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So I'm actually surprised my Death Company Marines with jump packs and CC weapons annihilated my friend's Deathwing Terminators in the Assault Phase.

That was only my second game ever and I didn't think they'd be up to the challenge. I'm guessing it had something to do with the five attacks per model and the HoW attack at the beginning.

But I feel I did something I wasn't suppose to, thus making me a cheater by accident. Does anyone out there know what could've gone wrong in this battle? I don't want to play the wrong way and get someone mad or annoyed. I like to be fair in all my games.

Out of curiousity, how was the DW squad kitted out? How many were there?

By the same token, how many DC did you have and how were they equipped?

DW was 5 Termies with 4 PF and one Power Sword.

DC was 5 Marines with Jump packs, thunder hammer, power sword, PF, and 2 chainswords.

Im pretty new to the game too, so my points might get called out wrong but you got 3 Weapons that ignore his 2+ armor save, so hes got to be quite lucky to get his 5+ inv.safes. Your kit was superior to his, so you deserve your win. DC is a beast in assault... I constantly get smashed by them myself

That's a really well-kitted DC squad. By my count it's 245 points, which is probably more than the deathwing squad.

With 8 WS5/S9/AP2 attacks on the charge at I1, that squad should have pretty much cleaned up any 5 man squad of terminators. The 15 attacks at I4 might have forces 1 or 2 wounds through to seal the deal and reduce casualties.

The problem is that you would take a few power fist hits back at I1, so you probably lost most of your DC squad. It was probably a near-equal exchange in points. And since fists are S8, you don't get any saves against them, even with FNP.

The only thing that's a little tricky with this is that HoW is an auto-hit with base model strength and AP -. If you played it as just an extra attack, or adding the FC bonus, they that would be cheating. Not saying you did, though.

DW guy really dropped the ball. DW termies should always have a lest 1 TH/SS guy, preferably 2. If he had taken them he probably would shrugged off your attacks and them wiped you out the next turn.

The solution is simple: don't let DC charge something you care about. It's not that hard to engineer.

Without getting into exact number of Attacks - you should be following these particular points:

1) Your standard DC and the one with a power sword would strike at the same time as his Sergeant. He'd get 2+ saves against all of these, you'd only get FNP in return.
2) Your power fist and thunder hammer would then strike at the same time as his power fists, I1. You'd get no save or FNP at all as double strength means ID, but he would only get 5+.
3) You only get HoW and the rerolling failed ToHit rolls on the turn you charge, sounds like this was the case. HoW you also only get if you didn't use the jump packs to move 12" in the Movement phase.

Something else, though... did you run them with a Chaplain? It bumps the points up, but damn is it worth it - rerolling any failed ToHit *AND* Wound rolls on charging makes them just about (arguably mind!!) the best close combat squad in the game.

DC are not even close to the best CC squad in the game ,because they are only good on the assault. If they are counter assaulted or shot after their initial assault, they die like slime.

Martel732 wrote:
DC are not even close to the best CC squad in the game ,because they are only good on the assault. If they are counter assaulted or shot after their initial assault, they die like slime.

I can't think of any assault units that are immune to counterassault or being shot in the open.

MarsNZ wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
DC are not even close to the best CC squad in the game ,because they are only good on the assault. If they are counter assaulted or shot after their initial assault, they die like slime.

I can't think of any assault units that are immune to counterassault or being shot in the open.

Grey hunters are nasty counter assulters, and any MC would do fine.

MarsNZ wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
DC are not even close to the best CC squad in the game ,because they are only good on the assault. If they are counter assaulted or shot after their initial assault, they die like slime.

I can't think of any assault units that are immune to counterassault or being shot in the open.

Hammernators? I can't remember the number of times where my friend brings his 20 Hammernators (That I bought for him for his Birthday ) to bear and I spend two turns emptying everything I have into them, only to kill 2...

MarsNZ wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
DC are not even close to the best CC squad in the game ,because they are only good on the assault. If they are counter assaulted or shot after their initial assault, they die like slime.

I can't think of any assault units that are immune to counterassault or being shot in the open.

Any assault units that are not paying premiums for their powers that only work on the assault. Terminators take charges fine. Grey Hunters. Genestealers take charges, but not the shooting so much.

DC also trick people into bringing too few scoring units in their list since they are "troops". They should have just been honest and put them in elites.

Martel732 wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
DC are not even close to the best CC squad in the game ,because they are only good on the assault. If they are counter assaulted or shot after their initial assault, they die like slime.

I can't think of any assault units that are immune to counterassault or being shot in the open.

Any assault units that are not paying premiums for their powers that only work on the assault. Terminators take charges fine. Grey Hunters. Genestealers take charges, but not the shooting so much.

DC also trick people into bringing too few scoring units in their list since they are "troops". They should have just been honest and put them in elites.

Don't forget CSM with MoK since they get Counter-Attack

I don't pretend to know all assault options that are more versatile than DC. I only know that they exist, and the BA don't have them.

 TheSanguineSauce wrote:
That's a really well-kitted DC squad. By my count it's 245 points, which is probably more than the deathwing squad.

