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How powerful a psyker is Kairos Fateweaver? Where would he rank next to the likes of The Big E, Eldrad, Ahriman, Magnus (pre and post Daemon Prince)?

Very powerful, but he lacks showings against other psykers.

Much less than the Emperor and Magnus, the former holding Chaos from flooding the Materium by himself for ten thousand years, the latter has psychic feats against Primarchs that make him seem much more impressive (Kairos, by comparison, could not signifigantly harm Lion El'Jonson). Ahriman? I'd say stronger than pre-Chaos Ahriman, post? Unsure,

Eldrad I can't comment on.

Kairos is far more powerful than any of the other psykers with the exception of tzeentch. Kairos knows everything that has h append and will happen. That gives him a major leg up on the competition.

But he didn't know enough to realize that a GK Dreadknight was about to teleport in and chop his head off on Jollana!

I think fluff-wise most of the heresy-era psykers are better. The stuff of legends and all...

He's more powerful then any living Imperial psyker for certain. I'd also put him above Eldrad. This guy is pretty much the pinnacle of psychic power for a Chaos God that's already known for psychic power.

His main weakness is Tzeentch likes to feth with him, giving him false visions.

It's hard to tell how powerful Kairos is because who can tell how much of any encounter, including his own perceived loss, he already planned? As with Tzeentch himself, the safest bet in measuring Kairos's psychic ability is to assume it's stronger than everyone else's -- barring only Tzeentch himself, of course.

Kairos is two fairly powerful psykers - each of his heads is as strong as current-era Ahriman, and the two of them are amongst the strongest psykers in the galaxy in terms of raw power. Kairos' advantage is that, like Eldrad, he has a lot of foresight and planning capability - Eldrad is a powerful farseer, but in terms of raw psychic power he's not actually any stronger than any other high-end psyker.

The Emperor is the psionic equal of Tzeentch, which is saying something. He's in a league entirely of his own. If Amon'chakai exists in 40k, he's probably the only non-deified psyker who even comes close to their level of power.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Emperor is the psionic equal of Tzeentch, which is saying something.

Do what now?

Age old question: fluff VS rules here?
Rules wise - self explanatory, we can mathammer him out.

Fluff imho - no more than current psychic powerhouses.
And here is why:
I view Kairos as akin to two twins - arguing constantly, pulling in different directions, unsure of being alone, having different goals. But when Tzeentch (analagous to their parent) really needs something achived they unite to be quite poweful.
Added to this, any of the fluff I've read - specifically the Kairos FW book, makes him/her/it? out to be quite petty and distracted - having none of the discipline or focus that Ahriman or Njal or Eldrad might have.
My 2 cents only.

In short: very powerful but no greater than the other psychic powers that other races may have.

 Manchu wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Emperor is the psionic equal of Tzeentch, which is saying something.

Do what now?

If he wasn't, he'd have been overwhelmed by now... but I can't believe that anyone mortal can be stronger than a sapient warp storm.

You mean the Psionic equivalent of the combined Chaos Gods no?
I.e. he is battling them in the Warp psychically?

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Emperor is the psionic equal of Tzeentch, which is saying something.

Do what now?

If he wasn't, he'd have been overwhelmed by now... but I can't believe that anyone mortal can be stronger than a sapient warp storm.

From what I have read of the Great Game, the various doings of the material realm does not generally occupy much of the Ruinous Powers' attention.

Not all at once, he isn't.

Even when Tzeentch was all-powerful, he knew he couldn't fight the other three together on his own. That's why he broke his staff and brought himself down to the same level as them.

No, what I meant is that the Chaos Gods are not doing much to oppose the Emperor compared to what they could be doing and even that much takes up all his time and attention.

The Great Game isnt called that for a reason.

As fluff has stated, if one God ever wins, stagnation enuses which ensures a "victory" for no one. End.

My humble opinion is that the Emp is engaged with one or maybe two of the Chaos Gods at a time in the Warp, whoever is waxing at the time- negating them - never 4 at a time.

He coundlnt fight all 4 and even if he beat them, what would happpen theoretically?
Ideas?

C:CD 4E p. 8 says that their infighting draws all of their attention away from the material world and this is only not the case once every few thousand years.

C:CD 6E p. 8 changes this to "from time to time" but contrasts this to the example of the HH, the one event where the Four cooperated "with all their might" to bring down the Emperor. And they succeeded.

Some will argue that they did not succeed or that their victory was qualified because the Emperor, in some sense, is still alive. But this is undermined by the fact that the Emperor has gained no further (apparent) ground against the Ruinous Powers in these last ten thousand and more years such that they have never again found occasion in the material realm to unify so fervently.

One might say in the face of that, perhaps that was the Emperor's plan -- perhaps that is as much of a victory as he thought he could achieve against the Four.

Or one could say, maybe more believably, that he intended to strike them a much more crippling blow and was himself utterly defeated by them.

