Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Here is my rant; what if the tyranids were created by the old ones? Now before you say "That would never happen" listen to my theory:

I think the tyranids were created by the old ones to fight the necrons in the early days of the war. Back when the necrons were necrontyr, and Matt Ward didn't turn the C'tan into Pokemon. Think about it. The old ones could have sent tyranids to ravage necrontyr planets and turn them into wastes. I also think they engineered them to adapt to the enemies tactics, a very great power. I think when the necrontyr went terminator, the tyranids could not adapt to a computer that analyzed every possible move (Any lord). The tyranids might have fled, leaving some bio morphs such as catachan devils and krakens of fenris (remember not to release the latter). When the tyranids were at large enough numbers they returned. Only to find their enemy alive and their creators very much dead. Which is why they avoided the necrons (not because they didn't have biomass! Tyranids also consume metal for biomass.). That's the end of my rant. Before you say old ones could not make something like that take a look at...

Exhibit A

And Exhibit B

Please don't post if your going to just say that this theory is stupid, at least include GOOD reasons!

Well the one hole that is pretty obvious is why have they returned? If they fled because they could not adapt (so reading couldnt win), why would they just return with larger numbers? As you say they already cant use necrons because they lack biomass. So they would have had no way of knowing if they had enough forces (because they cant replenish) to defeat an enemy that for all they knew ruled the galaxy. If they fled the first time, why are they staying now? The Eldar and Orks were there when they left, so saying they would stay just for the new biomass is a bit of a stretch, because they must notice that the necrons are reawakening too.

Just my view on your theory.

It would make more sense if the Old Ones banished the Tyranid once the Necrontyr were contained but before they discovered the C'Tan. The Old Ones were masters of the Warp, they could have sent the Nids milennia distant. The nids meanwhile could have been on their way back ever since.

I don't see it as more interesting than nids being true "outsiders" to our galaxy but I guess it's not impossible.

Can't beat necrons? Leaves galaxy to gather some huge amount of bio mass from another galaxy... probably and risky, the nids could have ran into another or more fearsome foe by chance or even more necrons. In that time orks practically punch the lights out on necrons with their brain boys after the eldar have been devastated by necrons and slanesh. Eldar remove the brain boys but before doing so the brain boys implant themselves in ork blood. Orks get reduced in working together and fracture apart. Nids return to beat their old foe? Their old foe is alseep.. have they won?

Its argued that orks were designed to destroy the necrons. I like the idea of nids adding to it, but now with no primary directive they just wander? If you could fill in what they are suppose to do now it would be a great idea.

The krorks would smash the necrons, and they would get back up. What if the tyranids had the job of consuming the remaining scrap before it was reanimated, though tyranids alone no match for necrons.

Anyone find it odd that tyranids only assimilated OLD ONE races? It said in old fluff orks let rippers because they were orky... I wonder if this is the case....

Phonics wrote:
The krorks would smash the necrons, and they would get back up. What if the tyranids had the job of consuming the remaining scrap before it was reanimated, though tyranids alone no match for necrons.

Anyone find it odd that tyranids only assimilated OLD ONE races? It said in old fluff orks let rippers because they were orky... I wonder if this is the case....

First off, when an ork smashes a necron, the necrons body is teleported to the nearest tomb world for so the nids can't eat the body.

The nids have assimilated many other races instead of those made by the old ones. Especially the human race. Also those were squigs, that section was explaining how squigs came to be.

I asked people to support their statements. I have not heard of a tyranid derived from humans. Can you tell me what they are?

 cormadepanda wrote:
Can't beat necrons? Leaves galaxy to gather some huge amount of bio mass from another galaxy... probably and risky, the nids could have ran into another or more fearsome foe by chance or even more necrons. In that time orks practically punch the lights out on necrons with their brain boys after the eldar have been devastated by necrons and slanesh. Eldar remove the brain boys but before doing so the brain boys implant themselves in ork blood. Orks get reduced in working together and fracture apart. Nids return to beat their old foe? Their old foe is alseep.. have they won?

Its argued that orks were designed to destroy the necrons. I like the idea of nids adding to it, but now with no primary directive they just wander? If you could fill in what they are suppose to do now it would be a great idea.

Slaanesh did nothing to the Eldar during their fight with the Necrons. The Necron-Eldar War was some 60 million years ago, Slaanesh didn't show up until 10,000 years ago. The "Brain Boyz" were the Old Ones, the Eldar did not remove them, they were created by them and served them. There's a number of issues with this hypothesis.

Tyranid origin will never be explained in fluff unfortunately. They've been around in their current incarnation since about the late 90's to no avail.

I do not think they have any relation to those within the Galaxy. Rather, they evolved seperately in another galaxy and the Milky Way is simply one of many stops.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Necrons#.UVD6szetomc

Look under the overview, it will tell you about how the necronns "Phase out" after they take to much damage to actually self-repair effectively. Also read Fall of Damnos by Nick Kyme. I don't know if it still counts as fluff but it still talk about the necrons "Phasing out" Ability.

