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 precinctomega wrote:
The point I was making obliquely is that GW deliberately limits their expansion to very particular boundaries. They very much want to remain within those boundaries for long-term business reasons.

R.

If by 'long term' you mean 'until the next dividend payment' or 'until Kirby's retirement fund is filled.'

 precinctomega wrote:
Given that these are obvious to even KK (XD) don't you think there may actually be logical business reasons why GW doesn't do these things?

R.

No.

If you look across the board at various companies, you will find a lot of them who don't do things...or do do things that are bad business. They may even make a bit of money. Sometimes they make a lot of money. Then they fail. There is absolutely no reason to assume that for some reason the people in the Ivory Tower in Nottingham have any more business sense than the people at AIG, Hostess, FPI, AEC, THQ, TSR, FASA...

Quite often, they do things for no reason in particular - and even more often they do things because they think they know something which isn't true (or isn't true anymore).

 Just Dave wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:2. Each month there would be a new special character based on a popular BL character. We'd have 3 versions of Inquisitor Eisenhorn for example and Guant's Ghosts would still have their own rules.

I think this is a great idea.

Personally, I like this thread: it's kinda stunning how such simple and obvious[ly logical] ideas would probably be so effective, and even someone such as KK can think of them!

They used to do that of sorts - there was a somewhat short lived and sporadic series of articles in White Dwarf called Heroes & Villians of the 41st Millenium as well as Chapter Approved articles for Gaunts Ghosts and others and lets not forget the Index Astartes articles they ran. All of them tie together with being more fluffy and expanding on the background (or making the connection between the game, miniatures and BL products).

nkelsch wrote:
Oh look, this thread again.

Another "internet wishlist" of how everyone knows how to do everything better.

We have these literally every week, bulleted lists and all.

Yes, and generally there is some sort of impetus every week from GW for why these sorts of threads pop up...whether it is something like a store shutting down in store gaming, shutting off a market channel, some sort of fiasco involving a childrens' book author, weak financial reports in the face of a strong industrial report...

Something that I don't understand is the price rises, GW price rises have on, say, a Cadian box set is roughly 200% (from costing 18 pounds for 20, to costing something like 20 pounds for 10) Whereas forge world price rises are much much smaller. Take a DKK infantry squad. 35-37 pounds, thats barely 10%. Now I know the plastic cadians have been round longer, but they have become more expensive much quicker.

 precinctomega wrote:
Given that these are obvious to even KK (XD) don't you think there may actually be logical business reasons why GW doesn't do these things?

R.

Never under estimate the power of petty office politics, inertia and incompitance to stall the obvious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Trying to stear this back on topic... The failure to leverage popular tie ins continues to stump me.

Black Library books are getting as much shelf space as established lines like Star Trek and Wars, the FFG games are out selling D&D, the video games brought new fans to GW but if you want to transition to the table top...

Look at all these characters! Can I play Guant or Commissar Cain?
No.

I love Rogue Trader and Death Watch, can I play a RT retinue?
No

I saw these Horus Heresy books are jolly good, might I see their rules?
No. Call Forge World and wait 6 weeks. Oh and you can't use them in normal games. And we hate you.

The Blood Ravens rock! Can I play them?
No, but you can play Blood Angels and Raven Guard!

Just saw Ultramarines on DVD, can I get a Johnny Ultra (or whatever the hero's name is) model?
No, no you may not.


GI Joe 3: Zip Line Ninjas just came out, I would bet dollars to doughnuts if i walk into a TRU tomorrow there will be a wall full of The Rock as Roadblock figures looking back at me. GW

Sure, but your idea of "marketing", and the general feeling in this thread, seems quite different from what is actually happening. GW doesn't do any marketing? White Dwarf is a 100+ page full-color monthly brochure! GW does not expand their product range? Codex-a-month this year, clearly they are pushing for more product in the pipeline as quickly as possible. A brief glance at any of their annual reports confirms they are quite aware of this. Customer communication means a lot of things - clearly, it doesn't mean "let the vocal minority air their endless b*tch sessions via public forums we pay for" to GW. I'm not sure that I disagree with that sentiment!

