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 -Loki- wrote:

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
Ok new theory. What if the Nids were created by the Emperor? Now before you skip ahead, hear me out.

No.

Again, 12 galaxies.

Tyranids would be in the hundreds of millions... even billions of years old simply from travel time between a dozen galaxies at sublight speed. The Emperor was created by shamans during humanities tribal years on Earth.

Time. Time kills all of these theories.

Everything and nothing is canon my friend.

MarsNZ wrote:

Phonics wrote:


You sir have not read your fluff! Tyranid genestealers are not human derived. Am I supposed to believe Ymgarls, who had barely been in contact with humans, got their shape from them? If a genestealer infects a cat it is not cat derived. Thanks for the tyrant guard fluff though.

And you obviously weren't around for RT or 2e.

Check out 'Genestealer cult' on Lexicanum, they aren't all derived from humans, but some can be.

What I mean by derived is that the hive mind took a creatures traits and made them into a unit (Ripper worms, zoanthropes, tyrant guards...).

 ansacs wrote:
The biggest problem with this theory is like has been stated before if the tyranids even traveled between 10 galaxies with their relatively slow speeds then they would be far older than the war in heaven. They may infact be much older than the old ones themselves however we should actually see how fast they could travel this huge distance.

So there is no hard evidence that can contradict this as GW is vague on the nids bg. I however much prefer extra galactic bug species that will eat the universe for my fluff.

There is one more issue with this - galaxies are really, really big places. Even if your speed theory is correct you need to take into consideration that they have to strip EVERY planet in the galaxy of life and galaxies like milky way have billions of planets, other galaxies even more. And if we add the possibility that Tyranids encounter opposition in every galaxy that only adds to number of years they needed to consume the entire galaxy.

So traveling + waging wars + consuming every planet i never star system in the galaxy of all life adds to this.

And there is info about Tyreanid Hive Fleet speed, in comic "Predator an Prey". They estimated that Tyranids would need seven years to reach nearest Imperial planet form the edge of the galaxy, so their means of travel seems even slower than you theorized.

It can take months for the Tyranids to reach an inhabited world once they've arrived in-system, as they can no longer use the grav-tunnel effect of the Narvhal.

Guys even at light speed it is 35 million years to travel between and across the 10 galaxies. Most planets are devoid of life and most of inner space is empty. The travel times are the largest times if the battles, etc. take even a tenth the time it would be like killing the enemy one at a time. The biggest limiting factor is if they have enough forces to hit and eat every planet simultaneously. If they do not then the number could get into the 50 millions years but that assumes no FTL.

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
Ok new theory. What if the Nids were created by the Emperor? Now before you skip ahead, hear me out.

No.

Again, 12 galaxies.

Tyranids would be in the hundreds of millions... even billions of years old simply from travel time between a dozen galaxies at sublight speed. The Emperor was created by shamans during humanities tribal years on Earth.

Time. Time kills all of these theories.

Everything and nothing is canon my friend.

That quote is regarding fluff being contradicted - pick the fluff you want. Tyranids eating 12 galaxies before ours is official fluff that hasn't been contradicted - in fact, it was the first time ever they even acknoldeged where the Tyranids came from.

So that fluff is canon, because nothing official contradicts it. Making up your own fluff to contradict it? There's a forum for that.

 -Loki- wrote:

That quote is regarding fluff being contradicted - pick the fluff you want. Tyranids eating 12 galaxies before ours is official fluff that hasn't been contradicted - in fact, it was the first time ever they even acknoldeged where the Tyranids came from.

So that fluff is canon, because nothing official contradicts it. Making up your own fluff to contradict it? There's a forum for that.

So we had better get this thread, or any other thread in relation to the origins of the Tyranids, moved across to there as well as that hasn't been established and any suggestion that anyone makes is fan fiction.

I'll sound the alarm.

It's still an investigation and discussion of the background, using what little information we have to formulate a theory.

If this lack of fluff annoys you that much, let me throw some into the mix.

Codex: Necrons wrote:The Race that would become the Necrons began their existence under a fearsome, scouring star, billions of years before mankind evolved on Terra

Codex: Necrons wrote:Necron Legions finally broached the webway and assailed the old ones in every corner of the galaxy

Ok so this one doesn't necessarily help, but it refers to the Old Ones that the Necrons killed, maybe there were others that manged to escape further?

