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 Polonius wrote:
Part of me is willing to cut Mantic a little slack, given how dramatically the "new stuff" pile in the KoW KS grew over time. It went from a handful of new units to a couple of armies worth. I know its just going to take time, especially when they only had concept sketches for most of the stuff.

A different part is watching the calender, and noting a dearth of KoW updates with Greens, sprues, etc of the new units. For stuff that's supposed to ship in two months, I haven't seen much aside from a 3D render of the men at arms. I'm not sure if there are even sketches of all the new units yet.

In addition to my previous post, I think I'll do a Dakka image gallery full of all the KoW stuff that has been previewed and add it to my sig since a lot of people have missed a lot of the pics.

@judgedoug: This conversation would be had at some point regardless, and people were already starting to talk about it in the Loka thread.
As a forum for news and rumours, you can either have me posting the thread about it and sticking to the facts/ updating the OP or some random dude posting a "Mantic necromunda rip-off KS wtf" thread with "lol Mantic are fail the elves suck, GW ripoff hacks" as the OP and never updating it, like we got with the first week of the KoW Kickstarter. Take your pick. :p

It's true that the KS probably won't go live until about June-ish time or thereabouts, after DB Season 2 and KoW are either shipped or being shipping. June 2013 was the stated date for all the extras in the KoW campaign to be delivered.

 Bolognesus wrote:


Ah, water is still wet, firestill burns and Zweischneid still makes up KS rules. Nothing ever really changes

It's not a rule, only a "guideline". But it's not mine

Funding for projects only.
A project has a clear goal, like making an album, a book, or a work of art. A project will eventually be completed, and something will be produced by it. A project is not open-ended. Starting a business, for example, does not qualify as a project.

http://www.kickstarter.com/help/guidelines

Emphasis mine


Something that "continues to make profit" is clearly open ended.

A project can be completed and still make a profit by selling after it has finished.

UltraPrime wrote:
A project can be completed and still make a profit by selling after it has finished.

Perhaps.

It's vague enough.

But if you're taking a more lenient approach to interpreting the guidelines, there is clearly nothing stating, as Polonius implied, that demands Kickstarters to favour "ideas" over "production"

 Polonius wrote:


Especially when the point of KS is to get great ideas produced, I'd be happier if I saw more production and less great ideas from Mantic right now.
.

Indeed, the word "ideas" doesn't even feature in their guidelines, while the condition of "finality" (however vague) at least does.

More importantly, there is clearly no obligation in any form that a project, as Azazelx implied, "is supposed to sustain itself and generate profits"

 Azazelx wrote:


KS is supposed to generate initial revenue to complete a project. After that, the project, in theory, is supposed to sustain itself and generate profits for the company.

You can perhaps interpret the condition of "finality" to also include sales after the project ended in some cases. But it strikes me as strange to assume that projects are "supposed to sustain themselves" when a finality of sorts is one the explicit statement they put front-and-center.

Will it be not-Necromunda? Or not-Sedition Wars? Or an original idea (lol)? Only time will tell!

 scarletsquig wrote:

@judgedoug: This conversation would be had at some point regardless, and people were already starting to talk about it in the Loka thread.
As a forum for news and rumours, you can either have me posting the thread about it and sticking to the facts/ updating the OP or some random dude posting a "Mantic necromunda rip-off KS wtf" thread with "lol Mantic are fail the elves suck, GW ripoff hacks" as the OP and never updating it, like we got with the first week of the KoW Kickstarter. Take your pick. :p

Touche, I wasn't paying attention to Mantic or the Mantic-bashing around then. It was the Kings of War KS that made me really notice, then become a fan, and then the KoW rules themselves, which rapidly became the dominant miniatures ruleset in my gaming group.

 scarletsquig wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
Part of me is willing to cut Mantic a little slack, given how dramatically the "new stuff" pile in the KoW KS grew over time. It went from a handful of new units to a couple of armies worth. I know its just going to take time, especially when they only had concept sketches for most of the stuff.

A different part is watching the calender, and noting a dearth of KoW updates with Greens, sprues, etc of the new units. For stuff that's supposed to ship in two months, I haven't seen much aside from a 3D render of the men at arms. I'm not sure if there are even sketches of all the new units yet.

In addition to my previous post, I think I'll do a Dakka image gallery full of all the KoW stuff that has been previewed and add it to my sig since a lot of people have missed a lot of the pics.

I'm sure that'd be helpful. Maybe it's just a matter of perception. I've been a mantic fan since the Elves in 2010, so I've been getting the newsletters since way back. And after dropping a couple hundred bucks the better part of a year ago, I've been seeing constant updates on seemingly everything under the sun, but not a lot on the KoW.

