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Their has been some debate about this and I figure it deserves a thread and a poll.

My personal opinion is yes, especially in light of what happened to the thunder warriors, I think he was going to keep some of his legions and sacrifice others. It would have made sense for big E to help Agron when the battle, it would have made have also been smart to offer to cure him of the butchers nails but he didn't do that did he, I think he hoped the world eaters die a slow death as usefull madmen, I think he hoped Curze would suffer a similar fate due to Necrosis that he engineered in him. Come on do you really think a guy who can see into the future would not have realized that his sons had genetic defects, I also think the reason he didd'nt appoint Sanginius as Warmaster was that he and his Legion were also meant to fall, only later.

So why did he go after Curze and not the World Eaters? Why send an assassin to kill Curze rather than Agron. Because Curze was somehow keeping himself and his Legion together unlike Agron who the Emp thought would die a natural death. I also think that Curze might have been given more info on Chaos given his knolege about it when confronting corrupted Word Bearers. E man probably thought Curze would be the perfect guy to wipe out the last worshipers of Chaos and then later be put down erasing both knowledge of Chaos and any info on the less respectable aspects of the Great Crusade.

Given this information it makes more sense why Pertuburo would rebel if he learned about what the E man was planning for him and his brothers. Maybe he really did have no choice but to rebel.

I also don't see how what Curze did that was so bad given how Guilliman virus bombs whole planets just because they sided with the rebels in the Horus Heresy, I doubt that the Horus Heresy just magicly made him evil enough to order a genocide(the scouring) which makes everything done by all the other Primarchs pale in comparison..

1. The Emperor couldn't see the future.
2. Necrosis? I don't think it's the word you're looking for since it has no application to the Night Lords.
3. The Emperor didn't send anyone after Curze; that was long after the Emperor was neutralized.
4. ALL of the primarchs were betrayed: multiple times by both sides of the Heresy.

1. Its been stated in fluff that he could
2. Curze suffered from both physical and mental degeneration, its been stated in several books.
3. Its been stated that the first assassin was sent before the heresy even began, this was stated in Lord of the Night.
4. Over generalization.
5. I'm right.

I see a lot of speculation here, with zero evidence.

Curze was tolerated, if not liked during the Great Crusade. His methods were brutal, but effective and noted to work.

He only really came under censure once he went completely off the rails; attacking Dorn and blowing up his own planet. That's when he crossed the line from tolerated to a rogue entity and a liability.

There was no betrayal, Curze and his legion simply sank deeper into madness and sadism, so much so they could no longer be tolerated.

Guilliman bombing, as a last resort, known rebellious worlds which had turned traitor is very different from the Night Lords skinning people and such for fun.

I don't know about betrayed but they were definately used by the emperor as long as he needed them and then cast aside when they went too far.

They were created and used as a terror weapon and then censored for being a terror weapon when their acts became too extreme for even the emperor to handle.

That I believe is what caused Night Haunter to go nuts and blow up Nostramo, before siding with Horus.

The Thousand Sons I believe were betrayed though. By the Emperor (he sent the Space Wolves after them), Horus (he told Russ to destroy Magnus not capture him) and by Magnus himself (he made a deal with Tzeentch which went very wrong).

rohansoldier wrote:

That I believe is what caused Night Haunter to go nuts and blow up Nostramo, before siding with Horus.

Curze was already nuts. It simply got worse as time went on. he destroyed Nostromo cause it returned to the way it used to be before he landed on the planet.

The Thousand Sons I believe were betrayed though. By the Emperor (he sent the Space Wolves after them), Horus (he told Russ to destroy Magnus not capture him) and by Magnus himself (he made a deal with Tzeentch which went very wrong).

Magnus also destroyed the Emp's webway project, got people working for the Emp in the webway project killed, caused Terra's population to be mind raped and die and nearly caused Terra to be eaten by a daemon horde.

Its not betrayal. Its punishment.

I'm pretty sure the Imperium sent an assassin after Kurze and not Angron because Angron... was a daemon-prince.

Kind of hard to send an assassin into the warp.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:


My personal opinion is yes, especially in light of what happened to the thunder warriors, I think he was going to keep some of his legions and sacrifice others. It would have made sense for big E to help Agron when the battle, it would have made have also been smart to offer to cure him of the butchers nails but he didn't do that did he,

The Butcher's nails couldn't be removed without killing Angron anyway. I guess you could say the Emp decided that he might as well use Angron as he is and then purge him when he is no longer useful.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
1. Its been stated in fluff that he could

The Chaos Gods were blocking his foresight for a significant amount of time. What would (was likely to) happen to the Primarchs and himself was hidden from him.