If there were, they would be in another galaxy.

So the War in Heaven ended and the Necrons slept for 60 million years.

Codex: Necrons wrote:The Silent King's final command to his people was that they must sleep for 60 million years

So we know that the Old Ones died at least 60 million years before present day, if the Old Ones did create the Tyranid then they would have to be at least 60 million years old.

Maybe the Tyranids were created by the Old Ones after Bio Transference as a last ditch attempt at destroying the Necrons, to at least gain a stalemate. If we can't win then no one will so to speak.

Codex: Necrons wrote:Having encountered Tyranids in the intergalactic void, he recognises the threat they pose to the Necrons' apotheosis - If the Tyranids devour all life in the galaxy, the Necrons will never find living bodies ...

Intergalactic, so did the Necron travel between galaxies themselves?

Codex Tyranids wrote:The Tyranids are not native to our Galaxy. They have travelled through the bleak intergalactic space between galaxies for countless millennia

Codex Tyranids wrote:It is possible that the Tyranids have been preying on Galaxies since time Immemorial and ours is the but the latest to feel it predations

60+ million years is time immemorial for the Imperium as it didn't exist back then.

60000 millenia is also pretty countless, unless you have lots of fingers.

The necrons already knew about the tyranids. If they did, how big was the necron empire? Does this mean there are tomb worlds in other galaxies?!

OT: I think the old ones made them as a last minute weapon to utterly destroy (digest) necrons so they could not be repaired. Even if they teleport away I don't think that shoulder that ripped off is coming with them.

On another note: The necrons have a "invasion of the body snatchers" vibe now.

And finally: The galaxy thing is an estimate! You cannot ask a gaunt how many galaxies his hive fleet has eaten!

Phonics wrote:
The necrons already knew about the tyranids. If they did, how big was the necron empire? Does this mean there are tomb worlds in other galaxies?!

No, the Necrons only found out about the Tyranids after they were reawakened by the Silent King.

Phonics wrote:
OT: I think the old ones made them as a last minute weapon to utterly destroy (digest) necrons so they could not be repaired. Even if they teleport away I don't think that shoulder that ripped off is coming with them.

As I suggested, making the point that without life in the Galaxy, the Necrons would never find new organic host forms.

 Manchu wrote:
It would make more sense if the Old Ones banished the Tyranid once the Necrontyr were contained but before they discovered the C'Tan. The Old Ones were masters of the Warp, they could have sent the Nids milennia distant. The nids meanwhile could have been on their way back ever since.

I don't see it as more interesting than nids being true "outsiders" to our galaxy but I guess it's not impossible.

It could be that the old ones also inhabited other galaxies, and simply creadted the nids in a nearby one, to use as auxiliaries if everthing went to gak, like it is now.

The OP noted that the 'nids do also consume metal to add to biomass. It's true that living organisms use metals (Lots of elements are metals), and one great example is that red blood cells use iron.
It may be possible for 'nids to use necrodermis in their bio-matter, but that would be some serious bio-engineering. Given the nature of necrodermis (sentient metal), I'd guess that there would be some serious issues with using it.
If it was usable, however I'd hazard a guess that it would be used to reinforce the structure of their hive ships.

As for 'nids dodging necron planets atm, they could have just looked at them and decided that the cost would be greater than the reward. It would be a fair assumption to make that the old ones started on the nids before they knew about necrodermis.

I think the idea of trying to wrap our heads around a race that is described as "the shadow in the warp".

I think the idea of secrecy contributes to their horror and makes them by far the scariest race out there by our standards.

As to where they came from? considering the number of galaxies in our universe, I can only imagine the amount of galaxies in the 40K universe all inhabited by dangerous species. I also personally like the sense of dread contributed by a race far more dangerous than nids that is chasing them out of their home turf, though this is unlikely.

I feel like nids are the embodiment of the fear that we have developed of extraterrestrials invading earth. Movies like "Mars Attacks", "Independence Day", "War of the Worlds", etc. are examples of this. In the context of 40k, the 40k galaxy is like our real world Earth, and the extragalactic nid invasion is like the extraterrestrial martian invasion in "Mars Attacks".