Contrast that with, say, Reaper, who have done a decent job of explaining what is where in the process.

Yeah, one thing that Mantic did was not hang onto greens- they sent them immediately to be tooled so they could make their deadline. So the downside is we don't get lots of shots of the models, all painted, etc, but we do actually get them on time.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Bolognesus wrote:


Ah, water is still wet, firestill burns and Zweischneid still makes up KS rules. Nothing ever really changes

It's not a rule, only a "guideline". But it's not mine

Funding for projects only.
A project has a clear goal, like making an album, a book, or a work of art. A project will eventually be completed, and something will be produced by it. A project is not open-ended. Starting a business, for example, does not qualify as a project.

http://www.kickstarter.com/help/guidelines

Emphasis mine


Something that "continues to make profit" is clearly open ended.

Nope, you're just inferring from that rule what you *want* to read into it. This guy has it right:

UltraPrime wrote:
A project can be completed and still make a profit by selling after it has finished.

Good lord, if I were ever to try to interpret a statute in class the way you try to interpret this I'd probably get banned from the grounds for that alone


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:
No one plays any mantic games near me because they are unfriendly to FLGS.

How's that? I've heard quite the opposite around here, TBH...

The last Mantic newsletter said that Deadzone would be revealed at the next Mantic Open Day

so I expect that willalso be the 'official' reveal of their KS plans

 Bolognesus wrote:


Nope, you're just inferring from that rule what you *want* to read into it. This guy has it right:

UltraPrime wrote:
A project can be completed and still make a profit by selling after it has finished.

Good lord, if I were ever to try to interpret a statute in class the way you try to interpret this I'd probably get banned from the grounds for that alone

I conceded that this might well be the case.

Still, the point was how does anyone come to the conclusion that Kickstarter projects are, quote, "supposed to sustain itself and generate profits", when the one rule they give is that, quote, "A project will eventually be completed."

It's the difference between a possibility and an obligation.

Are Kickstarter guidelines vague enough to allow long-term financial (business) sustainability of projects? Yes. I concede.

Do Kickstarter guidelines in any way recommend or even demand long-term financial (business) sustainablity of projects? I don't see it.

How about taking the RAW/RAI for Kickstarter to a different thread?

Oh, don't get me wrong. I never said the other guy wasn't just as wrong - it just didn't quite catch my eye in the same way.

For a specific subset (the high start-up cost, ongoing production stuff like board games with plastic minis) though, he's got a bit of a point.

 Bolognesus wrote:

For a specific subset (the high start-up cost, ongoing production stuff like board games with plastic minis) though, he's got a bit of a point.

Well, I agree.

That is what Kickstarter is used for and that is what the site works for quite excellently. Wanna use it that way, more power to you.

But only because that is what works and is done most of the time, doesn't mean that this is "what Kickstarter was originally supposed to be there for"

If the accepted status-quo of "what is normal" on Kickstarter has changed, it can be changed again.

If you try to make a case based on some "original or pure intention of Kickstarter", this isn't it.

Heh, nice strawman, but that's not what I said. *You* have argued several times that that was not the point, inferring stuff that's not there at all from a rather general rule. Could they change the focus of their site? sure. to pretty much anything, actually. That has no bearing here, though. While KS started out with small 'artsy' type projects (which, even then, often carried on post-KS, but I digress) the rules were *never* meant to exclude continued sales, as some folks keep claiming.

 Bolognesus wrote:
Heh, nice strawman, but that's not what I said. *You* have argued several times that that was not the point, inferring stuff that's not there at all from a rather general rule. Could they change the focus of their site? sure. to pretty much anything, actually. That has no bearing here, though. While KS started out with small 'artsy' type projects (which, even then, often carried on post-KS, but I digress) the rules were *never* meant to exclude continued sales, as some folks keep claiming.

Perhaps.

But the rules were likewise *never* meant to exclude projects that are/were/aim to be/would be financially unsustainable without Kickstarter as many people have likewise claimed.

And as with the "small artsy guys" who do serial-kickstarters over-and-over-and-over again for whatever art-installation, etc.. they've come up with now, there's no restrictions for "other people" on Kickstarter for just running "something" 356 days a year if that's what makes them happy.

And THAT is the argument I discussed in THIS thread.

Not sure how that is a strawman, when you are referring to points I made elsewhere.

Now, it's entirely true that Mantic has done a pretty poor job reminding everyone of what's been going on (just releasing shots of greens over the last 6 months and assuming everyone is seeing and keeping track), but they are pretty much on track for the promised Q2 2013 delivery of all of the new units.

how do you Think they could have done it better?

