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Fickle Fury of Chaos



Vt

I put an army list on Dakka's list section that relies on hitting my own units with a beam psychic attack. A couple users told me that I would have to target an enemy unit with the beam in order to use it, and so the beams would be harder to use. I thought I'd post this YMDC on here to see what others think. The rules I've found are as follows:


Pg. 69 of the BRB: "The Psyker must be able to see the target unit (or target point)..."

Pg. 69: "There are several different sub-types of witchfire, each applying slightly different targeting restrictions."

Pg. 69: "To use a Witchfire power with the beam sub-type, target a point within the power's range and trace a line (about 1mm thick) between the chosen point and the centre of the psyker's base. The beam automatically hits all models (friend or foe)... "

Pg. 69: "Additionally, the first model hit must be from the same unit that the rest of the Psyker's unit targets that phase." (since each unit that I'd use only has the beam attack this doesn't come into play for me, but it is a possible restriction.)

Is there a rule somewhere stating that beams target a unit in addition to a point? Could someone point me to it?

Also:

From the FAQ: Q: "If the Blood Lance or Jaws of the Warp Wolf (or any beam power for that matter) passes through more than one enemy unit, does my opponent get to make a deny the witch roll for each unit effected? (pg. 69)" A: "No. The first unit effected by the psychic power can attempt to deny the witch, but if that test is failed, every enemy unit is affected as normal."

Does this mean I can hit my own unit first and completely remove my opponent's ability to deny the witch to a beam?


Note: edited 3/28/13 in order to complete the quote from the FAQ. I had originally quoted the only portions I found to be relevant, but the FAQ quote has proven to be a main point of argument so I thought I'd make it easier to access the whole thing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/29 02:36:01


 
   
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you are not allowed to target your own troops. period
   
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Fickle Fury of Chaos



Vt

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
you are not allowed to target your own troops. period



The beam special rules specifically say that friendly models are hit by beams. The rules would not say that if beams could not, in fact, hit friendly models. The ability of beams to hit friendly units is not in question here (they can). The question is do you also have to hit an enemy unit and, if so, do you have to hit that unit first? Unless there's a rule stating beams also target units rather than the "point" specified in the rules I quoted the answer is no. I'm asking if anyone can point me to any rules that would alter what the rules for beams state on pg. 69.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/27 08:45:07


 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




Here the target is NOT a unit, but a point on the table. As such you can "target" your own models, because you arent actually targetting, 40k meaning, you are simply affecting them.
   
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Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest





Stevenage, UK

That's not how I read it, Nos - I read it as using the rules for targetting, but to a point rather than a unit. So you'd still need line of sight to that point, but I believe you could just nominate a point a fraction of an inch away from the psyker and extend from there anyway.

One thing to take note of, though - Beams as mentioned don't affect friendly models. However, Blood Lance is NOT a Beam as defined by the rulebook, it's a codex power that just happens towork like one. That's why the faq is different.

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Premise 1. You only get Deny the Witch against powers that target one of your units.
Premise 2. The BRB FAQ tells us that the first enemy unit crossed by the Beam gets to Deny the Witch.
Conclusion: A Beam is considered to target the first enemy unit it crosses.

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And Manny's conclusion is supported by the already-posted reference in the BRB.

Pg. 69: "Additionally, the first model hit [by the beam] must be from the same unit that the rest of the Psyker's unit targets that phase."

This also means that it is impossible to hit the Psyker's own unit, since his own unit cannot target itself with its own guns.

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Elric Greywolf wrote:
And Manny's conclusion is supported by the already-posted reference in the BRB.

Pg. 69: "Additionally, the first model hit [by the beam] must be from the same unit that the rest of the Psyker's unit targets that phase."

This also means that it is impossible to hit the Psyker's own unit, since his own unit cannot target itself with its own guns.


I don't think that means what you think it means. That rule is saying if the Psyker's unit shoot at Unit A, Unit A must be the fist unit hit [by the beam]. If the rest of the unit does not fire at all there is no restriction (from page 69).

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But if the Psyker's unit does not target anything, can the beam hit anything? If the Psyker's unit does not target anything, how can the beam hit the unit that was not targeted?
I ask because of the word "must."

This is, of course, ridiculous to suggest. But perhaps RAW....

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Elric Greywolf wrote:
But if the Psyker's unit does not target anything, can the beam hit anything? If the Psyker's unit does not target anything, how can the beam hit the unit that was not targeted?
I ask because of the word "must."