As far as their origins go, the vibe that I get is evolution. On Earth, we trace our lineage back to primates and even weird little fish things. Who knows where the nids came from, to discover that we would probably have to find the galaxy from which they originated. The important thing is how they evolved to where they are now, invading from the edge of the galaxy and consuming all(most) in their path.

Hmm...
-Tyranids are a reptillian/bug race who are capable of genetic selection (NOTE: Not genetic manipulation, they choose what traits from the gene pool are used, but don't create new ones without eating some new DNA).
-They started off in another galaxy.
-They can travel bloody fast using a bio-mechanical gravity drive (how does that even work?).
-Their numbers could be measured in the hundreds of quadrillions.
-They can hunt biomass from hundreds of thousands of lightyears away.
-They are capable of creating a stable "OMNOMNOM" bio matter recycling system that can last them through the void between galaxies.

They would have needed to develop their space travel abilities before they even began to get off-world...

In theory, these guys should eat themselves to death before even reaching the next planet. [But let's leave that logistic behind for a while]

The first question really should be: How the bloody hell did the nids get into space in the first place?

If we can answer that, we'll have solved a lot of questions.

 Psienesis wrote:
Xenology is an in-universe document that exhibits several biases to the Imperial point of view, and is fundamentally wrong on a number of other things. You can take it as accurate as a bit of real-world medieval literature on brain surgery.

You sound like one of those people who got real uspset about Tau having toes.

I believe he was refering to the stone tablet that shows the Old Ones creating all the different 40k races with song.

That was a stone tablet that predated the imperium. There is no bias there.

 DeffDred wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Xenology is an in-universe document that exhibits several biases to the Imperial point of view, and is fundamentally wrong on a number of other things. You can take it as accurate as a bit of real-world medieval literature on brain surgery.

You sound like one of those people who got real uspset about Tau having toes.

I believe he was refering to the stone tablet that shows the Old Ones creating all the different 40k races with song.

That was a stone tablet that predated the imperium. There is no bias there, except from whoever wrote it.

Fix'd that for ya

Phonics wrote:
The necrons already knew about the tyranids. If they did, how big was the necron empire? Does this mean there are tomb worlds in other galaxies?!

OT: I think the old ones made them as a last minute weapon to utterly destroy (digest) necrons so they could not be repaired. Even if they teleport away I don't think that shoulder that ripped off is coming with them.

On another note: The necrons have a "invasion of the body snatchers" vibe now.

And finally: The galaxy thing is an estimate! You cannot ask a gaunt how many galaxies his hive fleet has eaten!

The Necrontyr once ruled the entire galaxy. They were the undisputed masters of the stars. After defeating the Old Ones and then the C'Tan, the Silent King sailed out into Dark Space, ran into the Tyranids, then turned around and came back to the Milky Way. He didn't run into them *in* the Milky Way.

Necrons leave next to nothing behind when they Phase Out. Blown off bits, lost weapons, scrap metal... it all vanishes. The Old Ones did not create the Tyranid. If they did, then Trazyn would probably have one noted in his collection.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
So we had better get this thread, or any other thread in relation to the origins of the Tyranids, moved across to there as well as that hasn't been established and any suggestion that anyone makes is fan fiction.

I'll sound the alarm.

We know enough to discount the crackpot theories that come up in these kinds of threads. Quite simply travel between and consumption time of a dozen galaxies makes them too old to have anything to do with anyone in this galaxy. They're extragalactic, not created by anything or anyone in the Milky Way.

That's the point I was triyng to make. Any time someone pops in with 'I think the Emperor made them...' or 'They're being chased by the missing legions...' or 'They're The Outsiders forces....' or 'They were made by the Old Ones...' or any other theory can simply be put aside from that one line of official fluff - 'With the barren husks of a dozen galaxies behind them...'.

That is not fan made. That is official. That discounts pretty much any theory about something in the Milky Ways current power struggle not using time travel being the driving force behind the race

I don't know why it's acceptable in the background section of the fluff to make thread after thread of pure fan fiction about the Tyranids, when any other race it would be shot down and/or locked in an instant, but it certainly gets irritating. I'd love nothing more than have a discussion thread about Tyranids that didn't turn into speculative fan fiction wars, but it just doesn't happen, whereas for any other army it would be unacceptable.

celestialhost wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Why do people insist on tying Nid's to something in the galaxy. Why can't we just say they're an extragalactic species?

