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If they did that it would open up new imperial codex options.
Eight non human and four human. You could have all the branches.

I must say, the current number of marine dex's is a little much, and isn't neccessary.

I've played Dark Angels, and have tried a mate's Blood Angels army a few times, and while they're fun, they don't all deserve their own books. That being said, a single "every marine" codex would be unwieldy, and with GW prices, it'd be like $120.

That being said, so much of these codexes is effectively information repeated; Dark Angels Greenwing is just codex marines, but cheaper, most of the Blood Angels army is codex marines with some special rules, like red thirst and descent of angels, and Grey Hunters and Long Fangs are just tacs and devs but much better, with some special rules and cheaper.

They really don't need their own books, and could be handled like customization was handled in so many 4th ed books. All you'd need is sections for each of the various marine variations, so if you choose to play Blood Angels or their successors, you get all their special rules, Sanguinary Guards and Priests, Death Company, Baal Predators and their special characters, and lose some of the codex options, like vanguard vets, sternguard, Storm Talons, etc.

The same system works pretty easily for other chapters, it just is predicated on the need for a bigger, more comprehensive Marine codex. I don't want to eliminate the unique elements of Blood Angels, Dark Angels and so on, but how many hardcover entries for Tactical Marines, Devastators, Scouts, Predators, Land Raiders and so on?

To be frank, the Traitor Legions are more deserving of different codexes than Blood and Dark Angels (those two irk me the most, I can understand the argument for BT and SW, but those two really are just Marine +1), and, to be frank, the more new players are exposed to non-MEQ armies the better.

 Peregrine wrote:

 pwntallica wrote:

*warning, the following paragraph contains some extremism, and does not reflect the views of the poster*
As far as just making the codex bigger to accommodate all the different rules, and just letting marine players foot the bill, well why don't we just do that with everyone then. Stuff Demons back into the C:CSM dex. Put Eldar and Dark eldar into one dex simply seperated buy fluff and units. Heck the argument could go on and on until it worked out that we just had two mega dexes. Who cares about fluff, I just want my dex updated faster, forget everyone else. Lets just have one big $200 dex for IoM, and another $200 one for xenos. Then everyone would get their book updated every two years. Obviously this is an exaggeration, but I mean it could be done. Would I like it, no, and I doubt many others would.

That's completely missing the point. The problem here is very simple:

Marine armies are 90% the same. You start with a core of tactical/devastator/assault/terminator squads and then add in a few army-wide special rules and maybe a special unit or two. Obviously you can do more than this and make, say, long fangs special instead of just generic devastators, but that is NOT something inherent to the concept of long fangs. Long fangs could be represented perfectly well by a standard devastator squad painted in SW colors. The only reason to give them their own special rules is that you've decided you want to have another marine codex and you need to add different rules for the sake of having different rules. Therefore it would be very easy to combine most (or even all) of the marine armies into a single book. Just like White Scars function just fine as C:SM with a special character BA would function just fine as C:SM with a special character (or a generic "BA Captain" HQ choice).

Non-marine armies are NOT 90% the same. For example, there is pretty much zero overlap between Tau and Tyranids, and a combined Tau/Tyranid codex would just consist of the two separate books stapled together. Same with trying to put IG and C:SM into the same "IoM" codex. It's no longer about cleaning up redundancy and making the game more efficient, it's combining things just for the sake of having fewer (but heavier and more expensive) books.

I think it is you who missed the point of the section you quoted. I added and underlined the part you missed.

I don't find the different marine books to be 90% the same. Do they have similarities, yes. Stat lines on their basic stuff. But even points, special rules, war gear, and FoC vary per unit. I wonder how many people claiming they are all the same actually own and/or have read/played even a single marine dex (and no, a quick read through a store copy or a questionably obtained digital one does not count), let alone different ones. I have, and from my experience, they vary and feel/play differently. I physically own and have played 9 different books from different editions and each of the different chapters (although I do always go back to C:SM and DA), they are different.

