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Not to mention that much of the playerbase already treats marines as one big book anyway, simplifying things for those that do.

I think the Imperial Fists should get a codex or maybe the Salamanders? It has to be one that already has a character in the vanilla marine codex.

 Peregrine wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
No, I claimed Dark Angels weren't very far ahead of Vanilla, you called that "nonsense" and then backed it up with the very stuff that Dark Angels are supposed to be better at. Good job. Yes, that means that if you want to play a Terminator army you'd be better off with Dark Angels, but that's the entire point. There's stuff that Vanilla does that no one else does as well. As long as the variant Marine Codices don't become "Vanilla +1" (which I completely agree Space Wolves and to a lesser extent Blood Angels were in 5th) there's no such WAAC factor, which is why I brought up Dark Angels as an example. They're different without being better in every single way.

That's a nice theory. Unfortunately reality disagrees with you and "my 'custom chapter' that always uses whatever the newest and most overpowered marine list happens to be" is the popular "WAAC" way of playing marines.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what you quoted. Try reading what I'm saying next time?

I also don't see the WAAC bandwagon jumping ship to Dark Angels in massive numbers, so I think you'll find that you're the one that reality disagrees with.

 Melissia wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Apparently you seem to forget the whole bit about CSM's being a 110% different force in terms of looks, playstyle and story from their loyalist brethren?

Hmm, you might have a point.

Looks: They're Space Marines with spikes.
Playstyle: They're Space Marines with some extra mutations.
Story: They're Space Marines who are mad at their dad.

Wait, no, you don't have a point.

Eh, not really. There's still the cult marines and marines with Marks. Chaos also shouldn't be able to use some things in a SM army, and they should have corrupted and demonic units. There's a lot of different wargear as well. You'd have to say that a CSM unit/character/whatever can't take this, but they can take this, and that no SM can't take this, but they can take the other stuff. You'll need many pages to describe what's different between Space Marines and CSM. Plus, since the Horus Heresy, they don't really share much of the same fluff. It's just easier to put them in a different codex.

Personally I would have two Space Marine Codexes

The Codex Marines - similar to the present one and one that represents all of the "others" so Space Wolves, Blood and Dark Angels etc.

I'd keep Chaos seperate.

Its clear that other non Marines can be hugely successful - especially with a relaunch - Dark Eldar, Necrons and likely now Tau means that the "Marines are the only thing that sell" argument holds very little water.

Having many slightly different coloured marines with some desperatly thrown together and dire looking flyers is a waste of the designers time.

You could indeed roll the Dark Eldar together - with a light / dark theme - but they are radically different- far more so than Marine Chapters and don't use the same equipment, looks, or even basic vehicles.

 schmoozies wrote:

Wilytank wrote:What are you benefits of having a combined codex anyway?

You free up a lot of design studio time to work on other projects (Sisters, Genestealer Cult, Lost and Damned, etc.) and can control the power creep that new Marine books always lead to.

There's plenty of ways to counter Marines, it's not that difficult. Any new army book has some worry moments at first at the new threats posed (see new Tau), but after a while the strategies on how to beat them will start showing up and it won't be as bad. Meanwhile, older books will always appear as new books get released be they Sisters or Black Templars or even Vanilla Marines.

And Lost and Damned? Seriously? A book that hasn't seen the light of day since 1st edition? People say Chaos Marines are not at all dissimilar to regular Space Marines, but Renegade Guardsmen are extremely different from the Imperial Guard codex?

And Genestealer Cult? Where did that even come from? Are there actually large numbers of people anxiously awaiting these books?
ers of people anxiously awaiting these books?

People want genestealer cult armies to ally with nids - so Nids can have guard shooting power too.

Having said that, I'd love to fight against a genestealer cult army again. Haven't played against that since 2nd ed iirc.

I'd rather see Genestealer Cult than another slightly different Marine book

Plus:

Sisters of Battle
Adeptus Mechanicus - so so much to be done here IMO
Imperial Allies
Xenos Allies and Mercenaries

 Wilytank wrote:


And Lost and Damned? Seriously? A book that hasn't seen the light of day since 1st edition? People say Chaos Marines are not at all dissimilar to regular Space Marines, but Renegade Guardsmen are extremely different from the Imperial Guard codex?

