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You know, while the rest of the world makes themselves all scared because it's exciting to get scared, even over something as silly NK firing nukes at the US... I'm disappointed to see gamers taking it seriously. You've all played Civilisation. North Korea is that pissweak nation that keeps interupting your march towards Stealth Bombers by declaring war, even though they only just got Pottery because you gave it to them out of pity.

 Frazzled wrote:
I would not waste one US life for SK.

NK nukes 1 spot the US is related to. US nukes NK away from the planet's surface. The end.

You'll flee from a vague and very implausible nuclear threat because American life is too precious to waste? And what was your position on Iraq again?

Anyhow, this look like this week's thread on while I'm immensely relieved Fraz will never be President.




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 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
What air defense?

Seriously, do they own many planes at all?

They have a 1980s era Mig the Russians gave them.


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 Mr. Burning wrote:
8000 tubes of various caliber

1 million active personnel.
8 million or so reservists.

50 airfields in various states of use Along with underground Shelters for most aircraft.

A couple of thousand APC's.

Plenty of SAM's.

And a populace that could be whipped into a rabid, entrenched defensive state in no time.

A strike should cripple NK's nuclear ambitions but would only harden the regiemes grip on their people. Ditto a strike against sites that could target the US and her allies.

The regime is teetering on the edge. The people know they exist in a state of terrible poverty compared to the rest of the world. Far from having the problem of having to dig out millions of reservists willing to fight to the death, the problem is one of handling millions of refugees looking to escape a totalitarian regime that just collapsed.


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 CptJake wrote:
I am curious what sources you base your analysis on.

From the statements and reports of Asian foreign policy experts, coupled with anecdotes from friends who've visited the country.


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Relapse wrote:
One thing to remember in this, also, is the historical precedant of people seeing their homeland attacked and springing to it's defense in spite of an oppresive government. A good example of this is Russia during WW2 after Stalin had already starved millions to death and killed millions others in camps or purges.

Actually partisan activity in the occupied territories was negligible, almost irrelevant, in the early stages of the war. Many welcomed the Nazis are liberators. It was only when the reality of Nazi occupation and their own brutality became apparent that we saw meaningful partisan activity.

And there's also the issue that while we think of North and South Korea as two different countries... well that isn't the case in the minds of most Koreans. And while the US and its airpower is essential to the rapid destruction of the conventional NK army, the boots on the ground work will be done by South Korean troops. That isn't occuption by a tyrant, that's reunification after a couple of generations of rule under tyrants.

Bit latwe to the party. In the OP's link it says something that made me lol.

South Korea wrote:There is no unusually activity in the North

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

No, they got a satellite into orbit successfully. The US confirmed it. This has to be like the third time I've told you when you've posted something similar.

This was my first post in this thread, WTH are you talking about?

They put a satellite into low orbit after how many failed attempts? A satellite that isn't even stable and so they can't communicate with it... That doesn't exactly scream "precision missile strike capability" to me it rather seems to indicate that they got lucky this one time.

Also, reports indicate that they can't fit their nuclear weapons in their cruise missiles, so all this scaremongering is about some conventional warheads in their hypothetical cruise missiles? Didn't Saddam have those back in 91? Isn't SK's and Japan's missile defence systems at least the equal of what the US gave Saudi Arabia and Israel back then?

This is just another "bird flu crisis" designed to scare the general public into watching the nightly news and buying the morning paper. As long as the good guys don't do something stupid and get China involved, NK can't do anything more than sabre rattling...

You are confusing 'cruise missile' with the ICBM types the norks are trying to fit a nuke to. They are very different in function and design.

As long as the good guys don't do something stupid and get China involved, NK can't do anything more than sabre rattling...

If you call shelling an island and capping a few folks, and sinking a ROK warship sabre rattling... I suspect they actually could do more if they wanted to.

 sebster wrote:
You know, while the rest of the world makes themselves all scared because it's exciting to get scared, even over something as silly NK firing nukes at the US... I'm disappointed to see gamers taking it seriously. You've all played Civilisation. North Korea is that pissweak nation that keeps interupting your march towards Stealth Bombers by declaring war, even though they only just got Pottery because you gave it to them out of pity.

You mean that pissweak nation with powerful friends who have an interest in keeping them as a buffer to shield a border?

 CptJake wrote:
You are confusing 'cruise missile' with the ICBM types the norks are trying to fit a nuke to. They are very different in function and design.
.

And those don't work as well as their cruise missiles. Which as we've established, don't.

 CptJake wrote:

If you call shelling an island and capping a few folks, and sinking a ROK warship sabre rattling... I suspect they actually could do more if they wanted to.

Yep, that is exactly what I call shelling an island with conventional artillery and sinking a RoK CORVETTE with a torpedo.

It requires quite a bit of speculation to go from those capabilities to being able to fire nuclear tipped missiles thousands of kilometres away...

