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I know a 40k marine company is 100ish marines strong but I was wondering if anyone knows how many marines were in a company before the legions were split into chapters?

each legion was made up of 10 or more chapters and each chapter was roughly 1000 marines.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
each legion was made up of 10 or more chapters and each chapter was roughly 1000 marines.

The legions were nowhere near as standardized as the current chapters are, nor did they separate themselves into chapters like that, and every legion was far larger than 10,000 marines. For instance the Blood Angels, at the time of Signus Prime, had roughly 120,000 marines split up into 300 companies. Each legion was organized as their primarch saw fit, so there is far more variety in pre-heresy organization.

IIRC, in Know No Fear, each Ultramarines company had 1000 marines, and each chapter had 10 companies.

Orblivion wrote:

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
each legion was made up of 10 or more chapters and each chapter was roughly 1000 marines.

The legions were nowhere near as standardized as the current chapters are, nor did they separate themselves into chapters like that, and every legion was far larger than 10,000 marines. For instance the Blood Angels, at the time of Signus Prime, had roughly 120,000 marines split up into 300 companies. Each legion was organized as their primarch saw fit, so there is far more variety in pre-heresy organization.

i did say 10 or more chapters and roughly 1000 marines. like you said, the pre-heresy legions varied a lot, mostly on the whim of their primarch.
the horus heresy: betrayal book breaks this down pretty nicely.

Companies were around then, while there wasn't a standard it appears they were around the same size as a codex company, although they may have had more marines as dedicated support(driving speeders, bikes, vehicles, etc...)

Like people have said, every Legion had different numbers per company, Ultramarines had 25 Chapters, each consisting of 10 companies, with each company being made of 1000 Astartes. But then Death Guard only had 7 companies, and Blood Angels had 300 Companies of about 400 Astartes I think.

Orblivion wrote:
The legions were nowhere near as standardized as the current chapters are, nor did they separate themselves into chapters like that, and every legion was far larger than 10,000 marines. For instance the Blood Angels, at the time of Signus Prime, had roughly 120,000 marines split up into 300 companies. Each legion was organized as their primarch saw fit, so there is far more variety in pre-heresy organization.

Actually the Thousand Sons numbered just over 10,000 Marines, though they were the smallest Legion.

It depends on the Legion though. The Ultramarines are sort of similar to 40k Marines in structure, companies are a hundred marines, chapters 1,000, and IIRC there was something like 250 chapters in the Ultramarines.

Void__Dragon wrote:
It depends on the Legion though. The Ultramarines are sort of similar to 40k Marines in structure, companies are a hundred marines, chapters 1,000, and IIRC there was something like 250 chapters in the Ultramarines.

I believe this is correct. This is where the 40k chapter structure came from - as the Ultramarines were whittled down over the Heresy and the Scouring, they kept the company structure but probably consolidated into fewer and fewer chapters, which became their second founding chapters in the end.

Interestingly enough, you can approximate attrition during the Heresy from the numbers we have for pre-Heresy Legion strengths and the known number of second founding chapters. The Ultras, for instance, started out over 250,000 strong and broke up into something like 24 chapters, so their losses over the Heresy were over 90%, not even counting replacements. Numbers are similar or worse for all the other loyalist legions.

In the Battle of Calth alone they lost like half their forces in the opening minutes of the battle.

I wonder...how big is the word bearers legion, coz there were loads of them on Istvaan, than their entire chapter attacked Calth?

The Wolves of Fenris were big Legion too, I think.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Actually the Thousand Sons numbered just over 10,000 Marines, though they were the smallest Legion.

It depends on the Legion though. The Ultramarines are sort of similar to 40k Marines in structure, companies are a hundred marines, chapters 1,000, and IIRC there was something like 250 chapters in the Ultramarines.

As a note the Ultramarines size of 250,000 was introduced in the Horus Heresy artbooks, wherein it was stated that even even the smallest legion numbered 100,000. Some authors still like to describe the smaller legions as having circa 10k but this is due to them not "getting the memo" - or in finest Black Library tradition only reading half the memo.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


Actually the Thousand Sons numbered just over 10,000 Marines, though they were the smallest Legion.

It depends on the Legion though. The Ultramarines are sort of similar to 40k Marines in structure, companies are a hundred marines, chapters 1,000, and IIRC there was something like 250 chapters in the Ultramarines.

Incorrect.

The Ultramarine's companies are 1000 strong, their Chapter's 10,000 strong.

@OP Company size varied throughout the Legions. The Ultramarines for example had fixed companies of 1000 marines. The Sons of Horus by contrast had flexible companies anywhere between a few dozen and one thousand. In their legion the Company was the highest organizational unit.

@everyone. Originally the legions were considered to be around 10,000 strong. This is back is the days of Index Astartes, an exact number was never outright stated though. This carried over to the first few Horus Heresy books until it was retconned that the average size was around 100,000. This is now the new and correct average size.