What a lot of people seem to be missing is it is not just "I can take terminators as troops, now I'm DA" or "My assault marines are troops because I'm BA". There are a bunch of other, sometimes more subtle, and even overlooked differences, these are just the ones that stick out most to non marine players. It wouldn't be as simple as squish all the unique units into the C:SM dex, and sprinkle a few characters for each codex that gives them a different chapter tactics. Yes you could do that, but people who have been spending time and money for years would probably not appreciate the lack of diversity their army now has.

To cram all that in one book would make the book bigger (and hence cost more) and/or dumb down the varying other armies, possibly even invalidating units/builds. Would it be fair to Ultra marine players to pay more for their codex? It's not their fault other people wanted to cram the other marines into their book. If they have no interest in the other chapters, well they are paying extra for nothing. Would it be fair to a player who had been collecting their army for years (or decades) to have some of their models/units useless or sub par because people feel their army is more important? Well I own at least one of every DA unit that is not in the SM codex, I have a friend who plays both BA and BT, and he has lots of pretty much everything. There is no way you could fit all that in one book, without making it three times bigger, and also making at least some of those models scrap.

Clearly people aren't going to ever agree on this, since it is one of the most reoccurring topics I have ever seen. Bottom line, GW will probably never dump their cash cow/most popular releases into one stub of a release. It would make no business sense to do so.

But if you do the two book opetion means you can include the one or two units that are truly unique to each chapter as a tack on option to the list that is drawn from the main book similar to how they did the 3rd edition pamphlets. You unlock them by selecting a particular option from a list of Chapter Tactics and limit the choices to one of these Chapter Tactics choices like they do in the Current 5th Edition Marine Codex.


So if I'm Blood Angels I can trade the standard Chapter Tactics out for the Blood Angel one which grants Furious Charge and allows you to take Assault Marines as troops and adds Death Company as a Troop choice. Want Dark Angels switch out Chapter Tactics and you get units with Stubborn. White Scars and look we have Hit and Run. Salamanders Twin Linked Flamers and Melta, Master Work Thunderhammers. Raven Guard units gain Fleet. Iron Hands units gain Bionics and have a natural 6+ Invulnerable save. Imperial Fists gain bolter drill for all units. Templars gain the advance when they fail morale.

Each unit could receive one or two signiture units to go with them and the choice of Chapter is no longer tied to a special character which saves characters to play with the force chart allocations. Want Deathwing take the Dark Angels Chapter Trait and than Captain of the 1st Company Special Character allows Termies as troops instead of elites. Ravenwing are the signature unit for the army in the fast slot and Master of the Ravenwing turns them into troops.

It solves the problem of redundant unformation being printed accross several codex and means that GW can update all the marine armies at the same time and keep them all competetive hopefully meaning consistent sales accross all lines instead of seeing spikes and valleys as the new books are realeased and people jump to the new flavour of the month.

It also means that design studio's time is opened up so we can have all armies updated with in the life span of an edition which would help those armies as they get the new codex sales spike and start adding more armies with out adversly affect the realease schedule. Want Squats there's now a hole to fill in the realeas schedule. Adaptus Mechanicus we now have a space for you. Always loved the Kroot Mercenaries list from White Dwarf, guess what we have time to develope it. Genestealer Cults welcome back to relevance. All optoions that can increase sales for GW and add extra options for players which should never be a bad thing.

I am very disheartened that the community at large wants to get rid of my BTs.....hopefully GW doesnt feel the same.

 Vladamyr wrote:
I am very disheartened that the community at large wants to get rid of my BTs.....hopefully GW doesnt feel the same.

Again: we don't want to get rid of them, we want them to have current, up-to-date rules. And most effective way to do that is to include them in the big, flexible marine codex. Things that make BT unique should be retained.

None of them. GW is belting out Codexes at a pretty good clip now, and I would feel bad for any hobbyist that spent tons of time putting together a (insert variant Chapter here) army, only to be told that a bunch of their units were invalidated because they had been rolled back into the Vanilla 'Dex. While I don't want to see any more Chapter (or Legion) codexes added, the ones that we have now aren't hurting anything.