3. Its been stated that the first assassin was sent before the heresy even began, this was stated in Lord of the Night.

This information did not come from a particularly reliable source and neither was it said how said why the assassin was considered Imperial. It baffles belief for the Emperor to send a mere assassin against a Primarch, especially before the Officio Assassinorum had been formed (hence the one sent would likely be of lower quality) and when the Primarch had an entire Legion to protect him.

Generally, no, I don't think that any of the Primarchs were exactly betrayed by the Emperor. Lorgar probably should have been handled differently, but it's not as if he had a sensible reaction to what happened anyway. His personality may have led him to the Ruinous Powers regardless of how he was stopped from worshipping the Emperor.

rohansoldier wrote:The Thousand Sons I believe were betrayed though. By the Emperor (he sent the Space Wolves after them

As said, that's not betrayal. At this point, it's not even punishment. It's bringing someone to trial (\to help fix the probably they just made).

I don't think they were betrayed Zso. Not in the sense you mean.

They weren't "betrayed" insofar as just the Emperor didn't know how to properly deal with each individual son without having them rebel. The Emperor may be the master of mankind, but he comes off as having zero social skills and maybe he had a case of the psychic aspergers.

 Harriticus wrote:
They weren't "betrayed" insofar as just the Emperor didn't know how to properly deal with each individual son without having them rebel. The Emperor may be the master of mankind, but he comes off as having zero social skills and maybe he had a case of the psychic aspergers.

His psyker powers were fine. The Chaos gods were fething with him on that arena.

Anyway, Corax, Gulliman, Dorn, Vulkan, that khan guy and even Horus had no problem with the Emp. Horus was screwed over by the Chaos gods.

I don't really think the Night Lords were betrayed. From Curze's point of view they were betrayed and persecuted for certain. However, from ADB's Soul Hunter series:

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
It would have made sense for big E to help Agron when the battle, it would have made have also been smart to offer to cure him of the butchers nails but he didn't do that did he,

Removing the Butchers Nails would have killed Angron. Even the Emperor could not remove them.

This is definitely covered in the Butcher's Nails audio Drama and i believe in Forge World's Horus Heresy Book One: Betrayal as well.

They weren't betrayed, they simply went too far beyond their mandate. Of course, it could be argued that the end result should have been obvious given Kurze's custom of punishing the mildest infractions by skinning your children live on global television, but the Emperor was nothing if not a creature of cold necessity. Also, given Kurze's madness/corruption/degeneration/wanton sadism/whatever and his twisted visions of the future, there was quite a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy. "My daddy is going to punish me for doing bad stuff, so I'm going to do tons of bad stuff to force him to punish me." The Night Lords can't claim to be betrayed, considering that by the time of the Heresy, the Legion was full of murderers and cutthroats who didn't give two gaks about the ideals of the Great Crusades and were just getting their jollies off on fear.

As for Angron, not only could he not be "cured of the Butcher's Nails", the Emperor could not assist him in battle because the planet capitulated to Imperial rule. At that point, as far as the Imperium was concerned, Angron was leading a mob of rebels against the rightful rulers of the planet and the Imperium has never been soft on rebels. Angron was saved because he was valuable, but the slaves with him were very expendable. This is why Angron was so pissed when he finally returned to his home planet in Betrayer, and found the place was still being run by descendants of the same family that enslaved him.

Really, both Angron and Curze were doomed from the start, and if the Emperor "had to do" anything, it's kill them both outright. The fact that they got a pass really makes you wonder what sort of infractions II and XI committed. Likewise with Lorgar, people like to whine and moan about how the Emperor treated him so unfairly, but if their discussion is any indication, they've had this whole divinity argument time and time again, and the Emperor finally had enough of it. If anything, again the Emperor was far too lenient with his errant son.

And regarding the Thousand Sons, it's hard to say they were betrayed when they were quite heedless in their mad rush for knowledge and later flagrantly disobeyed the Emperor's orders (regardless of how silly and short-sighted those orders may have been). They were, however, victims of bigotry (Valdor and the Wolves) and conspiracy (Horus[demon?] and Wolves again), which started the ball rolling that culminated in the Webway breach and the burning of Prospero. The Grey Knights clearly demonstrate that Magnus' vision of a humanity that could out-Eldar the Eldar was quite possible. Here once more, the Emperor was probably too lenient. He should have soul-bound/whatever Grey Knights have for protection the whole Legion right after Nicea and the Heresy would have never gotten off the ground.

