Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Sammael's an ideal inclusion for a Ravenwing army, so if that's where you're heading, great - BUT he is a squeeze to fit into 800 points. If you do take him, you won't need the Knights at the same time, as they fulfil the same AP2-killer role.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
If you already have the models, tough, but I don't bother with Tac marines or scouts.
Bikes are better in every way.

...says the guy with only Ravenwing and Deathwing WDL stats listed, and self-confesses to not using the units at all. They DO have their place, combo foot/Raven lists can be highly effective - largely due to being able to put a LOT of basic Marines down now that they're cheaper, combined with the Banner of Devastation and some easily-taken invulnerable wargear from attached characters.
I will give you this, though - if you want a PURE Ravenwing force and are already taking Sammael then yes, the Tacs and Scouts are best left behind.

That's the route I'm going down. Mainly GreenWing troops with death/ravenwing units to support them.

I'm hearing a lot about this banner of devastation... *time to read up*

Well, playing Ravenwing, Yes.

Darkshroud Jink 5+ Shrouded 3+ Flat Out 2+

No confusion here.

The only reason to run a Darkshroud is if you're running 4+ units of Black Knights and all bikes.

If running standard bikes and other things, ,a Techmarine on bike with a PFG is better.

I am pretty unlucky with my bikers or use them wrong...
Do you run them in 3man squads? I´ve got the feeling that i lose way too much firepower if one of the dudes gets shot... And do you even charge with bikers? Everytime i do it i get overwhelmed and in the end im not even able to pull off hit&run...

What are you charging with your bikers and how many squads are you charging with?

I like 6 man squads with combat squading them into sarge/2 melta and 3 bolter bikes. The bolter bikes stay near a SoD and shoot infantry while the meltas help or pop AV. Only charge stuff that is less dangerous in 2 assault phases than they are in 1 shooting phase. (orks are a nono, IG is a maybe, Tau are a definite yes, SM are probably a no unless they have a decent special weapon)

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Well, playing Ravenwing, Yes.

Darkshroud Jink 5+ Shrouded 3+ Flat Out 2+

No confusion here.

The only reason to run a Darkshroud is if you're running 4+ units of Black Knights and all bikes.

If running standard bikes and other things, ,a Techmarine on bike with a PFG is better.

Sorry, PFG?

How would running a tech marine be better than a darkshroud? The shroud provides a 2+ save if you've moved flat out, I don't see the benefits? Granted, I am new to DA

Maybe because PFG give an invulnerable save and Darkshroud only cover?

Powerfield generator is a 4++ invulnerable, so it works against things like Helldrakes.

It also works on the first turn, when you don't have jink yet.

A techmarine with T5 2+ 4++ and IC can hide in squads and is hell of a lot harder to kill than a 10/10/10 skimmer with two HP.

The techmarine can also hide/ lock units in assault and has last-ditch AP 1 Powerfist, while the DS cannot contest or assault.

Granted, the Darkshroud might attract firepower though so it may be situationally better than the Tech.

A Darkshroud only boosts regular bikes to 4+ Cover when moving,

It's better used with BKs, because they get a 3+ cover and 2+ when boosting

Also, it takes a valuable Fast Attack slot while the Techmarine is slotless.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Powerfield generator is a 4++ invulnerable, so it works against things like Helldrakes.

It also works on the first turn, when you don't have jink yet.

A techmarine with T5 2+ 4++ and IC can hide in squads and is hell of a lot harder to kill than a 10/10/10 skimmer with two HP.

The techmarine can also hide/ lock units in assault and has last-ditch AP 1 Powerfist, while the DS cannot contest or assault.

Granted, the Darkshroud might attract firepower though so it may be situationally better than the Tech.

A Darkshroud only boosts regular bikes to 4+ Cover when moving,

It's better used with BKs, because they get a 3+ cover and 2+ when boosting

Also, it takes a valuable Fast Attack slot while the Techmarine is slotless.

That's what I'll be using my dark shroud with, reading up on the pfg it grants an enemy within 3" an invulnerable save too. For me assaulting that'd be bad. Seems it anyway.

You can always break the Techmarine off before the assault or, keep him in the back and he should be out of range from the front bad guy depending on positioning. If memory serves me the bike bases are about 3" long.