2 Codices to Rule Them All (All Them Marines, that is).

One book, hardback, Codex: Space Marines of the Imperium, covers all loyalist Space Marines and includes rules for building your own Chapter. Has ~300 pages, retails for $150.

One book, hardback, Codex: Space Marines of the Traitor Legions, covers all Chaos Space Marines, as well as Renegades, and includes rules for building your own Traitor Warband. Has ~300 pages, retails for $150.

more codexes is better,

more SM codexes is old and boring, so not that Id see any taken away,

buuuuttt.....
Id rather see things like guard regiments, eldar craftworlds,
mechanicum, rouge trader/cult/genestealer cult type armies get new codexes then the latest flavour of marine.

my genestealer cult army is still crying....

 Vladamyr wrote:
I am very disheartened that the community at large wants to get rid of my BTs.....hopefully GW doesnt feel the same.

I got to break it to you, check out the GW website, the BT do not have their own entry on the army list, they are at the bottom of the SM entry, i dont know if its been like that, but im sure its not a good sign. They dont even warrant their own sidebar, and BA, DA, and SW all got their own, and all the shared SM units are simply reposted there.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/landingArmy.jsp?catId=cat440176a&rootCatGameStyle=wh40k

 schmoozies wrote:
But if you do the two book opetion means you can include the one or two units that are truly unique to each chapter as a tack on option to the list that is drawn from the main book similar to how they did the 3rd edition pamphlets. You unlock them by selecting a particular option from a list of Chapter Tactics and limit the choices to one of these Chapter Tactics choices like they do in the Current 5th Edition Marine Codex.


So if I'm Blood Angels I can trade the standard Chapter Tactics out for the Blood Angel one which grants Furious Charge and allows you to take Assault Marines as troops and adds Death Company as a Troop choice. Want Dark Angels switch out Chapter Tactics and you get units with Stubborn. White Scars and look we have Hit and Run. Salamanders Twin Linked Flamers and Melta, Master Work Thunderhammers. Raven Guard units gain Fleet. Iron Hands units gain Bionics and have a natural 6+ Invulnerable save. Imperial Fists gain bolter drill for all units. Templars gain the advance when they fail morale.

Each unit could receive one or two signiture units to go with them and the choice of Chapter is no longer tied to a special character which saves characters to play with the force chart allocations. Want Deathwing take the Dark Angels Chapter Trait and than Captain of the 1st Company Special Character allows Termies as troops instead of elites. Ravenwing are the signature unit for the army in the fast slot and Master of the Ravenwing turns them into troops.

It solves the problem of redundant unformation being printed accross several codex and means that GW can update all the marine armies at the same time and keep them all competetive hopefully meaning consistent sales accross all lines instead of seeing spikes and valleys as the new books are realeased and people jump to the new flavour of the month.

It also means that design studio's time is opened up so we can have all armies updated with in the life span of an edition which would help those armies as they get the new codex sales spike and start adding more armies with out adversly affect the realease schedule. Want Squats there's now a hole to fill in the realeas schedule. Adaptus Mechanicus we now have a space for you. Always loved the Kroot Mercenaries list from White Dwarf, guess what we have time to develope it. Genestealer Cults welcome back to relevance. All optoions that can increase sales for GW and add extra options for players which should never be a bad thing.

Something like this could be done. They could make a second book to do DA, BA, and BT. They used to have something similar in second with BA/DA, it was called Angels of death (I swear I have that book here SOMEWHERE!). But putting them all in one book with vanilla SM wouldn't work. It also couldn't be something like "take hq x and now you're BA and can take assault marines as troops".