And Genestealer Cult? Where did that even come from? Are there actually large numbers of people anxiously awaiting these books?
ers of people anxiously awaiting these books?

Or you know the Lost and the Damned list that appeared in the Eye of Terror Campaign. Yes it would feature traitor guard fairly heavily, but you also get other choices like Beastmen, ans some more diverse cultist options.

Genestealer cults were a viable army in 2nd edition and have been completly ignored by the design studio since. There are several fan dexs out their for them, and one even made it to print in the old Citadel Journal so yes I'd say their is interest.

Plus if you don't llike those options fine how about Ad Mech. Its one of the most commonly requested factions that gets no love. Or the triumphant return of the Squats updated and retooled to get rid of the more silly aspects of the old model range and bring in the astetic that they established with the Epic releases.

Jon

 schmoozies wrote:

Or you know the Lost and the Damned list that appeared in the Eye of Terror Campaign. Yes it would feature traitor guard fairly heavily, but you also get other choices like Beastmen, ans some more diverse cultist options.

Take Beastmen models and kit bash them into cultists in the current Chaos Marine codex. They'll look awesome to boot.

 Mr Morden wrote:
I'd rather see Genestealer Cult than another slightly different Marine book

My argument isn't for more Marine books; it's against cutting the ones that already exist.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Plus:

Adeptus Mechanicus - so so much to be done here IMO
Imperial Allies
Xenos Allies and Mercenaries

Do the Adeptus Mechaicus even have a playable army besides Titans? You don't see a whole lot of fluff about the Secutors doing conquest.

And what are you trying to say about allies? The BRB already covers that.

 schmoozies wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:


And Lost and Damned? Seriously? A book that hasn't seen the light of day since 1st edition? People say Chaos Marines are not at all dissimilar to regular Space Marines, but Renegade Guardsmen are extremely different from the Imperial Guard codex?

And Genestealer Cult? Where did that even come from? Are there actually large numbers of people anxiously awaiting these books?
ers of people anxiously awaiting these books?

Or you know the Lost and the Damned list that appeared in the Eye of Terror Campaign. Yes it would feature traitor guard fairly heavily, but you also get other choices like Beastmen, ans some more diverse cultist options.

No you really don't. Lost and the Damned was Guard with Chaos Marines.

I have Codex: Eye of Terror sitting right in my hands. I can also tell you that the people who I have played against who used C: EoT used it exactly in that way. Guard with Chaos Marines.

Genestealer cults were a viable army in 2nd edition and have been completly ignored by the design studio since. There are several fan dexs out their for them, and one even made it to print in the old Citadel Journal so yes I'd say their is interest.

Ignored with good reason. They're not a "real" army. They're Guard with some Tyranid units.

Plus if you don't llike those options fine how about Ad Mech. Its one of the most commonly requested factions that gets no love. Or the triumphant return of the Squats updated and retooled to get rid of the more silly aspects of the old model range and bring in the astetic that they established with the Epic releases.
Jon

You're NEVER going to see the Squats. Ever. Let them rest in peace.

Ad Mech is the same as Lost and the Damned or the Genestealer Cults:
They can easily be proxied using existing rulebooks.
Given that GW/BL/FW can't even make up their mind about what Skittari are (some descriptions are that they're cybernetically enhanced Guardsmen who retain their mental faculties while others have them being nothing more than Servitors without the grafted weapons), there's a bit of difficulty in finding the right book.

Well, if Genestealer Cult are just Guard with Tyranid units, at least allow it to happen in the rules!

Experiment 626 wrote:
The only thing Chaos Marines & Loyalist lapdogs have in common are;
a) being 'Space Marines'

Well aside from simply BEING Space Marines, they are also looking like space marines, acting like space marines, playing like space marines, and generally do everything a Space Marine does, just slightly different from other colors of space marines.

