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Since its pretty obvious DftS was conceived a while ago, is it reasonable to think that the expanded dogfighting rules were written with the new flyers in mind? There is a long of crying and gnashing.of teeth over the weaknesses of the Nephilim, but after perusing the expansion, maybe it wouldn't be so bad with the expansion.

Thoughts?

Nephilim i still an over-costed rip of the Avenger Strike Fighter with less power and utility.

If the other flyers that come out are made in a similar way as the nephilim then it will be fine but right now the air superiority is with the crons and imp guard. Helldrakes have vector strikes but even that isn't as bad as triple lascannon (for less points). Flyers are cool but they need to be brought into better balance with each and the game which I believe newer codexes are trying to do. Of course with access to forge world and imperial armour...

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Since its pretty obvious DftS was conceived a while ago, is it reasonable to think that the expanded dogfighting rules were written with the new flyers in mind? There is a long of crying and gnashing.of teeth over the weaknesses of the Nephilim, but after perusing the expansion, maybe it wouldn't be so bad with the expansion.

I really doubt it. It's an optional expansion with a limited print run, and very few people are ever going to use the optional rules (and for good reason, they're absolutely terrible). The more likely explanation is that the rules were thrown together in 15 minutes by the janitor (who has never played 40k) to take up more space and "justify" charging full-book prices for half a page of errata.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Nephilim i still an over-costed rip of the Avenger Strike Fighter with less power and utility.

This.

i wanted to rage about fliers but after rewriting my post 4 times i figured i might wanna skip on that lol.

Other than allowing another MEQ to use the Stormraven, what the hell did that book change of any real significance? I know for Orks all it did was correct the wording on Dakkajet's "Fighta Ace" or whatever they call it now to include fliers, which was already assumed they missed that part anyway when changing these planes from Skimmers to Fliers.
Im curious if they even made the money back to print the book, let alone a profit from it. What are they going to do if a new codex has a new flier available? Not give it to the codex and print out another DftS and piss more people off? lol GL with that GW

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Im curious if they even made the money back to print the book, let alone a profit from it.

I'm sure it made a profit. Don't forget, the entire first print run sold out, and the costs of creating the book were pretty much nonexistent (since it was all recycled material).

Yea but how many were made? That is a tactic to say WE SOLD OUT! when there was only a handful to begin with.

Either way like i care im still not getting the book.

I dont own the book, yet my black, white, and red Raven and Talon are still zipping around the board shooting at gak.

DA flyer? They have a very strong ground force. Chill out on the Neph already.

Seeing that the guard and necrons have some though fliers there is bound to be more that have some more umph to it.

We will have a better picture when the new Tau Codex lands I hope.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Yea but how many were made? That is a tactic to say WE SOLD OUT! when there was only a handful to begin with.

The point is that the cost of designing the book was pretty minimal (copy/paste the awful crusade of fire rules, write up a fake "battle report", done before lunch) so as long as the sale price is higher than the price to print each copy GW is making a profit. The only way DftS could fail to make a profit would be if they printed too many copies and had a warehouse full of unsold books, which didn't happen.

Anyone actually get their hands on it? Is it true that even with that book the SW don't have access to any flyers or AA other than an AGL w. quad?

It's not a limited run, there was just a delay between initial stock selling out and restock arriving in various territories.

Not that I could care less about it, but if anyone's going to debate it, might as well be factually correct.

the content obviously had a low cost, but what's the cost of printing and binding a full color book of that size these days?

Wow... I don't care about how much GW is making off the book.

Ok, let's see if we can put this train back on the rails after being sidetracked by Peregrine... Has anyone actually used the new rules for dogfighting? Has it made your flyer experience better?

Orktavius wrote:
the content obviously had a low cost, but what's the cost of printing and binding a full color book of that size these days?

Not as much as you'd think.

Though it's not as simple as grabbing the pages from all of the other publications. There's still plenty of editing done to get the book ready for sale even with existing content.

in short "Has anyone actually used the new rules for dogfighting? Has it made your flyer experience better?" Yes have tried, no it didn't make it any better (nor really worse for that matter) but the price for content. not worth it in my honest opinion


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ -Loki-: i used to work in editting newspapers, it really is that easy, as copy and paste.....just saying. and if you are working off pre-made or publicated material it's even easier, scan, edit in photoshop, edit in office/word or anyother program press print and simply add fancy colour pages...though to be honest it'd take longer than 30 minutes to do, more likely done in a day, but spread over a week (people need to get paid etc)

again, don't care about the economics of publishing...

Last I heard the book was back ordered. Now I can't find it on the GW website.

 Orkimedes1000 wrote:
@ -Loki-: i used to work in editting newspapers, it really is that easy, as copy and paste.....just saying. and if you are working off pre-made or publicated material it's even easier, scan, edit in photoshop, edit in office/word or anyother program press print and simply add fancy colour pages...though to be honest it'd take longer than 30 minutes to do, more likely done in a day, but spread over a week (people need to get paid etc)

Which does still fall under 'plenty of editing'. Most people think they can just throw the pages from whatever publication they were originally in, into a new PDF, send it to a laser printer, and call it a day.