It could work if say for DA, in that book was something like: "If you are playing Dark Angels you make take the following:" All the unique DA characters, the Da unique special rules, and their unique units (fliers, speeders, RW units, and DW units), and then had something like "you may also take Space marines, scouts, devastators, predators, ect... from codex Space Marines at the cost listed using their regular force organization slots". Then have something like "if you select unit x from Codex space marines, it may take upgrade y for point value z".
Then do the same for BA and BT. They just need to make sure they don't leave out any of the units/rules/characters ect.

This solution would probably work, if done correctly. There are a few issues though. First, GW would have to wait until 7th, as they just had DA release. They would also have to wait until after the 7th ed C:SM codex, since it would be dependant on that. Another issue would be that for people playing BA, DA or BT would now have to pay twice as much to play their army. Now I need to pay $120 to play my army. Not an issue for me as I play both C:SM and DA, but my BA/necron playing friend is out an extra $60. Although this option is more fair than the pricier cost of the mega single dex for players who only play with the vanilla dex. Another problem is the number of books I need to carry. Now I need the BRB, C:SM, AND CA/BA/BT.

The other thing to consider is how much of a difference did that really just make. This book would be about the same size as a normal codex, and would basically be combining 3 books into 1. meaning they would have two less books to update in order to do them all. At the current rate of codex release, you're only saving about 4-6 months. Is it really that big of a deal to make all this fuss out of waiting a few months either way? And yes they release SM codex almost every other release, but the repetition probably aids in the process, meaning every other release takes less work.

In the future, I wouldn't mind a well executed compromise like this. But I still don't feel like it would be the huge difference some people make it out to be


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
2 Codices to Rule Them All (All Them Marines, that is).

One book, hardback, Codex: Space Marines of the Imperium, covers all loyalist Space Marines and includes rules for building your own Chapter. Has ~300 pages, retails for $150.

One book, hardback, Codex: Space Marines of the Traitor Legions, covers all Chaos Space Marines, as well as Renegades, and includes rules for building your own Traitor Warband. Has ~300 pages, retails for $150.

The price tag alone on such a book is why this idea is a sound no. If I'm only playing ultra marines, why should I have to pay triple for my codex? With tax, that's just under $300 per edition for BRB and codex.

 Peregrine wrote:
Marine armies are 90% the same. You start with a core of tactical/devastator/assault/terminator squads and then add in a few army-wide special rules and maybe a special unit or two. Obviously you can do more than this and make, say, long fangs special instead of just generic devastators, but that is NOT something inherent to the concept of long fangs. Long fangs could be represented perfectly well by a standard devastator squad painted in SW colors. .

Your a smart guy Peregrine, and normally your spot on. In this case I think your off.

The space marine codexes (BA, SW, C:SM, GK) are not 90% alike.
Take a look at the SW codex. Thunderwolves, really good 'tactical squads', assault bikes, and devastators that can split fire. They can have terminators in TAC squads, and have to decide to bring wolf guards or grab that extra special weapon.
The BA codex is more than just 'assault marines as troops. There is a variety of units in there that are unique to the army. In the way it plays its very aggressive in its playstyle.
The GK codex is not like any of the other C:SM codex's. All the models have storm bolters and force weapons. You often see multiple psydreads, and coteaz's imperial henchman brigade.

Those 3 can not be folded into C:SM without having major issues to the playstyle. Its not just 'adding a few units to C:SM' or 'tweaking the rules' unless you want to get rid of what makes those armies play so differently.

BT/DA are a different story.
DA don't have many special items unique to their chapter (yea, knights, the DJ speeder, and crap flyers). You could duplicate the ravenwing/deathwing with 2 special characters. The rest of the stuff is not needed.
BT has just a special character type. This could be completely rolled into C:SM in the next release.
DA will not be rolled up though. Releasing a new codex was a comittment to keep them in their own codex for at least a few years.

I say just keep things as is. I play DA and really like having my own codex. I know someone who plays salamanders and wishes they had their own codex. It offers more variety in units, wargear, and special rules. Plus with the clip that the dexs are coming out at the amount of them isn't a problem.

 pwntallica wrote:

Something like this could be done. They could make a second book to do DA, BA, and BT. They used to have something similar in second with BA/DA, it was called Angels of death (I swear I have that book here SOMEWHERE!). But putting them all in one book with vanilla SM wouldn't work. It also couldn't be something like "take hq x and now you're BA and can take assault marines as troops".