GW have publicly stated their strategy many times - they believe that they are the leading player in a niche business. They will grow organically by opening new stores, and they feel the one-man-show is the way to do that without going broke in the real estate business. Doubters, see Boston Chicken for a tale of a similar sized company getting it all wrong and going out of business, permanently. They like finecast as a medium, as it leverages their strengths. I don't, but I am just one guy and data is not the plural of anecdote.

Lately I've been coming across as some sort of GW apologist in these "GW is stoopid at business" threads and I ain't that guy. But really, if you are commenting on their business practices maybe you should do a little research and try to understand what they are? Maybe?

 Flashman wrote:

 precinctomega wrote:
Given that these are obvious to even KK (XD) don't you think there may actually be logical business reasons why GW doesn't do these things?

R.

No.

Marketing, expanded product ranges, two way customer communication are fairly sensible business strategies.

Jack_Death wrote:
Sure, but your idea of "marketing", and the general feeling in this thread, seems quite different from what is actually happening. GW doesn't do any marketing? White Dwarf is a 100+ page full-color monthly brochure!

But White Dwarf is aimed entirely at people who already play so there is no point in marketing in that fashion.

The OP is wrong, in a way. I personally think that GW hates the fact that I am a consumer with brains and feelings FAR more than they hate making money off of me.

For 15 years now, every year I get more and more of a feeling that they only see me as a "necessary evil" that they have to put up with to make any money off their product.

Jack_Death wrote:
Sure, but your idea of "marketing", and the general feeling in this thread, seems quite different from what is actually happening. GW doesn't do any marketing? White Dwarf is a 100+ page full-color monthly brochure! GW does not expand their product range? Codex-a-month this year, clearly they are pushing for more product in the pipeline as quickly as possible. A brief glance at any of their annual reports confirms they are quite aware of this. Customer communication means a lot of things - clearly, it doesn't mean "let the vocal minority air their endless b*tch sessions via public forums we pay for" to GW. I'm not sure that I disagree with that sentiment!

White Dwarf is preaching to the choir, not marketing.

Releasing new stuff for 40K/Fantasy will only appeal to a limited portion of their fan base each month.

By customer communication, I mean some kind of market research e.g. Would a limited release Warhammer naval game be appealing to you?

Re: choir preaching - niche market and organic growth strategy. So, yeah.

Let me get this straight, you dismiss White Dwarf, a magazine/brochure distributed via every chain bookseller in North America as "preaching to the choir", but a market survey of current gamers about a limited edition subset of an existing product line would qualify as marketing in your eyes? Ok ...

 Flashman wrote:

Jack_Death wrote:
Sure, but your idea of "marketing", and the general feeling in this thread, seems quite different from what is actually happening. GW doesn't do any marketing? White Dwarf is a 100+ page full-color monthly brochure! GW does not expand their product range? Codex-a-month this year, clearly they are pushing for more product in the pipeline as quickly as possible. A brief glance at any of their annual reports confirms they are quite aware of this. Customer communication means a lot of things - clearly, it doesn't mean "let the vocal minority air their endless b*tch sessions via public forums we pay for" to GW. I'm not sure that I disagree with that sentiment!

White Dwarf is preaching to the choir, not marketing.

Releasing new stuff for 40K/Fantasy will only appeal to a limited portion of their fan base each month.

By customer communication, I mean some kind of market research e.g. Would a limited release Warhammer naval game be appealing to you?

Jack_Death wrote:
Sure, but your idea of "marketing", and the general feeling in this thread, seems quite different from what is actually happening. GW doesn't do any marketing? White Dwarf is a 100+ page full-color monthly brochure!

A monthly $10 catalog is a drop in the ocean of marketing. It only markets to people who already know your products and are willing to pay $10 for a catalog. The marketing we are talking about is ads in other magazines, in public places, on TV, if BL books are selling well then you can market the miniatures alongside them, etc etc..