Totally agree!

The WH40K universe is small enough without having to tie the Tyranids into one of the other races.

Because they want them to be Zerg, and Zerg were made by the same ETs who made Protoss (Starcraft's version of Eldar).

MarsNZ wrote:

Phonics wrote:


You sir have not read your fluff! Tyranid genestealers are not human derived. Am I supposed to believe Ymgarls, who had barely been in contact with humans, got their shape from them? If a genestealer infects a cat it is not cat derived. Thanks for the tyrant guard fluff though.

And you obviously weren't around for RT or 2e.

Check out 'Genestealer cult' on Lexicanum, they aren't all derived from humans, but some can be.

Genestealer cults are humans derived from genestealers. You cannot say that Genestealers are derived from humans using that fact. Genestealers can infect almost anything to make a hybrid, just like facehuggers. You don't say that Xenomorphs are derived from humans just 'cause the monster from Alien happens to be identical to xenomorphs that don't have human hosts, do you?

The monster from alien came from a human though...

And the Predator-Alien hybrid created a whole new strain of Aliens...

So did the dog-based Alien in Aliens 2 though. Identical to the Alien from the original, but from a totally different host.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
So did the dog-based Alien in Aliens 2 though. Identical to the Alien from the original, but from a totally different host.

I think it was slightly different... It's pretty much implied in the whole Alien universe that the xenomorph do get some traits from the host.

But that doesn't mean that genestealers are 'derived' in any significant way from humans. The first few generations of cultists, yeah, but they aren't proper genestealers. Genestealers uses their host to gradually infect a target population without being discovered. Xenomorph uses their host as the final stage of their incubations.

As for any creation theories, not only everything advanced here makes no sense whatsoever with the fluff, but it would seriously reduce my liking of Nids if any of them happened to be made official. Nids need to remain unexplained and unfathomable.

 -Loki- wrote:

We know enough to discount the crackpot theories that come up in these kinds of threads. Quite simply travel between and consumption time of a dozen galaxies makes them too old to have anything to do with anyone in this galaxy. They're extragalactic, not created by anything or anyone in the Milky Way.

That's the point I was triyng to make. Any time someone pops in with 'I think the Emperor made them...' or 'They're being chased by the missing legions...' or 'They're The Outsiders forces....' or 'They were made by the Old Ones...' or any other theory can simply be put aside from that one line of official fluff - 'With the barren husks of a dozen galaxies behind them...'.

That is not fan made. That is official. That discounts pretty much any theory about something in the Milky Ways current power struggle not using time travel being the driving force behind the race

I don't know why it's acceptable in the background section of the fluff to make thread after thread of pure fan fiction about the Tyranids, when any other race it would be shot down and/or locked in an instant, but it certainly gets irritating. I'd love nothing more than have a discussion thread about Tyranids that didn't turn into speculative fan fiction wars, but it just doesn't happen, whereas for any other army it would be unacceptable.

And I provided some background for you that could at least support the theory. We know that they Old Ones created certain races to assist in their battles with the C'tan and Necrontyr. These quotes I provided to you are also official and not fan made, they also support that the Tyranids are old and the Necrons and the Old Ones could be just as Old, if not older. The name 'Old Ones' seems to be a dead give away.

If ansacs maths is correct, which I dunno, who can work out this stuff for real anyway, the that leaves 10 million years of eating and warring for the Tyranids to be doing.

Codex Tyranids wrote:The Tyranids are not native to our Galaxy. They have travelled through the bleak intergalactic space between galaxies for countless millennia

Codex Tyranids wrote:It is possible that the Tyranids have been preying on Galaxies since time Immemorial and ours is the but the latest to feel it predations

Codex Necrons wrote:The Silent King's final command to his people was that they must sleep for 60 million years

The majority of those crackpot theories are that, and I agree with you, but I think there is enough here to at least make it a possibility..

I don't necessarily believe it to be true, but I find it interesting and am open for discussing it.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Because they want them to be Zerg, and Zerg were made by the same ETs who made Protoss (Starcraft's version of Eldar).