With 8 WS5/S9/AP2 attacks on the charge at I1, that squad should have pretty much cleaned up any 5 man squad of terminators. The 15 attacks at I4 might have forces 1 or 2 wounds through to seal the deal and reduce casualties.

The problem is that you would take a few power fist hits back at I1, so you probably lost most of your DC squad. It was probably a near-equal exchange in points. And since fists are S8, you don't get any saves against them, even with FNP.

The only thing that's a little tricky with this is that HoW is an auto-hit with base model strength and AP -. If you played it as just an extra attack, or adding the FC bonus, they that would be cheating. Not saying you did, though.

I actually only lost one. And he Challenged my power sword guy with his own sgt (with power sword)

Martel732 wrote:
I don't pretend to know all assault options that are more versatile than DC. I only know that they exist, and the BA don't have them.

TH/SS Termies? Sanguniary Guard maybe, although to a lesser degree.

Oh, yeah. The TH/SS guys were not on my mind as they had already been listed. Sanguinary guard take charges much better than DC, but plasma is really bad for them. Really really bad.

Martel732 wrote:
Oh, yeah. The TH/SS guys were not on my mind as they had already been listed. Sanguinary guard take charges much better than DC, but plasma is really bad for them. Really really bad.

Mhmm, for sure. I almost want to like Sanguinary Guard because they're a pretty good unit... but they have such a hard counter in the form of AP1 or 2 weapons that they're almost useless... kind of like Land Raiders in 5th edition. Maybe if the meta shifts then they might be more viable (like Land Raiders in 6th ). But that said, with Tau on the way, that's unlikely to happen.

 BattleCapIronblood wrote:
I actually only lost one. And he Challenged my power sword guy with his own sgt (with power sword)

Ah, now THIS was incorrect...although it wouldn't have made much difference in the end. You can only enact challenges by characters, against characters. DC don't come with an attached Sergeant or anything so you can only work a challenge in by having an IC attached.

...I fully regret my comment about DC being the best cc unit, I should've known it'd derail the thread. Please open up a new thread if you wanna carry on instead of dragging this one out...!

No, it's fine. If you can set up a charge on something valuable, DC work really well. But, in my experience, that requires enemy cooperation, something that is bad to count on.

One quick little note, your TH and PF guys should have had 4 attacks each on the charge. They do not get the +1 attack for an extra CC weapon due to their specialist weapons.

Orblivion wrote:
One quick little note, your TH and PF guys should have had 4 attacks each on the charge. They do not get the +1 attack for an extra CC weapon due to their specialist weapons.

I know, they actually didn't, I remembered that.

 Super Ready wrote:
Something else, though... did you run them with a Chaplain? It bumps the points up, but damn is it worth it - rerolling any failed ToHit *AND* Wound rolls on charging makes them just about (arguably mind!!) the best close combat squad in the game.

It's a ton of fun, but point for point, it's normally more effective and cheaper to take a few more Death Company with power axes. The extra wounds they deal (especially against troops with decent saves) almost always outweigh the benefit of the re-rolls. And you don't risk a second kill point/Slay the Warlord when you throw them into the fray.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Oh, yeah. The TH/SS guys were not on my mind as they had already been listed. Sanguinary guard take charges much better than DC, but plasma is really bad for them. Really really bad.

Mhmm, for sure. I almost want to like Sanguinary Guard because they're a pretty good unit... but they have such a hard counter in the form of AP1 or 2 weapons that they're almost useless... kind of like Land Raiders in 5th edition. Maybe if the meta shifts then they might be more viable (like Land Raiders in 6th ). But that said, with Tau on the way, that's unlikely to happen.

Yeah, I like to use them but with a similar attitude to when you take your land raider

 Titan Atlas wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Oh, yeah. The TH/SS guys were not on my mind as they had already been listed. Sanguinary guard take charges much better than DC, but plasma is really bad for them. Really really bad.

Mhmm, for sure. I almost want to like Sanguinary Guard because they're a pretty good unit... but they have such a hard counter in the form of AP1 or 2 weapons that they're almost useless... kind of like Land Raiders in 5th edition. Maybe if the meta shifts then they might be more viable (like Land Raiders in 6th ). But that said, with Tau on the way, that's unlikely to happen.

Yeah, I like to use them but with a similar attitude to when you take your land raider

A cavalier attitude?

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Titan Atlas wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Oh, yeah. The TH/SS guys were not on my mind as they had already been listed. Sanguinary guard take charges much better than DC, but plasma is really bad for them. Really really bad.

Mhmm, for sure. I almost want to like Sanguinary Guard because they're a pretty good unit... but they have such a hard counter in the form of AP1 or 2 weapons that they're almost useless... kind of like Land Raiders in 5th edition. Maybe if the meta shifts then they might be more viable (like Land Raiders in 6th ). But that said, with Tau on the way, that's unlikely to happen.

Yeah, I like to use them but with a similar attitude to when you take your land raider

A cavalier attitude?

Pretty much.