Customer communication means a lot of things - clearly, it doesn't mean "let the vocal minority air their endless b*tch sessions via public forums we pay for" to GW. I'm not sure that I disagree with that sentiment!

Whoever said it did?

GW have publicly stated their strategy many times - they believe that they are the leading player in a niche business. They will grow organically by opening new stores, and they feel the one-man-show is the way to do that without going broke in the real estate business. Doubters, see Boston Chicken for a tale of a similar sized company getting it all wrong and going out of business, permanently. They like finecast as a medium, as it leverages their strengths. I don't, but I am just one guy and data is not the plural of anecdote.

We know this... does it mean we have to agree that it's a good strategy and good business practices? Hell no.

Lately I've been coming across as some sort of GW apologist in these "GW is stoopid at business" threads and I ain't that guy. But really, if you are commenting on their business practices maybe you should do a little research and try to understand what they are? Maybe?

The OP seems quite well presented and "understanding" of things. People aren't just obliviously giving suggestions with no understanding of what GW is doing and why.

Jack_Death wrote:
Re: choir preaching - niche market and organic growth strategy. So, yeah.

Let me get this straight, you dismiss White Dwarf, a magazine/brochure distributed via every chain bookseller in North America as "preaching to the choir", but a market survey of current gamers about a limited edition subset of an existing product line would qualify as marketing in your eyes? Ok ...

Not sure we're going to find common ground here. Happy to agree to disagree.

Nonsense. That is what a growth strategy aimed at increased year-year in-store sales is all about. When I said "organic" growth, that is what it means by definition - make more sh** and sell more sh**. Give your fans something new to buy, hopefully generate a little excitement about the new products, and (because they are looking to build a completely integrated business and protect margins) in the long run get them to buy as much of the product as possible directly from your own retail outlets, whether online or B&M. Simple, really.

GW has told us, repeatedly, that they believe their business is a niche business. They do not advertise via mass media, as one elephant-sized example of how they act on that belief. Dismissing a targeted marketing vehicle because it is a targeted marketing vehicle completely misses the point.

I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with them, I am just saying that there is an awful lot of completely off-the-wall speculation about their business strategy, profitability, revenues, etc. being repeatedly bantered about. It takes about two minutes of reading in the Investor Relations section of their web site to find the answers to these riddles, there aren't any big secrets.

 jonolikespie wrote:

Jack_Death wrote:
Sure, but your idea of "marketing", and the general feeling in this thread, seems quite different from what is actually happening. GW doesn't do any marketing? White Dwarf is a 100+ page full-color monthly brochure!

But White Dwarf is aimed entirely at people who already play so there is no point in marketing in that fashion.

Jack_Death wrote:
Re: choir preaching - niche market and organic growth strategy. So, yeah.

Let me get this straight, you dismiss White Dwarf, a magazine/brochure distributed via every chain bookseller in North America as "preaching to the choir", but a market survey of current gamers about a limited edition subset of an existing product line would qualify as marketing in your eyes? Ok ...

 Flashman wrote:

Jack_Death wrote:
Sure, but your idea of "marketing", and the general feeling in this thread, seems quite different from what is actually happening. GW doesn't do any marketing? White Dwarf is a 100+ page full-color monthly brochure! GW does not expand their product range? Codex-a-month this year, clearly they are pushing for more product in the pipeline as quickly as possible. A brief glance at any of their annual reports confirms they are quite aware of this. Customer communication means a lot of things - clearly, it doesn't mean "let the vocal minority air their endless b*tch sessions via public forums we pay for" to GW. I'm not sure that I disagree with that sentiment!

White Dwarf is preaching to the choir, not marketing.

Releasing new stuff for 40K/Fantasy will only appeal to a limited portion of their fan base each month.

By customer communication, I mean some kind of market research e.g. Would a limited release Warhammer naval game be appealing to you?