It could work if say for DA, in that book was something like: "If you are playing Dark Angels you make take the following:" All the unique DA characters, the Da unique special rules, and their unique units (fliers, speeders, RW units, and DW units), and then had something like "you may also take Space marines, scouts, devastators, predators, ect... from codex Space Marines at the cost listed using their regular force organization slots". Then have something like "if you select unit x from Codex space marines, it may take upgrade y for point value z".
Then do the same for BA and BT. They just need to make sure they don't leave out any of the units/rules/characters ect.

This solution would probably work, if done correctly. There are a few issues though. First, GW would have to wait until 7th, as they just had DA release. They would also have to wait until after the 7th ed C:SM codex, since it would be dependant on that. Another issue would be that for people playing BA, DA or BT would now have to pay twice as much to play their army. Now I need to pay $120 to play my army. Not an issue for me as I play both C:SM and DA, but my BA/necron playing friend is out an extra $60. Although this option is more fair than the pricier cost of the mega single dex for players who only play with the vanilla dex. Another problem is the number of books I need to carry. Now I need the BRB, C:SM, AND CA/BA/BT.

The other thing to consider is how much of a difference did that really just make. This book would be about the same size as a normal codex, and would basically be combining 3 books into 1. meaning they would have two less books to update in order to do them all. At the current rate of codex release, you're only saving about 4-6 months. Is it really that big of a deal to make all this fuss out of waiting a few months either way? And yes they release SM codex almost every other release, but the repetition probably aids in the process, meaning every other release takes less work.

In the future, I wouldn't mind a well executed compromise like this. But I still don't feel like it would be the huge difference some people make it out to be

Sort of, though there's no reason to wait until after C:SM 7 comes out. I mean, entire armies have gone 2+ entire editions of the game without an update, so there's no reason why this should wait.

Schmoozie basically spelled out how I would write it, though on reflection, I might break the Loyalist SM into 2 different Codices. Codices: Codex Adherent and Codex: Special Snowflakes (or something). In the one, you get all the Chapters that adhere to the Codex Astartes. In the other, you get all the Loyalist Chapters that don't. In either case though, at their cores, all SM Chapters are the same: Space-Monks in Power Armor. Stats-wise, the Marines of one Chapter are the same as the Marines of another, the only thing that really changes (from a tabletop perspective) is some war-gear choices and some SRs that apply to one Chapter but not to another. These variations do not justify 90-page books for each Chapter.

The price tag alone on such a book is why this idea is a sound no. If I'm only playing ultra marines, why should I have to pay triple for my codex? With tax, that's just under $300 per edition for BRB and codex.

Because you just got like 9 Codices in one, and if you ever want to play another Chapter, you can. You don't even need to buy new models, just repaint the ones you have.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Take a look at the SW codex. Thunderwolves, really good 'tactical squads', assault bikes, and devastators that can split fire. They can have terminators in TAC squads, and have to decide to bring wolf guards or grab that extra special weapon.

I stated from the beginning that SW are arguably unique enough to deserve a full codex, but remember what I said about the current specific rules not being the same as the fundamental concept of the army? Things like devastators that can split fire aren't in any way inherent to the concept of "Space Wolves", you could easily make a new codex that removed the ability and nothing fluff-wise would be lost.

The BA codex is more than just 'assault marines as troops. There is a variety of units in there that are unique to the army. In the way it plays its very aggressive in its playstyle.

There's a variety of units, but few, if any, of them have any reason to exist. For example, death company are just a nasty assault unit, they don't need their own special rules. You can represent them just fine by using the vanguard veterans rules, painting their armor black, and calling them death company in your fluff. The role in the army rules-wise will function exactly the same way. And the same is true for pretty much everything else "unique" about BA, it's special rules made for the sole purpose of filling an entire codex rather than something essential to representing a BA army properly on the tabletop.

