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 Frazzled wrote:
Whats interesting is that, if this is the next great pending civil rights issue in the USA, then we've come far indeed from the bad old days.

AMERRRRIKA HURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

That's a really good point. I think people are sometimes so fixated on present injustices that they don't spend enough to realise how far we've come in so little time.

I mean, 50 years did anyone think it was possible that there'd be a black President today?

Or did anyone think just 20 years ago that by 2013 gay marriage recognition would be not only possible, but actually an inevitability?

 Cheesecat wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
I've never understood what the problem was with European-style unisex bathrooms. Completely bypasses this problem.

Yeah I always wondered if Canada should do this, also urinals are a waste of space since you can both pee and poop in toilets plus they're covered by stalls so they're more private. Another advantage about toilets is you can sit when taking a piss which is imo way more comfortable than

standing when urinating unfortunately in high school, kids would make fun of me and say I have a vagina (I don't they're liars) just because I prefer sitting over standing while taking a leak (the joke's on them as sitting makes the task much more relaxing and enjoyable, they're missing out

imo).

Wait until you are old enough to hit the bars. You will never voluntarily sit on a men's room toilet after 9pm.

feeder wrote:

 Cheesecat wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
I've never understood what the problem was with European-style unisex bathrooms. Completely bypasses this problem.

Yeah I always wondered if Canada should do this, also urinals are a waste of space since you can both pee and poop in toilets plus they're covered by stalls so they're more private. Another advantage about toilets is you can sit when taking a piss which is imo way more comfortable than

standing when urinating unfortunately in high school, kids would make fun of me and say I have a vagina (I don't they're liars) just because I prefer sitting over standing while taking a leak (the joke's on them as sitting makes the task much more relaxing and enjoyable, they're missing out

imo).

Wait until you are old enough to hit the bars. You will never voluntarily sit on a men's room toilet after 9pm.

I'm 20, but last time I went to the Noble Pig and Carlos O'Bryan's (or was it Kelly O'Bryan's can't remember the difference) I don't remember the toilets being bad at all, that being said my university's toilets are absolute gak no one knows how to aim there junk as the toilet seats are either wet

with piss or are sticky because the piss has finally dried on them.

 Cheesecat wrote:

feeder wrote:

 Cheesecat wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
I've never understood what the problem was with European-style unisex bathrooms. Completely bypasses this problem.

Yeah I always wondered if Canada should do this, also urinals are a waste of space since you can both pee and poop in toilets plus they're covered by stalls so they're more private. Another advantage about toilets is you can sit when taking a piss which is imo way more comfortable than

standing when urinating unfortunately in high school, kids would make fun of me and say I have a vagina (I don't they're liars) just because I prefer sitting over standing while taking a leak (the joke's on them as sitting makes the task much more relaxing and enjoyable, they're missing out

imo).

Wait until you are old enough to hit the bars. You will never voluntarily sit on a men's room toilet after 9pm.

I'm 20, but last time I went to the Noble Pig and Carlos O'Bryan's (or was it Kelly O'Bryan's can't remember the difference) I don't remember the toilets being bad at all, that being said my university's toilets are absolute gak no one knows how to aim there junk as the toilet seats are either wet

with piss or are sticky because the piss has finally dried on them.

That's probably because you were in there before everyone got smashed.

Steve steveson wrote:
Unfortunatly it is often (not always) worse from the LGB community. Many of them seem to have a big problem with trans people. It seems, from what I have known from the few trans people I have known in my time, that gay and lesbian people are just as biased as the rest of the world but feel they can get away with being more vocal. This is not all gay and lesbians but the small minority, just like the small homophobic minority.

And black voters, on getting out in 2008 and voting in the first black President in history... were also a decisive voting block in the constitutional reform to ban gay marriage in California.

For some unfortunate reason, when a minority finally wins equality they are typically the first group to shut the door on those groups still struggling for equal rights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kronk wrote:
Sadly, enough hasn't been done yet for the G&L community. Only 21 states have outlawed discrimination based on sexual orientation.