You know the old saying-- if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, etc, it's a fething duck. Stop trying to claim the Chaos Space Marine army is not an army of Space Marines. It's just... sad.

But I'm pretty sure people don' t play Chaos Marine because they wanted to play Vanilla Marines. They wanted to play Chaos Marines.

They really don't play like Space Marines at all. Marks, daemon weapons, Obliterators, Cult troops, icons, demon engines etc. isn't different enough for you?

 Wilytank wrote:
But I'm pretty sure people don' t play Chaos Marine because they wanted to play Vanilla Marines. They wanted to play Chaos Marines.

Just like Blood Angels or Dark Angels or Black Templars or Space Wolves or Grey Knights:

"Space Marines, but different!"

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
They really don't play like Space Marines at all. Marks, daemon weapons, Obliterators, Cult troops, icons, demon engines etc. isn't different enough for you?

Space Marines with a few spiky toys and mutations is still just "Space Marines, but different!"

Hell, I'm not even arguing that C:CSM should be removed. I'm arguing that people should stop treating Codex: Chaos Space Marines as if it's not an army of Space Marines. It's in the fething name, get over yourselves already.

 Melissia wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
But I'm pretty sure people don' t play Chaos Marine because they wanted to play Vanilla Marines. They wanted to play Chaos Marines.

Just like Blood Angels or Dark Angels or Black Templars or Space Wolves or Grey Knights:

"Space Marines, but different!"

And the problem is...what?

 Wilytank wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
But I'm pretty sure people don' t play Chaos Marine because they wanted to play Vanilla Marines. They wanted to play Chaos Marines.

Just like Blood Angels or Dark Angels or Black Templars or Space Wolves or Grey Knights:

"Space Marines, but different!"

And the problem is...what?

The problem is people are trying to claim Chaos Space Marines aren't an army of Space Marines.

 Melissia wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
But I'm pretty sure people don' t play Chaos Marine because they wanted to play Vanilla Marines. They wanted to play Chaos Marines.

Just like Blood Angels or Dark Angels or Black Templars or Space Wolves or Grey Knights:

"Space Marines, but different!"

And the problem is...what?

The problem is people are trying to claim Chaos Space Marines aren't an army of Space Marines.

So what? They can play whatever codex they want and call them whatever they want. Leave these people alone.

 Wilytank wrote:
So what? They can play whatever codex they want and call them whatever they want. Leave these people alone.

Stop attacking a straw argument-- I didn't say they should stop playing CSMs.

I only insist that the Chaos Space Marine army is an army of Space Marines.

Sorry. It just doesn't seem like a legit argument to drop the codexes given that's the topic of this thread. That's what I was going by.

 Wilytank wrote:

 schmoozies wrote:

Or you know the Lost and the Damned list that appeared in the Eye of Terror Campaign. Yes it would feature traitor guard fairly heavily, but you also get other choices like Beastmen, ans some more diverse cultist options.

Take Beastmen models and kit bash them into cultists in the current Chaos Marine codex. They'll look awesome to boot.

 Mr Morden wrote:
I'd rather see Genestealer Cult than another slightly different Marine book

My argument isn't for more Marine books; it's against cutting the ones that already exist.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Plus:

Adeptus Mechanicus - so so much to be done here IMO
Imperial Allies
Xenos Allies and Mercenaries

Do the Adeptus Mechaicus even have a playable army besides Titans? You don't see a whole lot of fluff about the Secutors doing conquest.

And what are you trying to say about allies? The BRB already covers that.

The Adeptus Mechanicus have vast standing armies incorporating speclialist infantry, heavy weapon platforms, vechicles, they fight wars on their own - both amongst themselves, against invaders and as part of explorator fleets. They are more likely to be encountered by Xenos and Imperials alike as a large coherent force than most Marine Chapters or indeed the Tau........

Allies - I meant operatives and Imperial/ Xenos organisations that can be used as allies/ auxillaries by forces - so pirates, mercenaries, Judges, Church, etc

Ad Mech is the same as Lost and the Damned or the Genestealer Cults:
They can easily be proxied using existing rulebooks.