The GK codex is not like any of the other C:SM codex's. All the models have storm bolters and force weapons. You often see multiple psydreads, and coteaz's imperial henchman brigade.

True. GK are different, but I already said that I would kill off GK as a separate codex and replace them with an entry in an allies supplement. GK are supposed to be a tiny elite, deployed only in special situations, not a full army fighting everyday battles.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:There is no reason for them to be rolled in to the vanilla book.

... because almost everything that made them unique, ruleswise, are ways in which they're no longer unique. Basically, black templar get the "move when you shoot me" thing, and the ability (if not ever practically exercised) to take more than your usual amount of land raiders.

Now that everyone can take BT-patterned land raiders and land speeders, and can take drop pods, and can challenge, well... there's not much point to them anymore. They could just be regular space marines with interesting fluff, and a "move when you shoot me" chapter trait.

Moreover, sort of their schtick was that they were a fast, close-combat-oriented space marine army. Since their codex came out, we've gotten our current incarnations of space wolves, grey knights, and blood angels. BT have just simply been made redundant.

The important difference is that DA did it first. F-Miko Quote: page 2-5 comments from bottom
Actually the Ultramarines did....historically speaking. Codex angels of death was published released after Codex: Ultramarines.

in respect to armies of terminators..... bike armies etc. 2nd edition didn't have a FOC that defined a strict measure of balance, that is the only reason they decided to do 3rd edition btw..... before the release of AOD, they (DA/BA) only featured as a few pictures in the colour section of Codex: Ultramarines. and before that in Codex: space marines (or was it Imperial Marines....so long ago now)....
you are right that they were the first "themed" seperate of vanilla codex marines, but sadly other than that DA are generic marines the same with the other legions.

 Orkimedes1000 wrote:
The important difference is that DA did it first. F-Miko Quote: page 2-5 comments from bottom
Actually the Ultramarines did....historically speaking. Codex angels of death was published released after Codex: Ultramarines.

And Space Wolves were out before Ultramarines. Dark Angels and Blood Angels were the last variant Space Marine chapters of 2nd edition.

1. The Codex being priced beyond belief (like they aren't with special editions and all, btw a codex now in AUD cost $80, i collect, or have in the past 9 different chapters, do i want to pay $80 each hell no)
2. the Complaints that GW is price gouging again and making you pay for codex parts you don't wanna play (much like the codex's on offer, ie in particular generic space marines and other chapters not deemed elite enough to gain a seperate codex)
3. Armies look different BA have a very distinct look so do GK and DA and BT, So solution they sell bits boxes separately to "customize" your look (GW sells bits for most of their SM legions, so not really an issue here)
4. option 3 leads to complaints that GW is Price gouging again (these bits boxes wouldn't come cheap I'm sure, presently they are increasing stock price, so really what is different here????)
5. with everyone having access to all SM chapters the strongest one would likely ALWAYS get played at tourneys etc. leading to even more SM Cheese complaints (i am sure they already do that at tournaments)

is there anything that doesn't read "you don't like it" and are "grabbing at straws" and trying to find reasons of why this is a bad idea?
because
1. it might peeve off player
2. GW makes less money (like that'd be a problem, they increase price and do 57 second animation promotionals. they cost money you know. guess who foots the bill? you do thats who. the end user/consumer)
3. repeat option 1 & 2 rinse and repeat.

the only reason i suggested (originally) this as an idea to be played with because what happens if you collect 12 armies for warhammer 40k, are you prepared to either
1. cut down on collecting until your new Dex is released (and wait for all those shiny new releases by which time it'll be next edition and a whole set of changes example is edition to edition some units become obsolete)
2. stop playing those armies

and lastly 3. this would/could clarify a few things, they could release a new codex imperialis. scrap all codex's and use a Beastiary system similar to 4th edition fantasy battle, in one book have rules in other have pictures/bg fluff. if it worked for GW in the past why wouldn't it work now (beside the fact you may lose privilege of owning your own book? well you still could, and more beside) again this is an idea, it is not concrete, nor has it been implemented into 40k. so relax and enjoy the commentory. Absolutely last thing: increased price $130 is acceptable for a massive dex. they charged $140 for god specific chaos codex....where is the exact difference ?????