Most states still don't.

Linky. Yes, it's a wiki, but still good information.

Sure, there's still a lot to be done. But look at the numbers that are in support of gay marriage today, and more importantly look at the trend. There's no wonder the Republicans are figuring how to jump off that ship without alienating the social conservatives - it's a losing battle.

It's just sad that while that battle is slowly being lost, those same people are looking at some other minority to start picking on instead.

 sebster wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Whats interesting is that, if this is the next great pending civil rights issue in the USA, then we've come far indeed from the bad old days.

AMERRRRIKA HURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

That's a really good point. I think people are sometimes so fixated on present injustices that they don't spend enough to realise how far we've come in so little time.

I mean, 50 years did anyone think it was possible that there'd be a black President today?

Or did anyone think just 20 years ago that by 2013 gay marriage recognition would be not only possible, but actually an inevitability?

This is so true, too much time is given to smaller issues nowdays without seeing how far we have come in such a short time. I always try to think asboout the progress made because in the late 90's i had a wake up call.
Fresh out of high school i got a job and was chatting with my boss and he was telling me about a guy he went to school with who was gay and had to hide it and i looked at him in all innocence and said "why didn't he just tell people he was gay" his response was a loud exasperated "because it was the fething 70's" .

Ever since that moment i try to focus on the positives of social change not take it all for granted.

In regard to transgenders going into toilets , i think it would be most strange having a male to female (whatever they are called) come into the male toilets , it would be like a music festival everyday in arizona.

Bullockist wrote:
In regard to transgenders going into toilets , i think it would be most strange having a male to female (whatever they are called)

"Woman". That's the word you were asking for.

If they haven't fully made the transition, are they women? If so i'll make sure i call them that in the future.

I wasn't sure of what term to use, that's why i wrote male to female .

Bullockist wrote:
If they haven't fully made the transition, are they women? If so i'll make sure i call them that in the future.

I wasn't sure of what term to use, that's why i wrote male to female .

From my very (admittedly very limited experience in the matter) they can be sensitive about the issue (understandably), but the best bet is to go with calling them whatever they identify themselves as.

I'm certainly no expert, though. All I know is that the two people I've met who wanted to become biologically women both wanted people to call them women, and the one guy that wanted to dress as a women but not undergo surgery didn't, but wasn't offended if you used that term before he corrected you.

It's most polite to call MtF or FtM transpersons by the gender they identify with, once they are living as that gender. There's some flux prior to that, but it's usually best to default to the self identified gender, or of course you can just ask the individual in question how they prefer to be referred to.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
It's most polite to call MtF or FtM transpersons by the gender they identify with, once they are living as that gender. There's some flux prior to that, but it's usually best to default to the self identified gender, or of course you can just ask the individual in question how they prefer to be referred to.

I've got this covered. Use Frazzled's term when attempting to address others: "Hey! hole!"

 Cheesecat wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
I've never understood what the problem was with European-style unisex bathrooms. Completely bypasses this problem.

Yeah I always wondered if Canada should do this, also urinals are a waste of space since you can both pee and poop in toilets plus they're covered by stalls so they're more private. Another advantage about toilets is you can sit when taking a piss which is imo way more comfortable than

Having cleaned mens and womens toilets at the end of the night, I don't want unisex toilets. The most mess you ever get in a guy's toilet is maybe a blockage and there are normally problems with men drinking/standing/aiming.
Womens toilets are the worst. There are things you wish you can unsee, and thats one of them.
There are many bins provided, they just never seemed to use them.
So glad I don't work there anymore...

But unisex would just lead to problems on a night out - the main reason urinals are there are they have a high turnaround speed. You don't use them because they are comfy or anything - this gets blokes back out to the bar drinking - which is where you make money.
All stalls means queue's for everybody and all the stuff that the women throw on the floor would get covered in 'liquid'.
Bleurgh...

Random question
I used to work in a nightclub, there was a person who came in one night who looked like a man in drag. I mainly remember stubble you could clean a pan with.
This person went into the women's toilets - what do you do at that point?
We couldn't exactly check his 'credentials'.