PhantomViper wrote:
This is just another "bird flu crisis" designed to scare the general public into watching the nightly news and buying the morning paper. As long as the good guys don't do something stupid and get China involved, NK can't do anything more than sabre rattling...

Sort of but not really. The threats to the US are comically overstated (not only are the missiles capable of reaching the US not capable of carrying their nuke warheads, but there is a massive difference between a rocket with that range and one capable of being able to be reliably guided over that distance - in the scheme of a rocket travelling across the Pacific even LA is a precise target).

But that doesn't mean North Korea is incapable of causing serious damage. Just with conventional weapons they've got thousands of artillery pieces and rocket batteries capable of hitting Seoul and killing god knows how many.

There is a real threat and a real concern here, even if the 'OMG Americans are in danger' reporting in some American news is stupid.


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 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
You mean that pissweak nation with powerful friends who have an interest in keeping them as a buffer to shield a border?

No, I don't, because that'd require pretending Chinese policy towards North Korea is the same as it was in the 1970s.

At this point China's primary interest is in the status quo, because they don't want a refugee crisis on their border. And they can't be blamed for that, anyone would act the same.

I currently live and work in Seoul, South Korea.

The first thing I would point out is that any time lil kim mouths off and threatens anyone, the media runs with the ball of panic. My general policy is to become worried when and if the S. Korean friends and co workers around me do. Till then I refuse to waste energy with useless worry.

Yes, the North has done some very unfortunate stunts in the last few years. The island shelling and the sinking of the "Cheonan" naval vessel for example. I visited the memorial exhibit for the crew of the Cheonan. The really sad part was that of the 46 sailors who died in the attack, most were in their early twenties. S. Korea requires all men over 18 to serve two years in the armed forces so they were essentially legal conscripts in a manner of speaking. With all respect, the crew looked to be mostly recent high school graduates.

The news has reported every time a U.S. ship or plane moves around and every whisper they hear from the North. The only thing that has changed situation wise in daily life is that a few places (such as police stations) have been running extra tactical drills in full Korean swat uniforms with assault rifles. Also, in Seoul, some train lines have begun showing cartoon war propaganda psa videos on their trains.

I can't predict what's going to happen any more than anyone else but I really do doubt that anything more than posturing will happen. I hope for peace. Enough people already died here the last time around.

Just watched the Vice Guide to North Korea. While I'm skeptical about anything said by Shane in the video (the whole tunnel thing and NK seemingly able to rolfstomp the South at any time, or his opinion on their schooling system), it's still cool to see the interactions with the people.

Yes, they seem crazy. But I still think it's not the kind of crazy that you should be scared of, more the kind you should pity.

Here for the first part :

 sebster wrote:

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 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
What air defense?

Seriously, do they own many planes at all?

They have a 1980s era Mig the Russians gave them.

What? That much? I thought that they dropped boiling oil from tall towers, or at the most dropped big rocks from hot air balloons.

Now with Kaesong closed...I feel we're one step closer. NK just cut its very own economy and now we're seeing missile defense units brought to SK.

China continues to be a state of evil themselves and remain lethargic despite being the state with the biggest potential influence on the slowed part of Korea.

Just saw on the TV that the official NK media says the NK military has been authorized to use Nuclear weapons. whatever that means can't be good.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gpuimXzka5inwGnL0c9vZsbQ54fw?docId=CNG.4eb43e27607cb9d4be6b952b88ddefeb.01

SEOUL — North Korea dramatically escalated its warlike rhetoric on Thursday, warning that it had authorised plans for nuclear strikes on targets in the United States.

"The moment of explosion is approaching fast," the North Korean military said, warning that war could break out "today or tomorrow".

Pyongyang's latest pronouncement came as Washington scrambled to reinforce its Pacific missile defences, preparing to send ground-based interceptors to Guam and dispatching two Aegis class destroyers to the region.

Tension was also high on the North's heavily-fortified border with South Korea, after Kim Jong-Un's isolated regime barred South Koreans from entering a Seoul-funded joint industrial park on its side of the frontier.

In a statement published by the state KCNA news agency, the Korean People's Army general staff warned Washington that US threats would be "smashed by... cutting-edge smaller, lighter and diversified nuclear strike means".

"The merciless operation of our revolutionary armed forces in this regard has been finally examined and ratified," the statement said.

Last month, North Korea threatened a "pre-emptive" nuclear strike against the United States, and last week its supreme army command ordered strategic rocket units to combat status.

But, while Pyongyang has successfully carried out test nuclear detonations, most experts think it is not yet capable of mounting a device on a ballistic missile capable of striking US bases or territory.

We're playing Nuclear chicken from the looks of things.

They can't be serious....

Do they know they are playing nuclear roulette with the wrong country?

Not to insult anyone, but I don't even think the NK knows a nuke from their elbow.