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ loki: and codex space marines (RT book) came out before space wolves is there a point your making? the SW did come out before Codex UM sure, but they didn't make models for them until 2nd edition. in RT they showed generic space marines. it was only much later (and a different edition of rules) that the SW actually became a skeleton of what we know of them today. DA/BA/SW were the ONLY variants. until UM showed pictures of models cs from people in the studio's armies. really there is no Actual point to keep them in seperate books beside personal preference and that you don't want to share your codex with another legion's.

All loyalist marines could be released in two books... it won't ever happen, but it should.

 Psienesis wrote:
Has ~300 pages, retails for $150 and Has ~300 pages, retails for $150.

I hope you're being sarcastic, it's difficult to tell. Good luck getting new players to spend $150 on a book before they can even use their $150 of models.
I know I'd never spend $150 on a book.

you need to add a "roll into one" option. Get a SM codex that was like Chaos 3.5 dex Oh man that was an Amazing Codex.

 Ninjacommando wrote:
you need to add a "roll into one" option. Get a SM codex that was like Chaos 3.5 dex Oh man that was an Amazing Codex.

If by "amazing" you mean "convoluted and broken in more than one way" then yes.

generalchaos34 wrote:

 Vladamyr wrote:
I am very disheartened that the community at large wants to get rid of my BTs.....hopefully GW doesnt feel the same.

I got to break it to you, check out the GW website, the BT do not have their own entry on the army list, they are at the bottom of the SM entry, i dont know if its been like that, but im sure its not a good sign. They dont even warrant their own sidebar, and BA, DA, and SW all got their own, and all the shared SM units are simply reposted there.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/landingArmy.jsp?catId=cat440176a&rootCatGameStyle=wh40k

DA didn't have their own sidebar until they were updated, BA didn't have their own sidebar until they were updated, SW didn't have their own sidebar until they were updated. By all means, though, more doom and gloom, I'm sure we don't get enough of that as it is...

Personally there are far too many imperial books for my liking. I count 9 Imperial (including BT) vs 8 'Alien' (and one of those are ex-imperials...)

This is suppose to be a vast galaxy full of alien terror and new and disturbing grimdark. WHERE ARE MY ALIENS DAMMIT?!

Back on Topic: I'd have no problem having all SMs bar Grey Knights and CSM (for obvious reasons), rolled into one bumper flufftastic codex. I mean they are all the same at there core.

 labmouse42 wrote:

The space marine codexes (BA, SW, C:SM, GK) are not 90% alike.
Take a look at the SW codex. ... really good 'tactical squads', assault bikes, and devastators that can split fire...

Personally, I think this is a strong argument for rolling them together. There's no reason that only one marine chapter should have effective 'tactical squads', nor that only one marine chapter should be allowed to split a unit's fire.

 Redbeard wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

The space marine codexes (BA, SW, C:SM, GK) are not 90% alike.
Take a look at the SW codex. ... really good 'tactical squads', assault bikes, and devastators that can split fire...

Personally, I think this is a strong argument for rolling them together. There's no reason that only one marine chapter should have effective 'tactical squads', nor that only one marine chapter should be allowed to split a unit's fire.

My only worry was if they were all put in one book - you'd see all marines using them all the time.

You could end up with things like Long fang spam, with split fire, ablative wounds and fnp from a sanguinary priest.
Grey hunters wouldn't just be for the space wolves, everyone would have them.

Armies made of the cheapest troops, with the most abusive special character rules.
The normal sm dex is enough 'fun' - fighting Lysander/Kantor/Vulcan/Calgar at the same time etc - now add all the rest of the unique units like Logan Grimnar, Mephiston, Baal predators, Deathwing Knights

I think it would be a good codex to play with, but there would be so many spam builds/abusive lists that people would bring.