If they haven't fully made the transition, are they women? If so i'll make sure i call them that in the future.

I wasn't sure of what term to use, that's why i wrote male to female/

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
It's most polite to call MtF or FtM transpersons by the gender they identify with, once they are living as that gender. There's some flux prior to that, but it's usually best to default to the self identified gender, or of course you can just ask the individual in question how they prefer to be referred to.

KM and Ouze, for the most part, have it. When referring to a transperson, it's best to refer to them by what they're using. If they're still early on in the FtM transition, and they're referring to themselves as "she, her, etc..." Then you're safe to use feminine pronouns and refer to her as a woman/girl/lady. If they use male pronouns then you use those and refer to him as a guy.

 Alfndrate wrote:

If they haven't fully made the transition, are they women? If so i'll make sure i call them that in the future.

I wasn't sure of what term to use, that's why i wrote male to female/

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
It's most polite to call MtF or FtM transpersons by the gender they identify with, once they are living as that gender. There's some flux prior to that, but it's usually best to default to the self identified gender, or of course you can just ask the individual in question how they prefer to be referred to.

KM and Ouze, for the most part, have it. When referring to a transperson, it's best to refer to them by what they're using. If they're still early on in the FtM transition, and they're referring to themselves as "she, her, etc..." Then you're safe to use feminine pronouns and refer to her as a woman/girl/lady. If they use male pronouns then you use those and refer to him as a guy.

This person just walked straight into the toilet - there wasn't really much chance for a conversation. It was an awkward situation as we had women complaining about this person using the toilets. It was a good few years ago now, so it's unlikely to crop up for me again.

But I'm with you - use whatever pronoun they use

When in doubt, let the guy on the next shift deal with it...

I've been in the Ladies lavatory at Gas Panic bar in Roppongi and it was just as bad as the Gentlemen's. However that may be because hordes of drunk men like me had gone in there.

(Not all at the same time.)

Probably not. My understanding is women are just as bad as men at making a mess, dispite the diffrent, ahem, plumbing arangements.

In any job I've ever had there were more complaints about the ladies' room than the mens' room.

The worst bathroom I ever had to clean was a men's room. But that was based on the fact it was a boy scout summer camp, and the men/boys outnumbered the women by a fair amount... With that being said... I always loathed cleaning the Women's room when the numbers got more equal...

Also having to clean gak from every wall of a stall is a frightening thing...

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
In any job I've ever had there were more complaints about the ladies' room than the mens' room.

My HR lady and I used to sit reasonably close to each other, and when there were lulls we'd chat each other up. She said much the same.

 Rented Tritium wrote:

Steve steveson wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
My wife used to do a lot of work in the GLBT community back in 2005 and transgender/intersex folk used to face a lot of discrimination from both the straight population and the gay/lesbian folks in the community.

Unfortunatly it is often (not always) worse from the LGB community. Many of them seem to have a big problem with trans people. It seems, from what I have known from the few trans people I have known in my time, that gay and lesbian people are just as biased as the rest of the world but feel they can get away with being more vocal. This is not all gay and lesbians but the small minority, just like the small homophobic minority.

Same with bisexuals, though that has gotten a lot better in the last bit.

As one who has dated a bisexual all i can say is who wouldnt want too

But seriously though this is a really really stupid law and quite frankly i see no purpose in it. Arizona, drop the act please. We get that your all discriminating douches.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alfndrate wrote:
The worst bathroom I ever had to clean was a men's room. But that was based on the fact it was a boy scout summer camp, and the men/boys outnumbered the women by a fair amount... With that being said... I always loathed cleaning the Women's room when the numbers got more equal...

Also having to clean gak from every wall of a stall is a frightening thing...

Damn sounds like someone had one to many vindaloos

Damnit Arizona, stop embarassing me. Also, Phoenix is a craphole anyway, surrounded by the crapholes of Gilbert and Chandler, all wrapped in the crap tortilla that is Maricopa County. Frelling embarassing.