 Omegus wrote:

And regarding the Thousand Sons, it's hard to say they were betrayed when they were quite heedless in their mad rush for knowledge and later flagrantly disobeyed the Emperor's orders (regardless of how silly and short-sighted those orders may have been). They were, however, victims of bigotry (Valdor and the Wolves) and conspiracy (Horus[demon?] and Wolves again), which started the ball rolling that culminated in the Webway breach and the burning of Prospero. The Grey Knights clearly demonstrate that Magnus' vision of a humanity that could out-Eldar the Eldar was quite possible. Here once more, the Emperor was probably too lenient. He should have soul-bound/whatever Grey Knights have for protection the whole Legion right after Nicea and the Heresy would have never gotten off the ground.

The Nikea decree can be seen as an attempt to try and make sure the legions not screw around with the Warp. Just look at what happens in the DOW games even the sucky SoulStorm. Psykers cause betrayal or feth over thousands or even millions of people and allow the Chaos gods or daemons to influence the material realm. Hell if Magnus had obeyed the Emp's orders to stop screwing around with the Warp, what happened to him and his Legion may not ever have happened. His precious sorcery achieved nothing but destroy the Emp's webway project.

I have a theory that the Emp was planning on having the Legion of the World Eaters and Night Lords and their Primarchs purged as soon as the GC and Webway project were completed.

An untrained psyker mind is the literal devil's playground.

 Omegus wrote:
An untrained psyker mind is the literal devil's playground.

I know this. So?

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
I think he was going to keep some of his legions and sacrifice others.

Based on?

 Manchu wrote:

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
I think he was going to keep some of his legions and sacrifice others.

Based on?

The Emp's "apparent" purge of the Thunder Warriors and the purge of the two missing Primarchs.

The Emperor did not keep any armies of Thunder Warriors around, however, so it's hardly proof that he intended to keep any of his SM Legions around while terminating others according to some planned obsolesce. We don't know anything about the Missing Legions, so anything said about them -- even just repeating what little mention they get in the HH series -- is going to be purely speculative.

To me, the example of the Thunder Warriors shows that the Emperor could have also intended to eventually terminate the SM Legions. (The SM were aware of the fate of the Thunder Warriors, btw.) But it does not show that he intended to terminate some and retain others.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
An untrained psyker mind is the literal devil's playground.

I know this. So?

So the proclamation on Nicaea basically mandates that Space Marine psykers remain untrained, and thus pose a huge risk to the rest of the Legion.

Manchu wrote:

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
I think he was going to keep some of his legions and sacrifice others.

Based on?

Just like the Thunder Warriors were too barbaric and unfit for the next stage of his plan*, so too would the Legions unable to accept or fit into their new roles in the post-Crusade galaxy be disposed of. Not everyone can be like Guilliman or Sanguinius.

*This could have very well been a PR move; the Thunder Warriors ruthlessly subjugated Terra and undoubtedly became figures of dread for any survivors, so getting rid of them helped the Emperor distance himself from that image and appear more the benevolent ruler. After all, according to Outcast Dead, no one seems to connect the dots that the "Lightning Warrior" who plunged the planet into another era of battles and cleansed it of the Psyker kings is the Emperor, so presumably he wants to keep it that way.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
1. The Emperor couldn't see the future.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
1. Its been stated in fluff that he could

If so then how did he missed something as big as Horus betrayal and Lorgar and Erebus an Fulgrim fall to Chaos?

Indicated, maybe - proven, no. Eldar can to see into the future and how many times their vision turns out fake?

5. I'm right.

Actually you are not. Emperor planned to have all Primarch return to Terra after the ending of the Great Crusade to live with him in the Imperial Palace and he planned for his Legionaries to became artist, musicians and politicians who would run his new Empire.

WE and NL would be teachers of martial arts or law enforcers, he would not brought them down.

 Omegus wrote:
So the proclamation on Nicaea basically mandates that Space Marine psykers remain untrained

No -- it merely disbanded the Librarius departments and forbade those trained by such departments to use psychic powers any more. It did not say those with pscyhic potential could not be trained at all.

 Omegus wrote:
Just like the Thunder Warriors were too barbaric

Like I said, that's a fine precedent for getting rid of the SM Legions. It's no precedent for keeping any of them.

 Omegus wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
An untrained psyker mind is the literal devil's playground.

I know this. So?

So the proclamation on Nicaea basically mandates that Space Marine psykers remain untrained, and thus pose a huge risk to the rest of the Legion.

I don't know the details of the decree so I'm just going from what you guys have stated. But wasn't that decree for the psykers already in the legions. Presumably, any new psykers would be sent to the Astropath teaching places.