This is, of course, ridiculous to suggest. But perhaps RAW....


So what happens when the Psyker is all by his little lonesome? Since he does not have a unit (other than himself) the first unit (aka target) must be the unit he targeted...what?

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I don't know. If there is no "rest of the Psyker's unit," then it seems either he cannot shoot the beam (since there was no selected target unit), or he can shoot the beam (since the rule does not cover the situation).

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Based on the rules in the book, and in the FAQ, I'd say that the first enemy unit hit gets to make a deny the witch roll.

This ruling doesn't make the fact that you can target a point on the ground useless. You can still do that, and it would allow you to hit a unit that you don't have line of sight on by simply saying you're targetting the ground. However, per the FAQ, the first enemy hit will still be considered the target solely for the purposes of deny the witch and unit targeting.

Beam weapons specify that if they go through a building or piece of terrain, it counts as hitting that before moving to the next target. So essentially what this does for you, is allows you to be hiding behind a ruin or building, and shoot through the walls to hit your enemies. Even though they get a DtW roll, it's still pretty spiffy since they won't be able to return fire without moving to do so.

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For the purposes of targetting the same as the rest of the unit...remember that while attached the IC is part of the unit. So they are only allowed to target the unit he does, and vice versa. He can set the target for the unit as a whole by using the power. The rest of the unit then has their target, even if they're not firing anything.

It could've been worded better if you ask me. Perhaps "the first unit hit by the beam counts as the psyker's target for the purpose of working out what can be targetted by any other models in his unit for that turn".

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Fickle Fury of Chaos



Vt

So then I can hit my own guys without targeting an enemy unit, since I target a point instead?


As to the denying of deny the witch to your enemy. Here's the part of the FAQ that makes me feel you might be able to prevent your enemy from denying the witch: From the FAQ: Q: "If the blood lance... (or any beam power for that matter) passes through more than one enemy unit, does my opponent get to make a deny the witch roll for each unit effected?" A: "No. The first unit effected by the psychic power can attempt to deny the witch."

Since you can hit your own models with a beam, and since the FAQ says "units" rather than "enemy units," the first unit effected by a beam going through an ally unit first is a friendly unit and under your control. Your own unit would be the one able to deny the witch, and you could decline to do so. No units under your opponent's control would then be able to deny the witch, and so the power would go through.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/27 16:47:32


 
   
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I thought there was a rule somewhere (maybe related to flamer placement?) that said you had to attempt to avoid hurting your own troops if at all possible. But maybe it was a previous edition, or maybe it is just a figment of my imagination? Anyone else know of such a rule.. Sorry I don't have a BRB with me...

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Vt

Beast wrote:
I thought there was a rule somewhere (maybe related to flamer placement?) that said you had to attempt to avoid hurting your own troops if at all possible. But maybe it was a previous edition, or maybe it is just a figment of my imagination? Anyone else know of such a rule.. Sorry I don't have a BRB with me...


I had considered that, but the rule for template weapons only applies to template weapons themselves.

BRB pg. 52: "Instead of rolling To Hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the firing model and the rest of the template covers as many models in the target unit as possible, without touching any other friendly models (including other models from the firing model's unit)."

Maybe this is where people are getting the idea that beam attacks have to target enemies/can't hit friendly models?

 
   
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zamnath wrote:


I had considered that, but the rule for template weapons only applies to template weapons themselves.

BRB pg. 52: "Instead of rolling To Hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the firing model and the rest of the template covers as many models in the target unit as possible, without touching any other friendly models (including other models from the firing model's unit)."

Maybe this is where people are getting the idea that beam attacks have to target enemies/can't hit friendly models?


Ah. Thanks. I thought I remembered something like that but wasn't sure if it applied only to flamers or if it was a more general rule.

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Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest





Stevenage, UK

Usually, you only have permission to target an enemy unit - this prevents most shooting from hitting your own side.
Blasts specify that you can't deliberately target your own troops, but that scatter can end up having that result - templates as mentioned don't allow you to at all, since they don't scatter.
These are specifically brought up because these weapon types can cause situations where your own unit would end up being hit as a result of targeting another unit.

Likewise, Beams give a description for what to do if that situation arises (I've just checked, and your own models can in fact be hurt by the beam, I misread this earlier). So you can hit your own troops with the beam. Now bear with me, because this is where it gets complicated...

Beams still have to follow the rules for shooting, except where mentioned otherwise, right? So you would normally have to target an enemy unit. But for Beams, you're given permission to target a point instead. BUT - if you're with a unit, the first unit that the beam hits will be what the rest of your unit targets for that turn. But what if it's a unit they're not allowed to?