As for the nids Hive Fleet Gorgon, they had a unique ability to adapt biologically to new threats. Now this one is uncertain, but it is thought that they get this ability from the tau.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Hive_Fleet_Gorgon#.UVD88Tetomc

Finally Tyrant Guard are rumored to have genetics of fallen space marine chapters in them.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tyrant_Guard#.UVD9mzetomc

Phonics wrote:
I asked people to support their statements. I have not heard of a tyranid derived from humans. Can you tell me what they are?

Genestealers and brood lords. Also tyrant guards are noted to have black carapace akin to space marines.

Why do people insist on tying Nid's to something in the galaxy. Why can't we just say they're an extragalactic species?

Phonics wrote:
Here is my rant; what if the tyranids were created by the old ones? Now before you say "That would never happen" listen to my theory:

That would never happen.

The Tyranids have been through 12 galaxies before reaching ours (5th edition rulebook, Tyranid fluff section). Sheer travel time between 12 galaxies, even at the not-quite-FTL they can do with Narvhals (which only works intergalactically anyway since they need to be able to see a system to use their gravatational lensing magic), kills the theory.

I personally liked the theory that they were the enslaver plague and were now returning to this galaxy

 -Loki- wrote:
The Tyranids have been through 12 galaxies before reaching ours (5th edition rulebook, Tyranid fluff section). Sheer travel time between 12 galaxies, even at the not-quite-FTL they can do with Narvhals (which only works intergalactically anyway since they need to be able to see a system to use their gravatational lensing magic), kills the theory.

There's this... and then there's Tyranids having been around since before WH40K even existed as Rogue Trader (various board games including Space Hulk and Tyranid Attack), whereas Necrons and the subsequent Old One fluff that came with them appeared in very late 2nd edition. If there's any ties to the Tyranids, it'd have to have been a very heavy retcon.
Not saying it couldn't happen, but I haven't seen anything to dispute Loki's point in fluff yet.

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
I personally liked the theory that they were the enslaver plague and were now returning to this galaxy

The Enslaver Plague was near the end of the War in Heaven. They would have been about halfway here from their last galaxy. They snacked on 11 more before that one.

Seriously, the 'eaten 12 galaxies already' fluff makes them stupendously old and pretty much invalidates any theory about them being tied to anything about the War in Heaven.

As fan fiction I put forward the same idea in this thread

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/436796.page

Basically

The Old Ones fled to the outer reaches of the Universe during the war in Heaven. This was one of their final bastions and laboratories on the very edge of space, it was maybe 12 Galaxies away from ours

Tyranids were the last race created by the Old Ones before they were wiped out.

They were the final weapon made to remove the taint of the failed first experiments and the Necrontyr. Unfortunately the Old Ones which were responsible for this new race didn't count on the Tyranids seeing them as something to be cleansed as well.

They were to eventually burn themselves out once all life was scoured from the galaxy, basically using all other lifeforms to fuel them until the Necrons had been defeated. Kind of a self destruct mechanism. Once there was nothing left, and the Tyranids weren't anymore the Old Ones would return and reseed the dead planets with life again. .

 Pilau Rice wrote:
As fan fiction I put forward the same idea in this thread

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/436796.page

Basically

The Old Ones fled to the outer reaches of the Universe during the war in Heaven. This was one of their final bastions and laboratories on the very edge of space, it was maybe 12 Galaxies away from ours

Tyranids were the last race created by the Old Ones before they were wiped out.

They were the final weapon made to remove the taint of the failed first experiments and the Necrontyr. Unfortunately the Old Ones which were responsible for this new race didn't count on the Tyranids seeing them as something to be cleansed as well.

They were to eventually burn themselves out once all life was scoured from the galaxy, basically using all other lifeforms to fuel them until the Necrons had been defeated. Kind of a self destruct mechanism. Once there was nothing left, and the Tyranids weren't anymore the Old Ones would return and reseed the dead planets with life again. .

Somaybe take it to the fan fiction forum? This forum is for actual background discussion, and this is contradicted by official fluff.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
As fan fiction I put forward the same idea in this thread

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/436796.page

Basically

The Old Ones fled to the outer reaches of the Universe during the war in Heaven. This was one of their final bastions and laboratories on the very edge of space, it was maybe 12 Galaxies away from ours

Tyranids were the last race created by the Old Ones before they were wiped out.

They were the final weapon made to remove the taint of the failed first experiments and the Necrontyr. Unfortunately the Old Ones which were responsible for this new race didn't count on the Tyranids seeing them as something to be cleansed as well.

They were to eventually burn themselves out once all life was scoured from the galaxy, basically using all other lifeforms to fuel them until the Necrons had been defeated. Kind of a self destruct mechanism. Once there was nothing left, and the Tyranids weren't anymore the Old Ones would return and reseed the dead planets with life again. .