As for playing nuclear chicken/roulette, well, their in for a hell of a fight. USA is the only country to use a Nuke in warfare, unless I'm severely lacking a major part of my Cold War history specification. Not only did they use it, but they used it twice for overkill and total obliteration. I'm certain they'd have another 1 or 100 ready to go in the blink of an eye.

So yeah, NK playing roulette? NK with a revolver, US with a minigun.

 Deadshot wrote:
I'm certain they'd have another 1 or 100 ready to go in the blink of an eye.

Try 10,113.

Curiously enough, me and a few other chaps who did War Studies postgrad ran a theoretical strategy session to try and figure out a way for how the North could beat the South.

The best we could come up with was a highly implausible plan involving a lot of tunnels, a fleet of secretly developed submarine troop carriers, and a nuke capable of hitting the States(to keep the US out).

I think the South is probably safe.

The U.S. could wipe North Korea from the face of the earth in a blaze of nuclear fire from a single Ohio class SSBN's payload,hell all the missiles on one Boomer would be overkill to the point of madness.

I can't help but continue to believe this is posturing. No one is that fething suicidal that they'd intentionally set their nation up to be completely destroyed.

I think they are acting like that only to show that they have mussels.
Nobody is stupid enough to launch missiles at another country, the only thing they can do is invade south via ground and sea. But they cannot expect the same result as ~60 years ago.

Holy mother of god...
They have seafood!

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
The U.S. could wipe North Korea from the face of the earth in a blaze of nuclear fire from a single Ohio class SSBN's payload,hell all the missiles on one Boomer would be overkill to the point of madness.

I can't help but continue to believe this is posturing. No one is that fething suicidal that they'd intentionally set their nation up to be completely destroyed.

The only problem is that these are still humans, evil and corrupted, but they are still human.
I feel like this thread is kind of dehumanizing the North Koreans.

Just saying just reading the comments. :/ Unless i am misinterpreting which is entirely possible.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
The U.S. could wipe North Korea from the face of the earth in a blaze of nuclear fire from a single Ohio class SSBN's payload,hell all the missiles on one Boomer would be overkill to the point of madness.

I can't help but continue to believe this is posturing. No one is that fething suicidal that they'd intentionally set their nation up to be completely destroyed.

Well, it could be that their glorious leader(s) have started to believe their own rhetoric. They've brainwashed themselves into thinking they can win.

Which could lead to a stupid decision, stupid from our perspective anyway.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
The U.S. could wipe North Korea from the face of the earth in a blaze of nuclear fire from a single Ohio class SSBN's payload,hell all the missiles on one Boomer would be overkill to the point of madness.

I can't help but continue to believe this is posturing. No one is that fething suicidal that they'd intentionally set their nation up to be completely destroyed.

Only if we had the balls to shoot back with nukes in kind. I don't think we do.

That's because no one needs to...

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
What? That much? I thought that they dropped boiling oil from tall towers, or at the most dropped big rocks from hot air balloons.

That'd require fuel, either to heat the oil or fuel the hot air balloon.

Whereas the Mig has been redesigned by Kim Jong Un to run directly on the love the people of North Korea have for their glorious leader, and not any of the decadent western fuel.

 Frazzled wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
The U.S. could wipe North Korea from the face of the earth in a blaze of nuclear fire from a single Ohio class SSBN's payload,hell all the missiles on one Boomer would be overkill to the point of madness.

I can't help but continue to believe this is posturing. No one is that fething suicidal that they'd intentionally set their nation up to be completely destroyed.

Only if we had the balls to shoot back with nukes in kind. I don't think we do.

Naw... we'd shoot back and then some.

Just remember how we felt when 9/11 happened.

I'm not sure the US populace would stand for not shooting Nukes back if someone tried or succeeded in using Nukes against the mainland US (this includes Hawaii and Alaska). This wouldn't be a terrorist attack where we wouldn't have a target. Remember what happened to the last country that actually attacked the United States proper, we dropped a 2 a-bombs on them.

I do hope it's sabre rattling though. While I wouldn't have a single issue with a US decision to turn NK into glass I do feel a little bad that so many people would die for their leaders stupid decisions. But them's the breaks.

Definitly, if they attempt or succeed in nuking us, even if they just hit SK and catch a bunch of our guys in the blast, I say we glass the place.

Or, we could be funny with our deployment of bombs and hit everywhere except the major population centers. Make it so you can't leave any of the cities, they'd effectivly be cut off by nuclear wastelands.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Definitly, if they attempt or succeed in nuking us, even if they just hit SK and catch a bunch of our guys in the blast, I say we glass the place.

Or, we could be funny with our deployment of bombs and hit everywhere except the major population centers. Make it so you can't leave any of the cities, they'd effectivly be cut off by nuclear wastelands.

realllly didn't stop the soviets from sending their men into the nuclear wastes, now did it?