It all comes down to this line:
"the first model hit must be from the same unit that the rest of the Psyker's unit targets that phase."
That works both ways, as all firing takes place simultaneously, and Beams are used in place of a normal shooting attack, so the timing is the same. You choose a target for the entire unit before you decide what models fire (including the psyker), so it doesn't matter whether the unit fires anything - they're still considered to be targetting that unit, which they're not allowed to do. Ergo, you must position the beam so that the first model it hits is an eligible target for the rest of the unit.

I've just answered my own follow up question, as well. Does this mean that the Beam must hit an enemy unit that is within range and line of sight of your unit as a whole? For instance, if the first model hit is completely hidden behind a wall or if the unit has no ranged weaponry at all. You can still fire with the Beam alone because the only qualifiers for being able to choose a target are that they are within range and line of sight. The Beam's own range counts for this as it counts as a shooting weapon. HOWEVER - although the Beam fires at a point, you need to fire it in such a way that the first model hit is in a unit that can be seen by any model in your firing unit. Otherwise, it's not an eligible target for the unit overall.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/03/27 19:17:36


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Fickle Fury of Chaos



Vt

Ah, but take a unit that only has that beam, such as a unit of Pink Horrors from Codex: Daemons (the units I would use), or take a unit/model withholding the rest of their firepower. I am fairly certain that they would then be able to target a friendly unit (and target through pretty much anything they have line of sight to within 24") with impunity.

 
   
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zamnath wrote:
take a unit/model withholding the rest of their firepower


This one doesn't work - since you choose your target before deciding which models do and don't fire.

Ah, but take a unit that only has that beam, such as a unit of Pink Horrors from Codex: Daemons


This is a trickier one, and I don't feel I know the answer for sure. All models have only the Beam, which has permission to hit friendly models. It doesn't have permission to target them... so you could argue that in nominating a Beam where the first unit hit is friendly, you're breaking that rule... BUT you then come up against the entire unit counting as the psyker which has in fact targetted the point used for the Beam to begin with. In that case, the unit would not have a target unit at all.

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zamnath wrote:
So then I can hit my own guys without targeting an enemy unit, since I target a point instead?


As to the denying of deny the witch to your enemy. Here's the part of the FAQ that makes me feel you might be able to prevent your enemy from denying the witch: From the FAQ: Q: "If the blood lance... (or any beam power for that matter) passes through more than one enemy unit, does my opponent get to make a deny the witch roll for each unit effected?" A: "No. The first unit effected by the psychic power can attempt to deny the witch."

Since you can hit your own models with a beam, and since the FAQ says "units" rather than "enemy units," the first unit effected by a beam going through an ally unit first is a friendly unit and under your control. Your own unit would be the one able to deny the witch, and you could decline to do so. No units under your opponent's control would then be able to deny the witch, and so the power would go through.



The DTW roll is made by the enemy units, not friendly ones. You will not get a chance to DTW your own Beam.
   
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Vt

Fragile wrote:
zamnath wrote:
So then I can hit my own guys without targeting an enemy unit, since I target a point instead?


As to the denying of deny the witch to your enemy. Here's the part of the FAQ that makes me feel you might be able to prevent your enemy from denying the witch: From the FAQ: Q: "If the blood lance... (or any beam power for that matter) passes through more than one enemy unit, does my opponent get to make a deny the witch roll for each unit effected?" A: "No. The first unit effected by the psychic power can attempt to deny the witch."

Since you can hit your own models with a beam, and since the FAQ says "units" rather than "enemy units," the first unit effected by a beam going through an ally unit first is a friendly unit and under your control. Your own unit would be the one able to deny the witch, and you could decline to do so. No units under your opponent's control would then be able to deny the witch, and so the power would go through.



The DTW roll is made by the enemy units, not friendly ones. You will not get a chance to DTW your own Beam.



The relevant rules for this that I could find are:

BRB pg. 68: "If a psychic power is targeted on an enemy unit, and the Psychic test is passed, the target can attempt to Deny the Witch before the psychic power is resolved."

The previously quoted FAQ for Beams: "If the blood lance... (or any beam power for that matter) passes through more than one enemy unit, does my opponent get to make a deny the witch roll for each unit effected?" A: "No. The first unit effected by the psychic power can attempt to deny the witch."

Pg. 69 stating that Beams target a point and have to first hit whatever unit the rest of the unit might be targeting is also relevant.

