed (vague-ish) that the Hrud had basic rifles that fired many rounds. by being assault - or assault 1 it is worse than s shotgun (by 1 shot) it'd make your Hrud basic infantry more worthwhile to actually field them. kind of a cheap "perk" if you take them over some other more elite/expensively equipped units. the way they are with that example profile looks like a grot with slightly better weapons and profile and 2pts more in cost for basic infantry with an INv save at 5 points per basic trooper seems too cheap in points. STR/T 2 isn't going to do much either. at STR 3 ranged 12" AP- Assault 1 also means they probably wont actually shoot anything maybe replace "rifle" on these infantry with close combat weapons and a pistol or increase range to 18" and make it assault 2, keeping it Str 3. just an idea.

Hi Orkimedes, thanks for posting! I'm not quite sure what you're suggesting, are they too cheap in their current form or just a bit useless? I could improve them and then indeed they'd come with a larger price tag, but I ideally see them as cheap, rubbish and somewhat resilient. Their options however can make them a very flexible and deadly unit, as well as a force multiplier, in the hands of a competent commander.

It should be noted that I'm after a certain uniqueness in the stat line; I'd rather they had a different feel to other core troops. I've added a Guardsman to your example as way of comparison, I think I've priced them right about 5pts but we shall see; come the 7th I hope it all becomes apparent

Personally, I think 5pts for that statline is fair, if not overcosted when compared to the guardsman.

However, if the gun is S3 R12 A1 (have I read that quote right?) then the unit should be cheaper or the gun improved.

I'd suggest either 4pts per model, or perhaps as Orkimedes said make it a pistol, and give them the option of a CCW for +1 points?

Edit: While I think a 6++ is a great way to differential your crappy basic troops from that of other sides, I don't know if it makes sense particularly. I'd be more inclined to give 6+ FNP unless these creatures have like a forcefield or daemonic influence or some such thing that would grant inv saves.

vovak! cool. so, are these shards of a god Shaggoth like?