And you can't proxy the various Marine Chapters in the same way? Bit of a strawman argument

At least the Ad Mech can have hugely different models rather than slightly different number of skulls or different coloured armour.

 Wilytank wrote:
Sorry. It just doesn't seem like a legit argument to drop the codexes given that's the topic of this thread. That's what I was going by.

As I've said SEVERAL times now, that isn't what I was arguing. Actually read the posts you're responding to instead of responding to bizarre fantasies.

I tend to think of it like this:

C:SM is the "standard" by which we measure divergence.

C:CSM is the most divergent SM book. C:GK is the second most divergent SM book.

Then you get into rating C:BA, C:BT, C: DA, and C:SW in terms of divergence.

I rate them as follows, from least to most divergent from C:SM -- not necessarily just as a matter of how they currently are but also as a matter of how different they ought to be given the fluff:

C:BA
C: DA
C:SW ties with C:BT

Explanation: If C:SM is the standard then that means the standard is really Codex Astartes. SW and BT never did more than create a bad illusion that they cared about Codex Astartes. In fact, BT were arguably founded in protest of Codex Astartes. It's pretty obvious to anyone that these chapters do not give a crap about following the Codex and exist pretty much as they did (for the BT, as the IF did) before and during the HH. Meanwhile, the BA try their best to strictly adhere to the Codex even though their flaws mean they simply can't comply 100%. Similarly, the DA cultivate the appearance of compliance and their non-compliant features are centered on their secret objectives.

By this logic, the DA and especially the BA are the chapters that should most likely be folded into C:SM.

But that's not really the logic that actually lands a dex, I think.

Shrug.

I could probably manage folding all of them in to a single codex, but I think it'd be better to just leave Space Marines as is-- just ignore them for a while and focus on everyone else, delivering a few Imperial Guard codices (could very easily include tons of variety here, even if it's just a supplement that gives additional rules for other regiment types), variant Ork and Tyranid codices (Feral Orks for example, and perhaps a Pacificus strain that has developed new tactics and absorbed/created new breeds), a separatist Tau codex (because why the hell not, can always change the fluff to suit the codex), etc., to expand the non-Space Marine fluff. Then after all the SM codices(yes, this includes CSM, who are still just SMs of another color) are ignored for a few years and everyone else is brought up to snuff so that non-SM armies outnumber SM armies at least two to one, then finally they can get back to occasionally updating an SM army as well. You'd still have your marine favoritism, but everyone else would have more variety as well, making it have much less of an impact than it currently does.

But then again I'm apparently an donkey-cave who wants to destroy all Space Marines because I'm posting in this thread, so what do I know about my own goddamned opinions and beliefs on how this should be done.

 Melissia wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
But I'm pretty sure people don' t play Chaos Marine because they wanted to play Vanilla Marines. They wanted to play Chaos Marines.

Just like Blood Angels or Dark Angels or Black Templars or Space Wolves or Grey Knights:

"Space Marines, but different!"

And the problem is...what?

The problem is people are trying to claim Chaos Space Marines aren't an army of Space Marines.

They are indeed space marines.

I mean they still share the statline, but at the very least they can contribute to actual, different things to include within it compared to "Slightly less orthadox chapter Number 2"

Course then again I want all my CSM to stop being renegades and start coming forth with boltguns mutated with the powers of the warp! I want Eldar vs DE level changes here.

 psychadelicmime wrote:
Cut grey knights and replace it with codex inquisitors, or something along those lines.

Been there and done that...was supposed to be 3 books: Daemonhunters, Witchhunters and Alienhunters. The concept failed so miserably by Witchhunters that Alienhunters never happened.

It is a shame because I really enjoyed the flexibility in the Daemonhunters and Witchhunters books.

Skriker

 Melissia wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
But I'm pretty sure people don' t play Chaos Marine because they wanted to play Vanilla Marines. They wanted to play Chaos Marines.

Just like Blood Angels or Dark Angels or Black Templars or Space Wolves or Grey Knights:

"Space Marines, but different!"

And the problem is...what?

The problem is people are trying to claim Chaos Space Marines aren't an army of Space Marines.