The BRB gives enemy units permission to Deny the Witch against powers being targeted on them. Since a beam targets a point rather than an enemy unit they would not have any Deny the Witch at all if it were not for the FAQ. The FAQ states that the first unit effected (note how it does not specify enemies or allies) has the opportunity to Deny the Witch. If you were to hit an allied unit first they would have the opportunity to Deny the Witch, as the FAQ gives permission to the first unit effected, and no units after them would be able to Deny the Witch. So, in order to let the beam go through unopposed you could decline to Deny the Witch with your unit, at which point your opponent would not be able to Deny the Witch.


---

To Super Ready: I don't agree about the potential illegality of Horrors shooting through allies. As they count as a single psyker and have access to only the beam attack (and only from one model) there is no other potential shooting to target a unit with, so there doesn't seem to be any other potential target than the point they elect as the far end of their beam. You're absolutely right about psykers inside units with other shooting, though. The rules on pg. 13 are explicit concerning that. I didn't realize that potential niggling detail. Keeping with the Daemons codex as an example, if a Herald of Tzeentch has Bolt of Change and he's in a Horrors unit with Flickering Fire, it seems that the Herald would have to hit the unit being targeted by Flickering Fire before he hits any other units.

This makes me wonder about characters with multiple Witchfires a turn. Take Fateweaver, for instance: as a Flying Monstrous Creature he may elect to use two Witchfire powers a turn. Does this mean that, even if he only wanted to use one, he would be forced to hit an enemy unit first as he must feasibly be able to target the first unit he hits with the other Witchfire power, similar to what Super Ready mentioned with Heralds in units? What if he were to use Vector Strikes and thus be unable to use two Witchfires that turn? My interpretation is that he would be able to use Bolt in the same way that a regular Pink Horror unit is able to use Bolt, as he does not have to use two witchfires a turn, and the only reason that the herald/horrors unit would be constrained is because the BRB specifically states that the entire unit must shoot. What does everyone else think?

 
   
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Your trying to take the sentence out of context Zam.

"If the blood lance... (or any beam power for that matter) passes through more than one enemy unit, does my opponent get to make a deny the witch roll for each unit effected?" A: "No. The first unit effected by the psychic power can attempt to deny the witch."


Through more than one ENEMY unit.... The first [ENEMY] unit effect by the power can make a DTW. Show me permission in the BRB for a non enemy unit to DTW.

   
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Vt

Fragile wrote:
Your trying to take the sentence out of context Zam.

"If the blood lance... (or any beam power for that matter) passes through more than one enemy unit, does my opponent get to make a deny the witch roll for each unit effected?" A: "No. The first unit effected by the psychic power can attempt to deny the witch."


Through more than one ENEMY unit.... The first [ENEMY] unit effect by the power can make a DTW. Show me permission in the BRB for a non enemy unit to DTW.



Not particularly. The quote above specifically states that you do not follow the normal Deny the Witch protocol for Beam powers. Further, the regular rules in the BRB wouldn't give you any permission to Deny the Witch against a beam at all, since you have to be the target of the power, according to the rulebook, in order to Deny the Witch. The only thing you can go on for how to treat Deny the Witch for Beams is the FAQ entry they wrote specifically for them, and that FAQ states that the first unit effected is the one that can Deny the Witch. It rather blatantly says that no one but the first unit effected is able to Deny the Witch against a Beam. If they specified first enemy unit effected, then you'd be right. But they don't. Deny the Witch goes to the first effected unit period unless I'm missing a rule somewhere, which I admit is possible. Please feel free to point me to it if you find one.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/28 03:29:04


 
   
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But they did. The context of the sentence states "passes through more than one ENEMY unit, does my opponent get to make a deny for each unit.." The only discussion here is Enemy units, as only enemy units can DTW. The answer refers to the question about enemy units. It doesnt have to clarify friendly or enemy, because only Enemy units can DTW.

   
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Fragile wrote:
But they did. The context of the sentence states "passes through more than one ENEMY unit, does my opponent get to make a deny for each unit.." The only discussion here is Enemy units, as only enemy units can DTW. The answer refers to the question about enemy units. It doesnt have to clarify friendly or enemy, because only Enemy units can DTW.