Somaybe take it to the fan fiction forum? This forum is for actual background discussion, and this is contradicted by official fluff.

Ok, but it's in relation to the OPs topic, which is in the Background section, and an alternative to what the OP suggested but also along the same lines.

How exactly is it contradicted by the current fluff? Genuine question.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
I personally liked the theory that they were the enslaver plague and were now returning to this galaxy

The Enslaver Plague was near the end of the War in Heaven. They would have been about halfway here from their last galaxy. They snacked on 11 more before that one.

Seriously, the 'eaten 12 galaxies already' fluff makes them stupendously old and pretty much invalidates any theory about them being tied to anything about the War in Heaven.

I know but it was quite intriguing while it was a possibility

The fluff says they MAY have eaten 10-13 galaxies. As you can't ask a hormagaunt that number is an estimate. Even if they did why would life forms that are similar to them in the galaxy? (Catachan Devils and Krakens)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zande4 wrote:

Phonics wrote:
I asked people to support their statements. I have not heard of a tyranid derived from humans. Can you tell me what they are?

Genestealers and brood lords. Also tyrant guards are noted to have black carapace akin to space marines.

You sir have not read your fluff! Tyranid genestealers are not human derived. Am I supposed to believe Ymgarls, who had barely been in contact with humans, got their shape from them? If a genestealer infects a cat it is not cat derived. Thanks for the tyrant guard fluff though.

Tau do not adapt with bio-engineering, Kroot do. So the person who thought that they get that from the Tau, they had bio-engineering before Tau existed. Thanks for adding the links! That really helped. Now I did not read the Tau link but knowing Tyranids came before Tau I doubt that is where they got it from.

Thanks everyone (mostly) for supporting your statement!

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Why do people insist on tying Nid's to something in the galaxy. Why can't we just say they're an extragalactic species?

Totally agree!

The WH40K universe is small enough without having to tie the Tyranids into one of the other races.

I like the "Outside the galaxy" fluff, makes everything else seem so tiny and pathetic in comparison. Whats that Astartes? You can travel system to system? Pha, you can play with the BIIIG BOOOISZ! when you get GALAXY TO GALAXY!

Alas, the main fleets, which could destroy the galaxy with a glance, are stopped by a much greater power; GWs' reluctance at moving the storyline!!

The OP is right, IIRC, and it was so stated/suggested in Xenology (Black Library).

Xenology is an in-universe document that exhibits several biases to the Imperial point of view, and is fundamentally wrong on a number of other things. You can take it as accurate as a bit of real-world medieval literature on brain surgery.

Phonics wrote:


You sir have not read your fluff! Tyranid genestealers are not human derived. Am I supposed to believe Ymgarls, who had barely been in contact with humans, got their shape from them? If a genestealer infects a cat it is not cat derived. Thanks for the tyrant guard fluff though.

And you obviously weren't around for RT or 2e.

Check out 'Genestealer cult' on Lexicanum, they aren't all derived from humans, but some can be.

The biggest problem with this theory is like has been stated before if the tyranids even traveled between 10 galaxies with their relatively slow speeds then they would be far older than the war in heaven. They may infact be much older than the old ones themselves however we should actually see how fast they could travel this huge distance.

If they take 1 week to traverse from solar system to solar system (I think this is reasonable-ish please let me know if I am wrong) then that is a speed of 4.2 ly / 1 week so 0.219 kly per year. 2540 kly to andromeda so 11598 years from the nearest galaxy, Lets say that this is a rough medium as I am too lazy to do more math that this. +857 kly to traverse a galaxy so that would give say 12500 years to get to and consume a galaxy with little defense. This would mean the tyranids are at least 125 000 years old. If I remember correctly the war in heaven happened 60 million years ago so this is actually plenty of time. If however the flight speed goes down to light speed then the tyranids would have taken 3500 kly*10 or at least 35 million years to make the trip. Still a possibility.

So there is no hard evidence that can contradict this as GW is vague on the nids bg. I however much prefer extragalactic bug species that will eat the universe for my fluff.

Ok new theory. What if the Nids were created by the Emperor? Now before you skip ahead, hear me out. We all know that he was doing all kinds of wacky stuff in that basement of his. So what if as he was trying to perfect how to make Magnus he created a powerful Pyker almost the equal to him self. Only just banishing it to the warp, it spat it out in another galaxy. For the nearly 10,000 years it has been on it's mission to take revenge on it's father, all the while gathering minions to it's cause. Ok there is my two pence worth.

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
Ok new theory. What if the Nids were created by the Emperor? Now before you skip ahead, hear me out.

No.

Again, 12 galaxies.

Tyranids would be in the hundreds of millions... even billions of years old simply from travel time between a dozen galaxies at sublight speed. The Emperor was created by shamans during humanities tribal years on Earth.

Time. Time kills all of these theories.