*This could have very well been a PR move; the Thunder Warriors ruthlessly subjugated Terra and undoubtedly became figures of dread for any survivors, so getting rid of them helped the Emperor distance himself from that image and appear more the benevolent ruler. After all, according to Outcast Dead, no one seems to connect the dots that the "Lightning Warrior" who plunged the planet into another era of battles and cleansed it of the Psyker kings is the Emperor, so presumably he wants to keep it that way.

IIRC, the Emp was simply another warlord fighting the other warlords before he became the Emperor. So warfare was already happening.

As for the pysker kings? They are described as screwing the people over by...just read the below:

The Outcast Dead Page 153-154 wrote:Kai had heard a bowdlerised version of the early years of the psi-wars, but his knowledge was sketchy at best. That period of psyker history was not well taught at the City of Sight. No one wanted to remember a time where psychic powers almost destroyed the world, least of all the psykers themselves.
"Eventually it came to light that the great states of the world were simply pawns for powerful individuals who set nation against nation for their own savage amusement. No normal telepath could have done this, only one with the unique power of a cognoscynth."
...
"You know the lure of psychic powers, Zulane. Despite the dangers, every astropath acquires a taste for using their powers. Once your mind touches the immaterium, it craves that wellspring of limitless potential like nothing else. Do you remember the first time you used your powers?"
"Yes," said Kai, "it was intoxicating."
"Mistress Diyos?"
"My mind could reach across the heavens, and I felt as though I was part of the fabric of the universe itself"
"‘Indeed, but no matter how many times you achieve communion after that first time, it is never quite the same,’ said Gregoras. ‘Every communion is dangerous, but you still willingly hurl your mind into a realm of terrible danger just to feel that rush of its power again"
..
"And if you stop trying…"
"You get psi-sick,’ finished Athena. ‘Your mind aches for what it once had."
..
"The cognoscynths could maintain that first sensation," said Gregoras. "Every time they touched the warp was like the first time. They became addicted to the power, and it is said they were virtually immune to the dangers of the warp. No immaterial creature could touch them, and without limits on their power and ambitions, the cognoscynths became obsessed with dominating lesser men, believing that they alone could control the destiny of the species. And they had the power to do it."

The Outcast Dead Page 155 wrote:"The legends say a great warrior with golden eyes arose, the only man whose will was strong enough to resist the influence of the cognoscynths. He rallied the armies of those few kingdoms left and trained a cadre of warriors like no other, stronger, faster and tougher than any of the great bands of old. One by one, they stormed the citadels of the cognoscynths on the backs of great silver flying machines. Not ever the most powerful cognoscynth could dominate the golden-eyed warrior, and every time he slew one of these psyker-devils, the enslaved armies were freed from bondage, and willingly joined the forces of the great warrior. It took another thirty years, but eventually his armies brought down the last cognoscynth, and the people of the world were free again."
"And what became of the warrior?" asked Kai.
"No one knows for sure. Some legends say he was killed in the battle with the last cognoscynth, others that he tried to take power himself and was killed by his men."
....
"Some even say the warrior still lives among us, waiting for the day when the power of the cognoscynths returns."
"But you don’t believe that?" asked Athena.
"No, of course not. To imagine that any such being could still exist is the stuff of children’s tales and foolish saga poets. No, that warrior, if he even existed as the legends recall, is long since dust and bones."

I think the Night Lords were betrayed by Kurze.

Considering the emperor created a bunch of defects that were even more screwed over by chaos I hardly think the word "betrayed" applies.

There was certainly precedent for a general upcoming house cleaning.

A phrase that more accurately reflects it is "abandoned to their fates". It was just dumb luck that they took him down with them, and not a moment too soon. That megalomaniac might have really screwed over the galaxy.

If his webway project had been successful then chaos could have erupted everywhere. Quite frankly they should have left him alone.

clively wrote:
Considering the emperor created a bunch of defects that were even more screwed over by chaos I hardly think the word "betrayed" applies.

There was certainly precedent for a general upcoming house cleaning.

A phrase that more accurately reflects it is "abandoned to their fates". It was just dumb luck that they took him down with them.

What defects? They gained there craziness after they got stolen by Chaos.

You're assuming chaos mutation is the only defect. There we're certainly personality issues baked right in.

Every single one of them had a single trait that was turned to the max. You can't do that and expect a "balanced" individual. Unhinged is more like it. Waiting for the right trigger to set them off.

The fact that so many loyalist primarchs simply went away is proof enough that they didn't have what it takes to translate into governors and administrators. No, they knew the truth of it and realized they were always just a bridge to another shore.