Finally, one could even say, although without much or any evidence (which is why it's a matter of faith, I suppose), that the Emperor's plan is not yet complete and that he is playing some long game against the Chaos Gods.

But none of those comes near to saying that the Emperor is as great a psyker as Tzeentch.

Apologies Manchu - Im not arguing with you. My post above was trying to get a handle on Mikos PoV.

I should have quoted Miko. Oh well nn.

My point of view.. mh. I think that the Emperor is probably on the same power level as any one chaos god. He pretty much has to be, or he would have been overwhelmed completely. I was reading Slaves to Darkness the other day, which while old provides an interesting perspective on the nature of the chaos gods.

It basically says that the gods are warp storms that are powerful enough to form a core of sapience that can draw more turbulence into itself and become eternally self-sustaining.

My point of view.. mh. I think that the Emperor is probably on the same power level as any one chaos god.

I humbely (and probably on this forum suicidely agree) with this.
VS one or two Gods in the Warp at a time, he battles them and holds them at bay.

Vs all 4?
hmmm. Not so sure.

You guys/gals opinion?

It's doesn't really matter how potent Fateweaver is, he's a snivelling coward and effectively totally insane, so it's not like he can bring any of that power to bear.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I think that the Emperor is probably on the same power level as any one chaos god..

Not from their point of view. Remember, they got together to bring him down. It's not that it necessarily takes four of them. It's that if even one of them did not cooperate in this goal, none of them would be able to pursue it because the one not working with the rest of them is a bigger threat than what they would work together to oppose. Put it another way, the Chaos Gods perceive any one of themselves as a bigger threat than the Emperor.

Their massed might in Horus only beat the Emperor because Empy was reluctant to kill his son.

The Emperor, currently, is not as big of a threat as the Chaos Gods against each other, but in his prime, he was called The Anathema for a reason.

Collected Visions and some of the HH books directly indicate that the Emperor's power is such that it is actually devastating the Realm of Chaos, and The Sigillite dictates that the Emperor is standing, alone, against the forces of Chaos on Terra, and has been doing so since Magnus accidentally the Webway.

The Emperor is at least on the same tier as Tzeentch. In the Warp, he's probably stronger.

Anyway, Emperor > Kairos, Magnus > Kairos, Malcador is probably > Kairos, Ahriman and Eldrad? Harder to say.

Personally I highly doubt that the Emperor is anywhere near as strong as even the weakest Chaos God. The Emperor (if you want to believe old Rogue Trader background), is the reincarnation of several hundred mortal shaman souls who, feeling the growing power in the warp, committed ritual suicide so that they could all join into one soul and be reborn as the protector for Humanity.

A god however, is a being of truly infinite power, sustained/empowered by any/all sapient races emotions within the warp. The Emperor, though incredibly powerful in his own right, has very finite limits. An infinite is by any mean (infinitely) greater the a finite.

Rather, I believe that the Emperor is "strong enough" to protect most humans on his own, but not strong enough to combat any single god on his own, much less all 4. That's why he actively tried to stamp out religion, to try and starve the gods to the point where he might be able to strike them a crippling blow.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Their massed might in Horus only beat the Emperor because Empy was reluctant to kill his son.

The Emperor, currently, is not as big of a threat as the Chaos Gods against each other, but in his prime, he was called The Anathema for a reason.

Collected Visions and some of the HH books directly indicate that the Emperor's power is such that it is actually devastating the Realm of Chaos, and The Sigillite dictates that the Emperor is standing, alone, against the forces of Chaos on Terra, and has been doing so since Magnus accidentally the Webway.

The Emperor is at least on the same tier as Tzeentch. In the Warp, he's probably stronger.

Anyway, Emperor > Kairos, Magnus > Kairos, Malcador is probably > Kairos, Ahriman and Eldrad? Harder to say.

Which book, I'd really like to read that. I'm only in the first chapters of Mechanicum ATM (reading in order...ish).

In my opinion, Kairos is incredibly powerful, but his power is incredibly limited. He's a puppet who can see the strings. He knows what the future holds, but can do nothing to change it. To him the past, the future, and the present are all the same. He can do anything, provided that it isn't defying fate.

I looked up Kairos and found something interesting though. The word Kairos literally means: "a passing instant when an opening appears which must be driven through with force if success is to be achieved." And then, when I read about Kairos on the Lexicanum, it reveals that sometimes he's been suddenly and surprisingly injured in the past, meaning that his perception of time may be infallible. There may be surprise moments where he can strike out and make a difference, for better or for worse - and, in these passing instants, he may also meet an untimely end.

He's more powerful than any mortal psyker save the Emprah, but he's also insane, which kinda balances it out.

 greg0985 wrote:
Which book, I'd really like to read that. I'm only in the first chapters of Mechanicum ATM (reading in order...ish).

I think in The First Heretic.

LoneLictor - not quite. Kairos is actually blind to the present.

Quite powerful but not Magnus, Emperor, tigiurus ect. Lvl.