I think they should be kept separate, but traits would be a nice addition (as in 4th)
Then they wouldn't have to clamp down with so many loopholes - balance would be easier.

I like that not all marines have the same options - it limits the amount of rune priests

PredaKhaine wrote:

My only worry was if they were all put in one book - you'd see all marines using them all the time.

You're assuming that they'd take everything they currently have and just put it together in the exact same way it is now, and that's not the way to do this. The right way to do it is to actually charge points for things that have a beneficial ability, and then make them available.

For example:
How are Long Fangs able to split fire? It's an ability granted to them by their squad leader. Devastators have squad leaders too. What if that ability cost 15 points? 10? I dunno the right cost for it offhand, but it's clearly worth something. If you get that cost correct, it's no longer an auto-take, it's a choice, it's a tradeoff for what works for the army being designed. (In fact, you could take this a step further, and allow any Sgt to take this ability, thereby allowing Rocket Guy to fire at a tank, while the other 9 guys with bolters lay down some bolter fire on enemy troops.) The idea that only one chapter, in the entire Imperium, figured out that not every single marine had to shoot at the same target is kind of ridiculous.

BT has needed an update for eight years. Other chapters got their updates in the interim and were fleshed out to stand apart from the UM book. BT just sat there. Its as simple and obvious as that, and stating the difference between chapters just boils down to who got updated in 5th/6th. GW taking the time to take our core concept, tweak points, and add new units and tactics would have the same effect as the updates for BA and DA had (who were more or less C:SM with a couple small tweaks). The numerous posts Ive read stating "I dont see why BT couldnt be rolled, theyre just an EC and casualty movement" obviously havent done their homework and probably shouldnt be arguing with the people who actually have a clue.

BT has a book, and the fans want to keep it. End of story. GW practically owes it to use after all this time collecting dust. Lumping into the UM book with a couple chapter traits, to me, is quite frankly insulting. Not to mention Im insulted whenever I read a post suggesting my army become redundant, when I have spent countless dollars and time into something I love.

Im surprised at this website, when a mod can start a thread that (when monitoring General and seeing similar threads pop up every month) will knowingly get the unpopular army trashed and start 4 pages of argument in a day.

 Redbeard wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:

My only worry was if they were all put in one book - you'd see all marines using them all the time.

You're assuming that they'd take everything they currently have and just put it together in the exact same way it is now, and that's not the way to do this. The right way to do it is to actually charge points for things that have a beneficial ability, and then make them available.

For example:
How are Long Fangs able to split fire? It's an ability granted to them by their squad leader. Devastators have squad leaders too. What if that ability cost 15 points? 10? I dunno the right cost for it offhand, but it's clearly worth something. If you get that cost correct, it's no longer an auto-take, it's a choice, it's a tradeoff for what works for the army being designed. (In fact, you could take this a step further, and allow any Sgt to take this ability, thereby allowing Rocket Guy to fire at a tank, while the other 9 guys with bolters lay down some bolter fire on enemy troops.) The idea that only one chapter, in the entire Imperium, figured out that not every single marine had to shoot at the same target is kind of ridiculous.

It used to be everyone could shoot what they liked with whoever they liked in 2nd ed. A 2000pt game took about 3 days (for us anyway )

So rather than a single 'ultramega' codex detailing your options, you're thinking more of an army 'creater', choosing rules that best fit your chapter. I like the idea, it's similar to the traits system from 4th ed.
If you broke it down into points per ability/upgrade that would cost a lot of points to get everything, so it might even out.

I guess my point is I have more faith in WAAC players finding ways to abuse rules than GW making it tight enough to stop them. But hey, whats new

I'd still play against it.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Im surprised at this website, when a mod can start a thread that will knowingly get the unpopular army trashed and start 4 pages of argument in a day.

You are the one who is trying to get that ball rolling so please quit it.