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Hi Dakka!!

Quick question to make sure this is been played right.

If a non independent character is locked in a combat with the enemy and a second squad from his own army can he refuse any challenges issued?

Secondly can he benefit from moral support if he does accept any challenges?

E.g. To clarify what I mean, a Tervigon (MC Character) and 20 gaunts are in an assault against an enemy. Enemy character challenges. From what I’m seeing in the rule book the Tervigon cannot refuse the challenge as he isn’t part of a unit himself, thus having "nothing to hide behind" despite there been the other unit there? Is that correct? He will also not benefit from moral support rule either under the same interpretation that it says he only gets rerolls for the models in his own unit watching the challenge, and as the gaunts are not part of his unit he won’t get any rerolls.

Is this a correct interpretation or am I missing something. I.e. a Non Independent Character with the Character rule can never refuse a challenge himself?

If he's not part of a squad, he can not refuse a challenge.

Also it does not matter if the character has the IC or not, if the Character is not part of any squad or his squad was wiped out previously, he can not refuse any challenge.

 vossyvo wrote:

If a non independent character is locked in a combat with the enemy and a second squad from his own army can he refuse any challenges issued?

Secondly can he benefit from moral support if he does accept any challenges?

E.g. To clarify what I mean, a Tervigon (MC Character) and 20 gaunts are in an assault against an enemy. Enemy character challenges. From what I’m seeing in the rule book the Tervigon cannot refuse the challenge as he isn’t part of a unit himself, thus having "nothing to hide behind" despite there been the other unit there? Is that correct? He will also not benefit from moral support rule either under the same interpretation that it says he only gets rerolls for the models in his own unit watching the challenge, and as the gaunts are not part of his unit he won’t get any rerolls.

Is this a correct interpretation or am I missing something. I.e. a Non Independent Character with the Character rule can never refuse a challenge himself?

In reverse order, yes the tervigon gets Moral Support - the Get 'Im Boss rule doesn't restrict moral support only to models from the challenger's own unit, but they must be locked in combat with the enemy your boss is challenging.

I think the Heroic Stand rule forces the Tervigon to accept the challenge. If the gaunts have a character, it could step up and accept before the Tervigon, but since they don't and the Tervigon is a single-model unit, he accepts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ninja'd

Snapshot wrote:
In reverse order, yes the tervigon gets Moral Support - the Get 'Im Boss rule doesn't restrict moral support only to models from the challenger's own unit, but they must be locked in combat with the enemy your boss is challenging.

I think the Heroic Stand rule forces the Tervigon to accept the challenge. If the gaunts have a character, it could step up and accept before the Tervigon, but since they don't and the Tervigon is a single-model unit, he accepts.

This is all correct. In addition - if there are other characters present you can have them refuse any challenge allowing the Tervigon to still attack.

 Super Ready wrote:

Snapshot wrote:
In reverse order, yes the tervigon gets Moral Support - the Get 'Im Boss rule doesn't restrict moral support only to models from the challenger's own unit, but they must be locked in combat with the enemy your boss is challenging.

I think the Heroic Stand rule forces the Tervigon to accept the challenge. If the gaunts have a character, it could step up and accept before the Tervigon, but since they don't and the Tervigon is a single-model unit, he accepts.

This is all correct. In addition - if there are other characters present you can have them refuse any challenge allowing the Tervigon to still attack.

A brilliant example of Blood Angels Sanguinary priests. If you're challenged, they step out in place of the challanged model, because the bonuses they provide are still there.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
A brilliant example of Blood Angels Sanguinary priests. If you're challenged, they step out in place of the challanged model, because the bonuses they provide are still there.

Not actually a great idea - anything half-decent at challenges will smack the Priest down easily as he's at 1W and I4. That means the rest of the unit *IMMEDIATELY* loses the benefits. Far better to have a basic Sergeant accept instead, assuming there's still one around.

 Super Ready wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
A brilliant example of Blood Angels Sanguinary priests. If you're challenged, they step out in place of the challanged model, because the bonuses they provide are still there.

Not actually a great idea - anything half-decent at challenges will smack the Priest down easily as he's at 1W and I4. That means the rest of the unit *IMMEDIATELY* loses the benefits. Far better to have a basic Sergeant accept instead, assuming there's still one around.

Step out

Step out of the combat.

Not step in for the challenge.

 Super Ready wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
A brilliant example of Blood Angels Sanguinary priests. If you're challenged, they step out in place of the challanged model, because the bonuses they provide are still there.