It is certainly true that only enemy units can Deny the Witch under normal circumstances. It is not only enemy units that can be effected by a beam, however. The FAQ answer states "the first unit effected" gets to Deny the Witch. If you shoot a friendly unit with a beam first and then enemy units after, which of those units is the one first effected? The answer would be the friendly unit. The FAQ specifically states "The first unit effected by the psychic power can attempt to deny the witch." You could say that the "unit" referenced in the answer is taken from the "enemy units" referenced in the question, but if that were the case they've worded their answer in a very vague and poorly thought out way. Why say "the first unit effected" rather than "the first enemy unit"? This would be especially odd given the fact that Beams are one of the few ranged attacks able to hit both friendly and enemy units--it is something that makes Beams both unique and distinct--and, because of this, the ability to hit both friend and foe should have been at the forefront of the rules-writers' minds whilst writing the FAQ.

A rule has to specifically say what parameters do and don't effect it, and the actual rules portion of this FAQ does not treat enemies and allies differently. The question can be seen to give the specific context you're referencing, but it could also be seen not to. It is an equally valid interpretation of the rules here to say that the FAQ is specifically telling you that you should not differentiate between allies and enemies, due to the fact that it says your opponent does not "get to make a deny the witch roll for each unit effected" and that you instead take the option to deny the witch on "the first unit effected"--aka, the first unit effected with no other stated limitations. Since the 40k ruleset works on a series of permissions, I am more inclined to default to the rules interpretation that is explicitly permitted--that the first unit, friend or foe, to be effected by the ability is the unit that can Deny the Witch--rather than follow a rules interpretation that requires a very specific and debatable interpretation of the interrelation of two distinct, otherwise explicit statements in order to function.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2013/03/28 05:11:35


 
   
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Why say "the first unit effected" rather than "the first enemy unit


Only enemy units are referenced in the question being asked ("more than one enemy units") and only enemy units are allowed to DTW. Your taking the answer out of context from the question.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/28 05:20:07


 
   
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Vt

Fragile wrote:
Why say "the first unit effected" rather than "the first enemy unit


Only enemy units are referenced in the question being asked ("more than one enemy units") and only enemy units are allowed to DTW. Your taking the answer out of context from the question.


The FAQ question takes the form of a statement which is then negated and replaced by another statement. In that format the question has no direct bearing on the answer beyond providing the readers with an understanding of the incorrect rules interpretation that is being replaced. Whatever conclusions you make by drawing from the negated statement can have no bearing on the actual stated rule because the facts you draw from are by definition erroneous. Hence why they are being replaced. I will concede to you the potential for the new ruling to be referencing the question that preceded it, which would validate your claim if you could prove it, but in order for us to accept that the reference is occurring we also have to accept the ruling the FAQ is specifically negating and replacing to be valid. Yes, the stated rule could have been intended to reference the "enemy units" mentioned in the question preceding it, but only if the writer of the FAQ had decided to ignore the basic format of the Q/A he was writing. There is no evidence to support this assumption and no reason to believe it. An interpretation based solely on the new, definitely legitimate rule that is included in the FAQ is the only correct interpretation I can see, and the rule makes no mention of "enemy units." The first unit effected by a beam is the unit that may Deny the Witch against the beam, period. If that unit is under your control, you may choose not to Deny the Witch and the Beam will go through.

Super Ready pointed out why this strategy won't work if you're using a Beam from a unit with mixed attack types, since you can't hit a friendly model first, but I don't see why it wouldn't work from a unit like Pink Horrors that doesn't have targeting restrictions beyond "pick a point."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/28 07:08:32


 
   
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zamnath wrote:
In that format the question has no direct bearing on the answer beyond providing the readers with an understanding of the incorrect rules interpretation that is being replaced.


Actually, this isn't true. This isn't in the amendments or errata sections, it's in the Q&A section. This means that the answer is irrelevant without the question. The answer doesn't apply to anything BUT the question being asked. If it was meant to reword ANY rules as written in the book, it would have been placed in a different section of the FAQ, outlining specifically what it intended to reword or amend.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/28 13:43:40


There is NO SUCH THING as MORE ADVANCED in 40k!!! There are ONLY 2 LEVELS of RULES: Basic and Advanced. THE END. Stop saying "More Advanced". That is not a recognized thing in modern 40k!!!!
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BetrayTheWorld wrote:
The answer doesn't apply to anything BUT the question being asked. If it was meant to reword ANY rules as written in the book, it would have been placed in a different section of the FAQ, outlining specifically what it intended to reword or amend.

That's demonstrably untrue. For a recent example, look at the Out of Range question in the FAQ - it changed rules wholesale.
And there are other examples of an answer being broader than the question.

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