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Hi guys, probably answered a million times before but search is bringing up nothing. Can someone just give a yay or nay as to whether I have this right or not, I'm reasonably sure I have but its a list that's going to be used for a tournament and i just want to make sure.

Ok so grand master mordrak, 2 strike squads, 2 dreadknights, unit X (don't know what this is yet, definitely not terminators)

So I can chose up to half my units to be in reserve, I choose 2 strikes and unit X, I then deploy the DK's but then since terminators may always start the game in reserve I then put them in DS reserve, just deploying the DK's (2/4 units)

Is that right?

I count 6 units 3 could be in reserve.

Terminators do not HAVE to start in reserve, unlike say a storm raven or drop pod. Therefore they are counted towards your reserves limit

what is the point of the may always start the game in reserve rule then?

Because there might be missions which don't allow reserves.

Thanks guys, has a big impact on what unit x is then.

Yep, in that case you'll want to start Mordak in reserves most likely (To take advantage of his 'First into the Fray' special rule), so you'll need to account for at least half of your other units starting on the table. The only units in the Grey Knight codex which 'must' start in reserves and therefore don't count for that calculation is the Stormraven.

MarkyMark wrote:
Terminators do not HAVE to start in reserve, unlike say a storm raven or drop pod. Therefore they are counted towards your reserves limit

Correct. However, since they may ALWAYS start in reserve, and the advanced codex rule conflicts with the rulebook, the codex wins out.

So they COUNT towards the limit, and can thus prevent other units from being put into reserve, however they themselves can ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS start in reserve

note that no 6th edition terminators have that rule

The difference is "can" and "must". Terms "can" so therefore count as part of your 50%. A couple of notes: 1) if that something that "must" start in reserves is a dedicated transport, than the unit that it is a transport for is combined with the transport thus not counting towards the 50%; 2) that 50% is rounded up so if you have 5 units, 3 can be in reserves.

Which is what I said: they count towards your 50%

However they have a specific rule stating they can ALWAYS start in reserve. There is no restriction on this, therefore this overrides the rulebook which tries to stop them being put in reserves.

So if you have 5 terminator units and an IC; normally 3 units can be put in reserve. Put 3 in reserve. You then put the 4th unit in reserve, the BRB tells you "no", you then point to your rule saying "you may ALWAYS", and the codex wins.

If you disagree, a page would be useful to explain why. You could also search for all the other times this has come up since 6th edition came out, which ended the same way

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Which is what I said: they count towards your 50%

However they have a specific rule stating they can ALWAYS start in reserve. There is no restriction on this, therefore this overrides the rulebook which tries to stop them being put in reserves.

So if you have 5 terminator units and an IC; normally 3 units can be put in reserve. Put 3 in reserve. You then put the 4th unit in reserve, the BRB tells you "no", you then point to your rule saying "you may ALWAYS", and the codex wins.

If you disagree, a page would be useful to explain why. You could also search for all the other times this has come up since 6th edition came out, which ended the same way

so the rule works if ALL of the units held in reserve are terminators, you can't put non-termies in reserve up to the limit then use the terminators to take you over that limit?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Which is what I said: they count towards your 50%

However they have a specific rule stating they can ALWAYS start in reserve. There is no restriction on this, therefore this overrides the rulebook which tries to stop them being put in reserves.

So if you have 5 terminator units and an IC; normally 3 units can be put in reserve. Put 3 in reserve. You then put the 4th unit in reserve, the BRB tells you "no", you then point to your rule saying "you may ALWAYS", and the codex wins.

If you disagree, a page would be useful to explain why. You could also search for all the other times this has come up since 6th edition came out, which ended the same way

I am not an expert on all things SM, but as a new DA player terminators coming in by DeathWing Assault allow you to determine whether they come in on turn 1 or 2 without the need for a reserve roll. But that doesnt necessarily preclude them from having to follow the 50% reserves rule from the BRB.

So please find it in your codex where it states that terminators may ALWAYS enter from reserves. I'm curious to see what it reads for other chapters.

Moridan wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Which is what I said: they count towards your 50%

However they have a specific rule stating they can ALWAYS start in reserve. There is no restriction on this, therefore this overrides the rulebook which tries to stop them being put in reserves.

So if you have 5 terminator units and an IC; normally 3 units can be put in reserve. Put 3 in reserve. You then put the 4th unit in reserve, the BRB tells you "no", you then point to your rule saying "you may ALWAYS", and the codex wins.

If you disagree, a page would be useful to explain why. You could also search for all the other times this has come up since 6th edition came out, which ended the same way

I am not an expert on all things SM, but as a new DA player terminators coming in by DeathWing Assault allow you to determine whether they come in on turn 1 or 2 without the need for a reserve roll. But that doesnt necessarily preclude them from having to follow the 50% reserves rule from the BRB.

So please find it in your codex where it states that terminators may ALWAYS enter from reserves. I'm curious to see what it reads for other chapters.

grey knight codex p 63
"they may always start the game in reserve and arrive using the deep strike rules"

Whichi is what I pointed out in my first post: 6th edition terminators do NOT have this rule.

Sponge - yes; it works if ALL models in reserves are terminators, or have this rule, or HAVE to start in reserve. You couldnt reserve 1/2 the units that are non-terminator and then try to fit the terminators in, as the non-terminator units would be forced out.