Except it isn't in every Chain Bookseller in North America. It isn't carried as a rule in Books A Million. It also is carried only by request in Barnes and Noble. If you see it on a shelf in one of those book stores, it is generally because a customer asked if the store could get the magazine. The reason is that much like many other GW products - they have been squeezing distributors out of it. Most the magazines in book stores are handled by a distribution house, and White Dwarf has been cut from a lot of those in the past 4 or 5 years. Book stores can still get them through other channels - but it is far more difficult when compared to buying standard distribution packages from one of the various suppliers (something that even chain stores do as things like "Southern Living" are not too popular in North Dakota).

http://www.booksamillion.com/search?id=5626324781764&query=White+Dwarf&where=Magazines

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/noresults?keyword=White+Dwarf+magazine&store=allproducts

Not sure if Canada does it differently - but I would assume that they don't. Europe and Australia might have better distribution of the magazine - but I would not be surprised if they implemented the same squeeze over there as well and the bookstores told them to stuff it. If Simon and Schuster didn't handle the distribution of BL products - those would also likely be off the shelves of local book stores, chain or otherwise.

Jack_Death wrote:
Sure, but your idea of "marketing", and the general feeling in this thread, seems quite different from what is actually happening. GW doesn't do any marketing? White Dwarf is a 100+ page full-color monthly brochure! GW does not expand their product range? Codex-a-month this year, clearly they are pushing for more product in the pipeline as quickly as possible. ... ...

Playing Devil's Advocate, WD is an expensive brochure that most newagents have stopped carrying so you can only buy it in... GW shops, and many veterans have turned away from it.

The codex a month release schedule isn't new product, it's updates of old products some of which, for instance Tau, have languished in the doldrums for years.

To be fair, I do hope the rapid update schedule does indicate a change of strategy by GW. We'll see over the next couple of years.

That is interesting. As I said before, anecdotes aren't data, but I travel all the time and I've never been in a B&N that didn't have it. That would fit with the "buy everything from us" part of the strategy, but certainly eliminates WD as a mass-marketing vehicle. As a targeted marketing vehicle, the point still stands, and to the larger point (just read the financials!) it isn't relevant at all, not that you were commenting on either of course.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:


Except it isn't in every Chain Bookseller in North America. It isn't carried as a rule in Books A Million. It also is carried only by request in Barnes and Noble. If you see it on a shelf in one of those book stores, it is generally because a customer asked if the store could get the magazine. The reason is that much like many other GW products - they have been squeezing distributors out of it. Most the magazines in book stores are handled by a distribution house, and White Dwarf has been cut from a lot of those in the past 4 or 5 years. Book stores can still get them through other channels - but it is far more difficult when compared to buying standard distribution packages from one of the various suppliers (something that even chain stores do as things like "Southern Living" are not too popular in North Dakota).

http://www.booksamillion.com/search?id=5626324781764&query=White+Dwarf&where=Magazines

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/noresults?keyword=White+Dwarf+magazine&store=allproducts

Not sure if Canada does it differently - but I would assume that they don't. Europe and Australia might have better distribution of the magazine - but I would not be surprised if they implemented the same squeeze over there as well and the bookstores told them to stuff it. If Simon and Schuster didn't handle the distribution of BL products - those would also likely be off the shelves of local book stores, chain or otherwise.

Anecdotes (experiences) can be qualitative data, but some people have a habit of considering them to be quantitative.

Studies are continuing to try and identify the gene responsible for this behaviour.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Jack_Death wrote:
Sure, but your idea of "marketing", and the general feeling in this thread, seems quite different from what is actually happening. GW doesn't do any marketing? White Dwarf is a 100+ page full-color monthly brochure! GW does not expand their product range? Codex-a-month this year, clearly they are pushing for more product in the pipeline as quickly as possible. ... ...

Playing Devil's Advocate, WD is an expensive brochure that most newagents have stopped carrying so you can only buy it in... GW shops, and many veterans have turned away from it.

The codex a month release schedule isn't new product, it's updates of old products some of which, for instance Tau, have languished in the doldrums for years.

To be fair, I do hope the rapid update schedule does indicate a change of strategy by GW. We'll see over the next couple of years.

This is the case in the UK as well. I used to buy mine from a supermarket chain but it disappeared so I could only buy it from the GW store. Eventually I didn't bother because I felt the magazine wasn't worth the money.