For one, there's all new pages like the first few in every book - title pages, credits pages, intro pages, etc. There's some new colour 'gallery' pages to set up, even if the photos already exist. Assuming they're using the same unit entry pages from the previous publications, there's still at least cursory cross checking to make sure it ported across well, moreso if they, for example, dropped an image which would throw formatting out. Then adding borders, page numbering, background overlays, print testing etc. I'd say your estimate of a week is fairly accurate for a colour book (hint - I work in an industry right now that does this kind of document set up).

Orktavius wrote:
the content obviously had a low cost, but what's the cost of printing and binding a full color book of that size these days?

Ehh, depends on the quality and quantity. High quantity black and whites for big name authors maybe $1.50 at most. GW current quality and quantity maybe $5-$15+ depending on who they've got a contract with and if it's a limited or mass produced codex (aka CSM vs Limited edition CSM).

 -Loki- wrote:

 Orkimedes1000 wrote:
@ -Loki-: i used to work in editting newspapers, it really is that easy, as copy and paste.....just saying. and if you are working off pre-made or publicated material it's even easier, scan, edit in photoshop, edit in office/word or anyother program press print and simply add fancy colour pages...though to be honest it'd take longer than 30 minutes to do, more likely done in a day, but spread over a week (people need to get paid etc)

Which does still fall under 'plenty of editing'. Most people think they can just throw the pages from whatever publication they were originally in, into a new PDF, send it to a laser printer, and call it a day.

For one, there's all new pages like the first few in every book - title pages, credits pages, intro pages, etc. There's some new colour 'gallery' pages to set up, even if the photos already exist. Assuming they're using the same unit entry pages from the previous publications, there's still at least cursory cross checking to make sure it ported across well, moreso if they, for example, dropped an image which would throw formatting out. Then adding borders, page numbering, background overlays, print testing etc. I'd say your estimate of a week is fairly accurate for a colour book (hint - I work in an industry right now that does this kind of document set up).

You would think with all the editing somebody would at least perform a spell check or grammar check as well.

On topic nope I haven't used them and I haven't even seen anyone in my area that owns the book. Nobody is willing to pay the price for such low content.

R3YNO wrote:
Seeing that the guard and necrons have some though fliers there is bound to be more that have some more umph to it.

We will have a better picture when the new Tau Codex lands I hope.

why would they introduce MORE power creep, how about we wait till IG and Cron dex's land and theirs gets nerfed which is the way its heading... stop 1 upping and cut everyone down to one size...

i wanted to rage about fliers but after rewriting my post 4 times i figured i might wanna skip on that lol

^^^

I'm sick to death of every army I face having IG allies and a Vendetta

CoI wrote:
Anyone actually get their hands on it? Is it true that even with that book the SW don't have access to any flyers or AA other than an AGL w. quad?

Some slow hath gimped the SW with a piece of fluff that is the equivalent of squiggoth turd. They're too superstitious to use the terminator teleportation capabilities, or fliers, because their primarch fought on foot. This fear of flying does not extend to drop pods however. Also they don't have Flakk Missiles either.

 Gyrtop wrote:

CoI wrote:
Anyone actually get their hands on it? Is it true that even with that book the SW don't have access to any flyers or AA other than an AGL w. quad?

Some slow hath gimped the SW with a piece of fluff that is the equivalent of squiggoth turd. They're too superstitious to use the terminator teleportation capabilities, or fliers, because their primarch fought on foot. This fear of flying does not extend to drop pods however. Also they don't have Flakk Missiles either.

o/c they dont have Flakk Missles........... they are a 5th ed codex... does C:Sm have it? no, is it only DA and CSM soo far....? yes it is.

people just need to wait... with the rate of codex's coming out it wont be a 5 yr wait if this keeps up 2 at the most and all should be IF it continues how it is and it will all be even

 Byte wrote:
Last I heard the book was back ordered. Now I can't find it on the GW website.

That is because it is currently unavailable in North America. If you change the country to UK you can find it.

CoI wrote:
Anyone actually get their hands on it? Is it true that even with that book the SW don't have access to any flyers or AA other than an AGL w. quad?

It's true that they have no flyers. The irony is that they have Fighter Ace upgrades and Special Manoeuvers for the no flyers they have.

 Dakkamite wrote:

i wanted to rage about fliers but after rewriting my post 4 times i figured i might wanna skip on that lol

^^^

I'm sick to death of every army I face having IG allies and a Vendetta

For some armies, there is no choice. Sisters are an excellent example. If they are my primary force, IG are my only battle brothers. So if I want some added synergy, I field IG. I don't always use a Vendetta, but the addition of highly mobile las cannons is something I don't have normally at all.