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So, a while ago I had a game with a friend, who used Dark Eldar. He made a bladevane attack on a unit of mine, and began to gather up a bunch of dice, one for each bike. I know with many units, if we are called to roll dice to determine a number of attacks, we roll one, and apply said results to the whole unit. I asked him to roll one die for the whole unit, and do it that way, and explained why, and he did... But now, I'm reading through his codex and I'm not so sure I was right. The wording on the bladevane rule seems....iffy. I even went and checked the FAQ, but no success.

So which is it, 1 d3 and use for entire unit?

Or 1 d3 per bike?

I don't think it really matters, unless you're saying the 1d3 is the total number of attacks the entire unit makes. If you're doing 1d3 times the number of jetbikes just so you don't have to roll a bunch of dice, that's fine if your opponent agrees, but each bike that passes over a unit makes the 1d3 hits.

I'd be a bit flustered if my opponent tried to tell me that my unit of 10 jetbikes could only make 1d3 hits TOTAL for the round. lol

Yeah, he lucked out and rolled a 3 on the d3, so my Plaguemarines took 21 hits.

Was just unsure about the whole thing...

I can see that rolling 7 d3's would provide more of a stable number, but 7xd3 would be prone to swing towards highs and lows...

Yeah, to be honest, I would just go with whichever method my opponent preferred, in that case. You're ultimately always going to average the same 20 hits* in the long term regardless of how it is done on a micro basis.

*with 10 jetbikes

RAW is 1D3 per bike. If he has 7 bikes, he rolls 7 dice and figures it out.

I play DE and there's no way I would do 1D3 * 7. It just wouldn't be fair to my opponent.

How would it be different then rolling for 1d3 shots by rolling 1d3 and multiplying by the model count as per pg 51 and the ork codex?

 Gravmyr wrote:
How would it be different then rolling for 1d3 shots by rolling 1d3 and multiplying by the model count as per pg 51 and the ork codex?

You have a 1 in 3 chance of causing maximum hits with D3 x [squad size], as opposed to [squad size] x D3 which will get a more average number.

clively wrote:
RAW is 1D3 per bike. If he has 7 bikes, he rolls 7 dice and figures it out.

I play DE and there's no way I would do 1D3 * 7. It just wouldn't be fair to my opponent.

This.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Gravmyr wrote:
How would it be different then rolling for 1d3 shots by rolling 1d3 and multiplying by the model count as per pg 51 and the ork codex?

You have a 1 in 3 chance of causing maximum hits with D3 x [squad size], as opposed to [squad size] x D3 which will get a more average number.

You also have a 1 in 3 chance of causing minimum hits in the first instance. As I said before, I'd be willing to do it in whichever method my opponent preferred, so long as we stuck to the same method throughout the course of the game.

1d3 x 7 bikes

you'll get either 7 hits, 14 or 21 hits.

1d3 per bike. so 7 d3

anywhere between 7 and 21. Much Fairer

Bloodhorror wrote:
1d3 x 7 bikes

you'll get either 7 hits, 14 or 21 hits.

1d3 per bike. so 7 d3

anywhere between 7 and 21. Much Fairer

So you'll get 18 hits instead of 21, or 8 hits instead of 7. Ultimately, both methods will average out to be the same over your gaming career, so I don't know how you're posing the "fairer" argument. Both methods have a minimum of 7 hits, a maximum of 21 hits, and an average of 14 hits.

The first method doesn't offer any more benefit to the attacker than to the defender, or vice versa. With the first method, you have a 1 in 3 chance of scoring maximum hits, or minimum hits, which cancels each other out. The last 1 in 3 shot is for average number of hits.

Using the other method, yes, it will be less likely to get maximum hits, but it will also be less likely to get minimum hits. It will be weighted towards 14, which is just as advantageous/disadvantageous as using the other method.

Because of this, I will always defer to my opponent over such issues, seeking to enjoy playing the game as much as possible while avoiding rules disagreements.



TL;DR - It doesn't really matter. They're both mathematically identical in the long run.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Bloodhorror wrote:
1d3 x 7 bikes

you'll get either 7 hits, 14 or 21 hits.

1d3 per bike. so 7 d3

anywhere between 7 and 21. Much Fairer

So you'll get 18 hits instead of 21, or 8 hits instead of 7. Ultimately, both methods will average out to be the same over your gaming career, so I don't know how you're posing the "fairer" argument. Both methods have a minimum of 7 hits, a maximum of 21 hits, and an average of 14 hits.

The first method doesn't offer any more benefit to the attacker than to the defender, or vice versa. With the first method, you have a 1 in 3 chance of scoring maximum hits, or minimum hits, which cancels each other out. The last 1 in 3 shot is for average number of hits.

Using the other method, yes, it will be less likely to get maximum hits, but it will also be less likely to get minimum hits. It will be weighted towards 14, which is just as advantageous/disadvantageous as using the other method.

Because of this, I will always defer to my opponent over such issues, seeking to enjoy playing the game as much as possible while avoiding rules disagreements.



TL;DR - It doesn't really matter. They're both mathematically identical in the long run.

Individual games are not long run. So in any individual game you are not going to roll enough times for statistical validity.

 Insurgency Walker wrote:

Individual games are not long run. So in any individual game you are not going to roll enough times for statistical validity.

This is true. For the individual game in which it is handled with the first method, that 1 dice roll could be greatly advantageous for either person, or it could be generically average. Each outcome has an equal chance of occurring. While it is certainly less weighted towards the average on any individual roll, I fail to see how it is "unfair" to either player.

The rule is 1D3 per bike. Any other method is a house rule.

So if you have 7 bikes you roll 7D3 for the number of hits.

The problem is multiple types of bladevane attacks...
Caltrops d6 S6
Don't recall... D3 S4 pinning
Regular d3 S4

I would opt for having them roll one dice per bike... I want the odds of maximum and minimum to be low with a bell curve around the middle. So six bikes with two caldrops is going to usually do the average of 8 S4 and 7 S6 attacks not an equal chance of doing 4,8 or 12 and 2 through 12 attacks. Otherwise we are going to look back at games and say he won/lost in large part due to 3 or 4 dice rolls.

Exactly

Multiple types of these attacks forces you to roll seperatly.

DAaddict wrote:
The problem is multiple types of bladevane attacks...
I would opt for having them roll one dice per bike...

And I would be absolutely fine with that. That is how I would attempt to roll to begin with. I was simply stating that ultimately, it doesn't matter to me if the opponent wants to do it the other way. I'm all for moving on with the game to more interesting rules to debate!