No one plays any mantic games near me because they are unfriendly to FLGS.

untrue, they're a trade orientated business with FLGS friendly trade terms.

LOKA showed with just down-tight horrible and amateurish sculpts. I am scared to support anything without greens due to once they have your money, there is no guarantee their 'A class' Sculptors will do the concept.

I'd agree, except no one at Mantic sculpted LOKA, Alessio had an independent sculptor (the guy from warlord games in fact) do the models. LOKA isn't a mantic product, they're just distributing it.

Something that "continues to make profit" is clearly open ended.

What do you think the project creators that make those bits of art and albums do once the campaign has stopped and they've got the funding? Put it on their ipod and listen to it?

nkelsch wrote:
No one plays any mantic games near me because they are unfriendly to FLGS.

I am also annoyed they are doing more Kickstarters before delivering my items from previous Kickstarters. It feels like a giant rotating ponzi scheme.

It doesn't help that they don't have enough talented sculptors to keep up with the sheer number of sculpts they are making, LOKA showed with just down-tight horrible and amateurish sculpts. I am scared to support anything without greens due to once they have your money, there is no guarantee their 'A class' Sculptors will do the concept.

If I ever buy Mantic again, I will only do so via my FLGS so I will have a way to support my local store and return unsatisfactory quality casts like what was delivered in the Dreadball KS so far.

You do realise Mantic WILL send you replacement for miscasts if you send them an email with the picture don't you?

Unless you're saying your FLGS will refund you money if you don't like the sculpt of something you bought, which I find hard to believe.

 Black Nexus wrote:


What do you think the project creators that make those bits of art and albums do once the campaign has stopped and they've got the funding? Put it on their ipod and listen to it?

No they sell it.

Which is why I said nobody fething cares about what Kickstarter "was originally meant to be".

Not in music. Not in gaming.

That said, if you just wanna make an album on Kickstarter for your own iPod (and that of your backers), you're welcome to it. Nobody requires you to sell it, just because it's on Kickstarter.

And if you don't want to get involved with a studio and just do album after album on Kickstarter only, without any other distribution. Go for it!

 Cyporiean wrote:
How about taking the RAW/RAI for Kickstarter to a different thread?

Yes please.

 Black Nexus wrote:

Now, it's entirely true that Mantic has done a pretty poor job reminding everyone of what's been going on (just releasing shots of greens over the last 6 months and assuming everyone is seeing and keeping track), but they are pretty much on track for the promised Q2 2013 delivery of all of the new units.

how do you Think they could have done it better?

It's actually a problem with a lot of KS, honestly. Most people don't read the KS comments, don't read the relevant forums - they just get the email updates and skim them on their phone.
But is it possible for a KS to update the main page?
Having the front page continuously updated with greens and such. just a "Current Progress" section on the main page.
So if in doubt, just visit the main KS page and see all the greens and the current progress is "all models except stormwind cavalry are being tooled and cast right now."

 judgedoug wrote:

 Black Nexus wrote:

Now, it's entirely true that Mantic has done a pretty poor job reminding everyone of what's been going on (just releasing shots of greens over the last 6 months and assuming everyone is seeing and keeping track), but they are pretty much on track for the promised Q2 2013 delivery of all of the new units.

how do you Think they could have done it better?

It's actually a problem with a lot of KS, honestly. Most people don't read the KS comments, don't read the relevant forums - they just get the email updates and skim them on their phone.
But is it possible for a KS to update the main page?
Having the front page continuously updated with greens and such. just a "Current Progress" section on the main page.
So if in doubt, just visit the main KS page and see all the greens and the current progress is "all models except stormwind cavalry are being tooled and cast right now."

No, once the Kickstarter Ends you cannot update the main page.

same with the pledge levels they cannot be updated after the ks has ended to stop scammers. would be quite easy just to change everything you promised etc if the front page was editted after it closed.

nkelsch wrote:


It doesn't help that they don't have enough talented sculptors to keep up with the sheer number of sculpts they are making, LOKA showed with just down-tight horrible and amateurish sculpts. I am scared to support anything without greens due to once they have your money, there is no guarantee their 'A class' Sculptors will do the concept.

 scarletsquig wrote:
Oh, btw, something else that will make a lot of people on here very happy which I forgot to mention earlier:

Remy Tremblay is not a freelancer anymore, he is now a full-time Mantic employee.

In addition to this, he is the *only* sculptor who is allowed to work on the Warpath range.

For anyone who doesn't know who that guy is, click this link to his blog and start drooling. Basically if it's from Mantic, was sculpted in the last year and looks amazing there's good odds that it was one of his sculpts.

 scarletsquig wrote:
In addition to my previous post, I think I'll do a Dakka image gallery full of all the KoW stuff that has been previewed and add it to my sig since a lot of people have missed a lot of the pics.