Not having played any of the Starcraft games, I refute this claim and find this statement rather silly. I like my 40k 40k and not some wannabee imposter.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

As for any creation theories, not only everything advanced here makes no sense whatsoever with the fluff, but it would seriously reduce my liking of Nids if any of them happened to be made official. Nids need to remain unexplained and unfathomable.

And I agree, but does that mean we cannot discuss and investigate possibilities because we don't know about them? There are supposedly a 1000 Chapters of Astartes, most we don't know about. Should we not then created our own ones in case we make something that someone doesn't like?

There's no "possibilities" to investigate given the current background of the Tyranid. GW can, of course, release new information that renders old invalid, but that's not the current situation. The Old Ones were fine with doing their thing until they ran into the C'Tan and the war started. The Necrons got involved because they were subjugated by the C'Tan, and could follow the Old Ones into the Web-Way, which the C'Tan could not do.

At no point during this war were the Old Ones in a position to create the Tyranid, as the race provides nothing that the Eldar and the Krork don't already bring to the battle. Once the War in Heaven ended, there were no Old Ones left to create anything, the C'Tan had all be sharded or cast down, and the Silent King was feeling rather gakky about the whole thing. He goes on a trip, runs into the Tyranid, turns around and flies back. However, this encounter is not in pre-history, but in M41. By this point, the Tyranid were already on their way towards the Milky Way... and you can figure that, for a guy who once ruled an empire that dominated the galaxy, you would think he would have heard about these interstellar bug-things at some point in 60 million years.

 Psienesis wrote:
were no Old Ones left to create anything

Can you evidence this? I don't think there is anything that says ALL the Old Ones were killed, just that they were defeated enough for the necrons to no longer fight them.

They were noted as being immortal, and possessing great technologies. What's to stop part of their race moving off into another galaxy?

Selym wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
were no Old Ones left to create anything

Can you evidence this? I don't think there is anything that says ALL the Old Ones were killed, just that they were defeated enough for the necrons to no longer fight them.

They were noted as being immortal, and possessing great technologies. What's to stop part of their race moving off into another galaxy?

Tyranids. They were scary enough to make the Silent King turn tail, why not a race the Silent King could pound to submission?

Codex: Necrons (5th), Xenology (ugh) and Liber Chaotica indicate that those Old Ones who survived the War in Heaven were either hunted to extinction, chopped up into a million bits and cast into the cold void by Slaanesh, or degenerated into a number of lizard-like races, forfeiting their wondrous abilities in the process.

 Pilau Rice wrote:


And I agree, but does that mean we cannot discuss and investigate possibilities because we don't know about them? There are supposedly a 1000 Chapters of Astartes, most we don't know about. Should we not then created our own ones in case we make something that someone doesn't like?

No. This is why I said Nids need to remain unknown and unfathomable. There are no possibilities, no avenue of investigation that will not result into making Nids crappy.

 Psienesis wrote:
Codex: Necrons (5th), Xenology (ugh) and Liber Chaotica indicate that those Old Ones who survived the War in Heaven were either hunted to extinction, chopped up into a million bits and cast into the cold void by Slaanesh, or degenerated into a number of lizard-like races, forfeiting their wondrous abilities in the process.

Well, there isn't a full list of what races were created by the Old Ones, and what they were doing during the period that they had retreated to their bastions before they were exterminated or for that matter after they had initially defeated the Necrons in the early wars, before their alliance with the C'tan.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:


And I agree, but does that mean we cannot discuss and investigate possibilities because we don't know about them? There are supposedly a 1000 Chapters of Astartes, most we don't know about. Should we not then created our own ones in case we make something that someone doesn't like?

No. This is why I said Nids need to remain unknown and unfathomable. There are no possibilities, no avenue of investigation that will not result into making Nids crappy.

Your opinion, which of course you're entitled too.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:


And I agree, but does that mean we cannot discuss and investigate possibilities because we don't know about them? There are supposedly a 1000 Chapters of Astartes, most we don't know about. Should we not then created our own ones in case we make something that someone doesn't like?

No. This is why I said Nids need to remain unknown and unfathomable. IMO, there are no possibilities, no avenue of investigation that will not result into making Nids crappy.

Fix'd

So this is what it's like to lose control of your thread....