However, this is another issue. What I am concerned with here is that only selling it in your own store means only established players will really see it. Therefore, not a good marketing tool at all in my opinion.

4. Starter sets would be a bargain to get fans started on a new army which they would then spend a fortune improving.

Like hard drugs.

Around my way, it still appears in WH Smiths and Asda, but I still think it has limited potential to appeal to a wider audience, beyond a few younger people picking it up for the first time.

nanook wrote:
Therefore, not a good marketing tool at all in my opinion.

I agree. I liken it to the new car my wife and I recently bought. We bought a Mazda CX-7. Ever since, we've been getting new car pamphlets from the dealer. I just bought a new car. . .you're advertising to the wrong person.

While Mazda doesn't really have to worry about it because of their commercials and world renown, the example is the same. GW is like Mazda without the commercials. The only way I'd know to look for White Dwarf is if I was already involved and by then, you don't need to advertise to me, you've already got me hooked.

I think the issue here is the function of White Dwarf has changed while the distribution method has not. White Dwarfs used to be for the gamer who would pick one up in his FLGS after a game so that when he got home he could read through the batreps, learn a new painting technique, maybe read through some new rules or get a bit of info on new releases. Now, White Dwarf has changed to an advertisement, but where you pick it up hasn't changed. The person who already has an army or two may not care to pick up a magazine (especially for the cost!) that simply advertises other things you can buy. And the people that don't know about White Dwarf aren't wandering into a gaming dungeon in a far-flung strip mall looking for it.

So, you're putting advertisements up for people that already know about the product. It's like putting a flyer for Call of Duty in the box for Call of Duty.

Edit: And asking me to pay for said flyer.

 precinctomega wrote:
The point I was making obliquely is that GW deliberately limits their expansion to very particular boundaries. They very much want to remain within those boundaries for long-term business reasons.

R.

That's....completely the opposite of the facts. The decisions being made currently are all extremely short-termist and short-sighted; they result in a balance sheet that is healthy enough for Kirby to show to investors in order to keep his job and keep paying himself dividends, but they are demonstrably bad for the long term health of the company. Unless of course you think that closing/1-manning stores, switching to cheaper materials, and raising prices yearly far above inflation all in order to hide declining unit sales is good business. Even then, once you do adjust for inflation, GW have dropped their growth rate until it's almost flat, from a high of 18% per annum. I would have ritually sacrificed babies for an 18% year-on-year growth rate when I worked in retail. And all of that is happening in a sector which is overall growing quite rapidly despite recessions in multiple developed nations.

Oh, and before someone accuses me of being a "hater" again; I don't hate GW, exactly the opposite, if I didn't really like at least some aspects of their product it wouldn't irritate me so much that the company is being imperiled to satisfy self-serving investors with no regard for the hobby, sadly one of whom such people happens to be the CEO.

Regarding WD, the reason Smiths etc delisted it was because it wasn't selling well enough.

Smiths also have a policy to keep badly selling magazines on the shelves in large stores as a kind of diversity initiative. That is why you still see WD in some Smiths and other newsagents they supply.

 Yodhrin wrote:


Oh, and before someone accuses me of being a "hater" again; I don't hate GW, exactly the opposite, if I didn't really like at least some aspects of their product it wouldn't irritate me so much that the company is being imperiled to satisfy self-serving investors with no regard for the hobby, sadly one of whom such people happens to be the CEO.

+1

I think that is something that people don't understand about "haters". We are infuriated with what the company is doing because we care so much about their games and where the company is going. It's not that we wish doom and gloom upon GW. Generally speaking, it is the exact opposite.

The growth of the sector overall is an interesting point.

The old adage is, "A rising tide raises all the ships", meaning that if a market sector (traditional games, in this case) is expanding, then every company in that sector should expand at the same rate unless they are doing things better or worse than their rivals.

We know there has been a boom in boardgames in recent years, triggered by various factors. The historical wargames market seems healthy too, and F/SF in the form of Mantic and others has seen new entrants.