Not actually a great idea - anything half-decent at challenges will smack the Priest down easily as he's at 1W and I4. That means the rest of the unit *IMMEDIATELY* loses the benefits. Far better to have a basic Sergeant accept instead, assuming there's still one around.

No, he's saying that the Priest refuses the challenge and doesn't fight this turn because he'll still provide his FnP bubble, etc. Which is wrong, because the challenger chooses who doesn't fight, not the challengee. So your priest will bravely refuse the challenge and then the challenger will tell Mephiston to sit this one out while he ganks everyone else. Which doesn't get into the question of if you can refuse a challenge when you have a model that is prohibited from refusing and one that isn't.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
A brilliant example of Blood Angels Sanguinary priests. If you're challenged, they step out in place of the challanged model, because the bonuses they provide are still there.

Not actually a great idea - anything half-decent at challenges will smack the Priest down easily as he's at 1W and I4. That means the rest of the unit *IMMEDIATELY* loses the benefits. Far better to have a basic Sergeant accept instead, assuming there's still one around.

Step out

Step out of the combat.

Not step in for the challenge.

Except you don't get to pick who steps out. Your opponent does. You only pick who steps in.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
A brilliant example of Blood Angels Sanguinary priests. If you're challenged, they step out in place of the challanged model, because the bonuses they provide are still there.

Not actually a great idea - anything half-decent at challenges will smack the Priest down easily as he's at 1W and I4. That means the rest of the unit *IMMEDIATELY* loses the benefits. Far better to have a basic Sergeant accept instead, assuming there's still one around.

Step out

Step out of the combat.

Not step in for the challenge.

Except you don't get to pick who steps out. Your opponent does. You only pick who steps in.

But the effect is the same, as the Priest will not be in the challenge, and there is only a small chance he will die with a 2+ look out sir.

Except that your original assertion was that they were stepping out so someone else wouldn't have to. Presumably that someone else is significantly better at close combat than the priest, or provides some other benefit dependant on him being in the combat proper, or he would have stepped out himself. So the net effect is not the same, as the model you were originally trying to keep in the combat is still no longer attacking. The priest added nothing to the actual combat that he couldn't add from a land raider sitting behind them.

Ok what about this scenario?

You have a monstrous creature character, a tervigon, in combat with an enemy character, plus you have a unit of something(can't think of a nid unit with champions, warriors?) with a champion in the same combat.

The enemy character issues a challenge, can you refuse the challenge, or does your champion have to accept to stop the monstrous creature from accepting?

That's the question. A character on it's own is forbidden from refusing, but that's not necessarily the same as forced to accept. I would expect that someone would have to accept in those circumstances, but that's not actually supported by rules as the Challenge rules aren't written to take multiple combats into account.

I agree with Chrysis that Heroic Stand says the lone-wolf character can't refuse the challenge. If another character accepts the challenge, the lone-wolf has not refused and no rules are broken.

I think it's OK for the champion to accept ahead of the tervigon.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
A brilliant example of Blood Angels Sanguinary priests. If you're challenged, they step out in place of the challanged model, because the bonuses they provide are still there.

Not actually a great idea - anything half-decent at challenges will smack the Priest down easily as he's at 1W and I4. That means the rest of the unit *IMMEDIATELY* loses the benefits. Far better to have a basic Sergeant accept instead, assuming there's still one around.

Step out

Step out of the combat.

Not step in for the challenge.

Except you don't get to pick who steps out. Your opponent does. You only pick who steps in.

But the effect is the same, as the Priest will not be in the challenge, and there is only a small chance he will die with a 2+ look out sir.

Why would you choose a sergeant over a priest? Priest has better WS.

Because if you are facing a Tervigon, like the OP said, the priest will die and you will lose FNP.

If the sarge bites it you lose nothing.

The priest provides FNP to the squad. If the priest dies then the squad immediately loses the FNP benefits and are easier to kill. It's basically playing the odds. A sidelined priest, unable to strike, is more valuable to the unit as a whole than a sergeant, which may or may not live through the challenge.

If you're fighting a monstrous creature you throw the cheap sergeant under the bus if you can challenge or are challenged.

If you fall back or miraculously win the combat you've not risked the guy that gives your unit a huge buff to their survival. If you get stuck for a 2nd turn with the MC you may want to refuse a challange and drop 3-5 men from the squad to fall back and keep the FNP but you may want to throw the priest under the bus to keep your unit in combat for another player turn and hold the MC up from killing anything else.