I happen to be in agreement with Nos on this. In the case of GK TDA models, they do in fact have a special rule that allows them to ignore the "no more than 50% (rounded up) in reserves" limitation. As always, however, if you have no units on the table at the end of a game turn, you lose, so exploiting this special rule does have its cons to whatever pros you may be seeing.

It just so happens that I do run an all TDA Ghostwing, and have used the "everything in reserves" tactic to good effect. Yet, I don't recomment it in every game, nor in most games. Its a tool GK's have in their tool box of rules that is useful only when it is useful, so use it with care!

SJ

Suffice to say, as you can see from the replies already, this is hotly contested. There are two arguments:

1) if the wording "may always start in reserve" appears in your Codex, it allows you to ignore the 50% restriction on Terminator units as the Codex wording overrides the rulebook.
2) the wording refers to missions where reserves are not normally allowed (as found in older supplement books) and so it does not conflict with the 50% restriction, which therefore still applies.

As already mentioned, this no longer applies to newer 6th Codexes as the wording has changed - so now they definitely do count towards the 50%. The trouble starts with older Codexes from 5th and earlier that haven't been updated yet, and thus still have the old wording.
RAW it could be argued until the entire forum is blue in the face (and has!!) but now that we've seen the wording in 6th Codexes, it's pretty clear what the intention is.

2) Is just flat out wrong - the phrase is "even in"

This is a reminder. It is not a restriction. There is no way to read this as a restriction as it is current written.

RAW there is no debate, as the rules are surprisingly clear -"may ALWAYS start in reserve...., even in..." is very, very clear.

Yes, it's very clear. But doesn't over-ride the restriction on how much of your army can be in reserve.

It does - for that unit.

If you disagree, please show how you are allowed to stop the codex unit from deploying in reserves, when they "may always" do so.

If you check into a hotel with a 24/7 sauna, and you saunter on down there at 2am and discover that it is already occupied by 17 people and a dog having a sandwich party, no amount of screaming that the hotel rules say you always have access to the sauna is going to make you fit in there...

This is the same. Each terminator squad has the option to go into reserves... but that doesn't over-ride the limit on how many squads can go into reserve.

 insaniak wrote:
If you check into a hotel with a 24/7 sauna, and you saunter on down there at 2am and discover that it is already occupied by 17 people and a dog having a sandwich party, no amount of screaming that the hotel rules say you always have access to the sauna is going to make you fit in there...

Bring alcohol.

 insaniak wrote:
This is the same. Each terminator squad has the option to go into reserves... but that doesn't over-ride the limit on how many squads can go into reserve.

The above is true, unless every model in the army is a Terminator squad and may Always start in reserve.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The above is true, unless every model in the army is a Terminator squad and may Always start in reserve.

Nope. In that case, they will all have the option to be in reserve, regardless of whether or not the mission allows it, but you will still have to abide by the restrictions imposed by the reserves rule.

Thing is "may always" is not RAI to give you permission to put all your TDA in reserve but it definitely is RAW.
The langue isn't designed for 6th edition but there are many rules like that out there. As it stands there are 3 types of TDA, new TDA with limited DS as per normal reserves, old TDA with no limit on them being in reserve but they take up your voluntary slots and space wolf TDA where you have to buy a drop pod.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Thing is "may always" is not RAI to give you permission to put all your TDA in reserve but it definitely is RAW.

It really isn't.

Each squad having the option does not allow you to ignore other restrictions. It just allows to to have the choice in missions where reserves would not normally be allowed.

The 50% rule is all great and good but the words of "may always" is a lot stronger than you think. Despite what you think it is very specific premission, any unit may be put in reserves but every unit cannot say that it "may always" be put in reserves.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
The 50% rule is all great and good but the words of "may always" is a lot stronger than you think. Despite what you think it is very specific premission, any unit may be put in reserves but every unit cannot say that it "may always" be put in reserves.

Rule book says units that MUST start in reserve, may is not must, may always is still not must I see no way to avoid the 50% rule with GK terminators. IMO of course

Well, starting the game aboard a Stormraven would do it, as that's a flyer and *MUST* start in reserve.

 insaniak wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Thing is "may always" is not RAI to give you permission to put all your TDA in reserve but it definitely is RAW.

It really isn't.

Each squad having the option does not allow you to ignore other restrictions. It just allows to to have the choice in missions where reserves would not normally be allowed.

Except you are still suggesting that "even in" means /"just in".

I am allowed to always start in reserve. Codex rule. Conflicts dirrectly with a rule telling ,e I may not start in reserve.

Codex wins. You have no rules argument against this.

Simply put, Codex > BRB. The BRB states a 50% limit to units placed in reserves, while the GK Codex has a special rule that allows a specific piece of wargear permission to ignore any limit to being placed in reserves. Yes, GK models in TDA do count towards determining the limit for their army, however, they can also bypass that limit per the GK Codex. Callling it "an old 5th ed rule that doesn't apply anymore" is foolish, as the BRB specificly states that special rules in a Codex will always trump the general rules in the BRB whenever there is a conflict. In this case, the TDA special rule in the GK Codex trumps the general limit in the BRB.

SJ