No one is arguing that Chaos Marines are not strictly speaking evil "Space Marines."

What's idiotic is the argument that Chaos Marines should be folded into a giant Codex Space Marines book, because other than their basic name, basic statline and a few bits of genralist gear + 4 vehicles, they share absolutely nothing in common with Codex Space Marines and are in fact a highly unique army.

 Melissia wrote:
Shrug.

I could probably manage folding all of them in to a single codex, but I think it'd be better to just leave Space Marines as is-- just ignore them for a while and focus on everyone else, delivering a few Imperial Guard codices (could very easily include tons of variety here, even if it's just a supplement that gives additional rules for other regiment types), variant Ork and Tyranid codices (Feral Orks for example, and perhaps a Pacificus strain that has developed new tactics and absorbed/created new breeds), a separatist Tau codex (because why the hell not, can always change the fluff to suit the codex), etc., to expand the non-Space Marine fluff. Then after all the SM codices(yes, this includes CSM, who are still just SMs of another color) are ignored for a few years and everyone else is brought up to snuff so that non-SM armies outnumber SM armies at least two to one, then finally they can get back to occasionally updating an SM army as well. You'd still have your marine favoritism, but everyone else would have more variety as well, making it have much less of an impact than it currently does.

But then again I'm apparently an donkey-cave who wants to destroy all Space Marines because I'm posting in this thread, so what do I know about my own goddamned opinions and beliefs on how this should be done.

So, you want GW to ignore it's main cash cow that in essence helps to fund every other army?

You do realise that;
a) That'd be a super dumb move, even by GW's standard.
b) Only Codex Space Marines themselves get regular updates. BA's waited roughly 9 years for an update, GK's held out for 8 years, SW's waited 7 years, DA's went roughy 6 years, while Templars are now standing at over 8 years and counting!
So really, all these so-called special snowflake Chapters tend to wait at least as long and sometimes longer than most Xenos books for an update!

The other main reason why Marines get a codex for 'X/Y/Z' special chapters; they'd be hienously OP if everything was kept to a single book, unlike Xenos who can easily fit most of their various themes/subfactions within the confines of 1 book.
Feral Orks for example only need Boarboyz, Madboyz & Squiggoths added back into their book and they're perfectly doable. Likewise, the only thing Eldar really need are a few new Character options to pull some FOC shinanigans + Wild Rider & Black Guardians options and all the Craftworlds are back. Ie: add a new option for a Court of the Young King which then allows you 1 Troop Aspect per Exarch in the Court = Biel Tan. (ie: each Banshee Exarch allows for a unit of Banshees to be taken as a Troops choice)
Guard simply need a few optional Combat Doctrines to be added back into the Command Squad option, whereas Tyranids just need some general re-balancing and the inclusion of the Genestealer Patriarch + Genestealer hybrids.

On the other hand, trying to balance a book with all the individual specialty Chapter units would be an utter nightmare, especially to put into practice with the massive amount of exceptions/restrictions & clarifications you'd need.

Experiment 626 wrote:
No one is arguing that Chaos Marines are not strictly speaking evil "Space Marines."

Actually, that's exactly what they are arguing.

Experiment 626 wrote:
So, you want GW to ignore it's main cash cow

Yes.

Unashamedly so. Their profit is not my concern when making this suggestion. I'm not even convinced that Space Marine focus was started for financial reasons to begin with. But that discussion is not relevant to this thread.

Experiment 626 wrote:
unlike Xenos who can easily fit most of their various themes/subfactions within the confines of 1 book.

Marines could, too.

Orks in the lore have FAR more variety than Space Marines. So do the Imperial Guard and Tyranids. If IG, Tyranids, and Orks manage to have everything in one codex despite being the three most highly variable factions in the game, it's certainly possible for such a highly limited and dogmatic faction as Space Marines to all be stuffed in a single book.

Hell, Space Marines can't even really function in most situations without the help of the Imperial Guard.

 Melissia wrote:
Hell, Space Marines can't even really function in most situations without the help of the Imperial Guard.

But then what does that have to do with anything?