YES please . It would be greatly appreciated!

scarletsquig wrote:It's true that the KS probably won't go live until about June-ish time or thereabouts, after DB Season 2 and KoW are either shipped or being shipping. June 2013 was the stated date for all the extras in the KoW campaign to be delivered.

I think they need to ship KoW before doing another KS. That's been my stance on most campaigns. Doesn't seem to be hurting CMON, but it has to lose a certain percentage of business (well... mine, for instance ).

 judgedoug wrote:

 Black Nexus wrote:

Now, it's entirely true that Mantic has done a pretty poor job reminding everyone of what's been going on (just releasing shots of greens over the last 6 months and assuming everyone is seeing and keeping track), but they are pretty much on track for the promised Q2 2013 delivery of all of the new units.

how do you Think they could have done it better?

It's actually a problem with a lot of KS, honestly. Most people don't read the KS comments, don't read the relevant forums - they just get the email updates and skim them on their phone.
But is it possible for a KS to update the main page?
Having the front page continuously updated with greens and such. just a "Current Progress" section on the main page.
So if in doubt, just visit the main KS page and see all the greens and the current progress is "all models except stormwind cavalry are being tooled and cast right now."

No it's not possible to alter the KS front page once the project has funded, so there's no way to do this

(presumably to prevent project creators altering what they offered/promised)

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

 Black Nexus wrote:

Now, it's entirely true that Mantic has done a pretty poor job reminding everyone of what's been going on (just releasing shots of greens over the last 6 months and assuming everyone is seeing and keeping track), but they are pretty much on track for the promised Q2 2013 delivery of all of the new units.

how do you Think they could have done it better?

It's actually a problem with a lot of KS, honestly. Most people don't read the KS comments, don't read the relevant forums - they just get the email updates and skim them on their phone.
But is it possible for a KS to update the main page?
Having the front page continuously updated with greens and such. just a "Current Progress" section on the main page.
So if in doubt, just visit the main KS page and see all the greens and the current progress is "all models except stormwind cavalry are being tooled and cast right now."

No it's not possible to alter the KS front page once the project has funded, so there's no way to do this

(presumably to prevent project creators altering what they offered/promised)

That certainly makes sense. You could get around that by having images linked on the main KS page that you just change the images out.

For instance your main page might have placeholder links to:
placeholder1.jpg
placeholder2.jpg
...
placeholder15.jpg

and then you just put new images with the same file name.

In that case, then at least have redundant links in every update. So this past KoW update showing the human infantry would have a link at the bottom going to the Mantic site with a small page showing all the completed greens. That really wouldn't be hard to do at all. Every KS update published would contain that link, and the link is maintained just by putting up the most recent pics of all the KS goodies.

possible.

on topic, deadzone is sounding cool...

 Black Nexus wrote:
possible.

on topic, deadzone is sounding cool...

Oh absolutely. Plastic configurable terrain = instabuy.

@judgedoug - Not possible, kickstarter replaces all images you upload or hotlink on the main KS page with its own versions hosted on the amazon cloud, which you cannot access. Right click and look at the filename on any KS front page pic, it'll be a3.amazonaws.somethingorother.

This change was made at some point during the Reaper kickstarter, as I recall it messed things up for them quite a bit since the kickstarter servers were less reliable than their own, meaning their huge progression graphic took ages to load.

It's annoying because if you remove the pic from the front page, amazon deletes it from their servers as well, breaking all hotlinks to it.

I guess you could put a link to a webpage that will act as a container for all previews up on the KS page right before it closes and throw all progress in there, but that's about it. The KS website itself does not make things easy.

I'm just about done with the KoW Kickstarter sculpt image gallery, there's a few things missing that I need to dig up (immortal guard, screencap of men-at-arms, anything else?), but it's mostly all there:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/images-39827-32855_Mantic%20Kow%20Kickstarter%20Sculpts.html

Mummies, Cat Cav, Fleabags, Stormwind Cav and a few of the backer hero sculpts are the only things we haven't seen.

One thing I noticed while doing this is that there is actually *very* little posted on the KoW Kickstarter updates currently, I think that might be why people are getting annoyed/ stating that nothing has been shown, when in fact 80% of everything has been shown, there's only about 3-4 images on there, the older ones like the ogres are no longer working, so for anyone who doesn't subscribe to the newsletter, going back and checking every now and then isn't so easy.

It's something that could be improved upon, keeping a collection of all current progress up-to-date and easy to find by backers (The updates section on KS pages allows hotlinking, at least, so it could be done there). I'll do a similar one of these galleries for dreadball.