Why is GW merely treading water? Their efficiency gains must run out at some point.

 puma713 wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:


Oh, and before someone accuses me of being a "hater" again; I don't hate GW, exactly the opposite, if I didn't really like at least some aspects of their product it wouldn't irritate me so much that the company is being imperiled to satisfy self-serving investors with no regard for the hobby, sadly one of whom such people happens to be the CEO.

+1

I think that is something that people don't understand about "haters". We are infuriated with what the company is doing because we care so much about their games and where the company is going. It's not that we wish doom and gloom upon GW. Generally speaking, it is the exact opposite.

Indeed. If we didn't care, we wouldn't rant.

What? The OP's saying GW don't like making money? That's ridiculous. Of course they like making money, they're a company. It's what they do. Fortunately for GW and unfortunately for us, GW have that special niche where they can afford to "hate on their fans" and make money.

I would argue that self serving investors would see it as in their interest to see real growth from GW and not just the current range of efficiency savings and price increases to cover the trend of falling sales and lack of innovation in the market.

I don't think that the current sale of licences to computer games makers will paper over readily apparent cracks in their business model.

 Mr. Burning wrote:
I would argue that self serving investors would see it as in their interest to see real growth from GW and not just the current range of efficiency savings and price increases to cover the trend of falling sales and lack of innovation in the market.

I don't think that the current sale of licences to computer games makers will paper over readily apparent cracks in their business model.

The issue is that most investors will be institutions that know little or nothing of the market and will have invested purely on historic performance and annual yield. Therefore, as long as GW perform according to expectations, they won't look too hard to see if they should be doing better.

If more shares were owned by fans, their AGM would be a very different place to be!

 puma713 wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:


Oh, and before someone accuses me of being a "hater" again; I don't hate GW, exactly the opposite, if I didn't really like at least some aspects of their product it wouldn't irritate me so much that the company is being imperiled to satisfy self-serving investors with no regard for the hobby, sadly one of whom such people happens to be the CEO.

+1

I think that is something that people don't understand about "haters". We are infuriated with what the company is doing because we care so much about their games and where the company is going. It's not that we wish doom and gloom upon GW. Generally speaking, it is the exact opposite.

Absolutely. If I wasn't so worried about losing access to a game universe that is by far one of my favorites, and that got me started in the hobby at all over 15 years ago, I wouldn't complain at all, I would just let them die, forgotten, as I went to another company and their IP.

ammp wrote:
Problem is though, if they rectify one bad thing, y'all will still bitch and moan that they haven't done another thing.

"Oh, they're going to let people retail on the internet again?"... "Great, their prices still suck".

"Oh, they're doing some price regression and advertising it really well" ... "They won't let some random internet store sell it for 25% less than retail, they still suck".

So on and so forth. I tend to play other games but ever so often create one new army every few years for 40k. I know its expensive, get over it.

Also, a lot of stuff on that first post would not work, should not work and nobody would ever implement it, and it sounds like YOUR wishlist, not business acumen.

THIS is a prime example of someone whom wants to disagree however doesn't list why there is opposition, ie why wouldn't it work? who wouldn't implement it, etc. by stating no one will doesn't tell the OP anything that he/she didn't already know beforehand, unless you can raise a valid arguement stand by it and then support it with whatever claims you might have. just my two cents


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AegisGrimm wrote:

 puma713 wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:


Oh, and before someone accuses me of being a "hater" again; I don't hate GW, exactly the opposite, if I didn't really like at least some aspects of their product it wouldn't irritate me so much that the company is being imperiled to satisfy self-serving investors with no regard for the hobby, sadly one of whom such people happens to be the CEO.

+1

I think that is something that people don't understand about "haters". We are infuriated with what the company is doing because we care so much about their games and where the company is going. It's not that we wish doom and gloom upon GW. Generally speaking, it is the exact opposite.

Absolutely. If I wasn't so worried about losing access to a game universe that is by far one of my favorites, and that got me started in the hobby at all over 15 years ago, I wouldn't complain at all, I would just let them die, forgotten, as I went to another company and their IP.

Exalted +1