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 Phosis T'Kar Jr wrote:
I wonder...how big is the word bearers legion, coz there were loads of them on Istvaan, than their entire chapter attacked Calth?

The Wolves of Fenris were big Legion too, I think.

The Word Bearers were the second largest at 200,000 or so. They went on a massive recruiting drive after their censure by the Emperor and as part of their 'evil plan' for the heresy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:



Interestingly enough, you can approximate attrition during the Heresy from the numbers we have for pre-Heresy Legion strengths and the known number of second founding chapters. The Ultras, for instance, started out over 250,000 strong and broke up into something like 24 chapters, so their losses over the Heresy were over 90%, not even counting replacements. Numbers are similar or worse for all the other loyalist legions.

Not quite true. We know that there were actually 400 or so Second Founding Chapters created (from the Grey Knight codex). Those 24 are just those mentioned in that particular source. If that were all the Second Founding chapters then it would mean there were only 40,000 Space Marines until the next founding. That's ridiculous when you consider the multitude of threats facing the Imperium and the greater numbers of Traitor Marines left. Besides the Second Founding is supposed to have been the largest, if it was and only produced that many marines there's no way we'd have gotten to the 1,000,000 we have in m41.

 rems01 wrote:

Not quite true. We know that there were actually 400 or so Second Founding Chapters created (from the Grey Knight codex). Those 24 are just those mentioned in that particular source.

No. It says there were 23 UM successors in total. This and 400 figure from GK book can't obviously both be correct. But this does not mean one of them is more correct, they're just two sources that disagree. I don't like the 400 figure, as it conflicts with the notion that second founding chapters are pretty rare.

If that were all the Second Founding chapters then it would mean there were only 40,000 Space Marines until the next founding. That's ridiculous when you consider the multitude of threats facing the Imperium and the greater numbers of Traitor Marines left. Besides the Second Founding is supposed to have been the largest, if it was and only produced that many marines there's no way we'd have gotten to the 1,000,000 we have in m41.

Ten thousand years is pretty damn long time to make more marines.

 Crimson wrote:


No. It says there were 23 UM successors in total. This and 400 figure from GK book can't obviously both be correct. But this does not mean one of them is more correct, they're just two sources that disagree. I don't like the 400 figure, as it conflicts with the notion that second founding chapters are pretty rare.

Ten thousand years is pretty damn long time to make more marines.

400 is still less than half, so you could still consider it 'rare'. Not to mention not all of them would still be around. Besides is there in fact the notion that 2nd foundings are rare?

It's a long time to make marines yes but there have only been 24 more foundings and the Second was the largest. If the 2nd only produced a maximum of 40, the others being much smaller, most in fact for dedicated causes, then it's simply not enough for there to be 1,000,000 marines.

Given the size of the legions i can't image there only being 40 or so second founding chapters. That's a 96% casualty rate.

 rems01 wrote:

400 is still less than half, so you could still consider it 'rare'. Not to mention not all of them would still be around. Besides is there in fact the notion that 2nd foundings are rare?

I have the impression that they're rare, and they certainly used to be. We never hear any other second founding chapters except those same chapters that have existed for about a decade, and GW has not created any new ones. In any case to me it seems just wrong if there are hundreds of second founding chapters around.

It's a long time to make marines yes but there have only been 24 more foundings and the Second was the largest. If the 2nd only produced a maximum of 40, the others being much smaller, most in fact for dedicated causes, then it's simply not enough for there to be 1,000,000 marines.

Given the size of the legions i can't image there only being 40 or so second founding chapters. That's a 96% casualty rate.

But where you get 40? If UM was split to 24, this doesn't meant that there was only 40 in total. We don't know the number of successors of other legions, except that they had less than UM, and that SW had only one. There could have easily been about hundred second founding chapters.

It's also likely a second founding chapter was founded with less than 1000 marines.
Most legions didn't use chapter as an organisation IIRC that came after the end of the HH.
Incidentally the SW were one of the smaller legions.

 Crimson wrote:


But where you get 40? If UM was split to 24, this doesn't meant that there was only 40 in total. We don't know the number of successors of other legions, except that they had less than UM, and that SW had only one. There could have easily been about hundred second founding chapters.

Lexicanum has a list of known Second Founding Chapters. I rounded it up to 40.

Besides it's logically consistent (if we accept that the Ultramarines only produced 23). The Ultramarines produce 23 right? The largest, most well equipped legion with the infrastructure of an empire to draw on. It's mentioned that the Ultramarines contributed two thirds of the second founding and all chapters today. So if all the other legions combined only produce a third of the total founding then you're not getting any more than 40 Second Founding chapters.

 rems01 wrote:

Lexicanum has a list of known Second Founding Chapters. I rounded it up to 40.

But there probably is more than those. We know names of only one third of UM successors. There probably are unnamed successors of other legions as well.

Besides it's logically consistent (if we accept that the Ultramarines only produced 23). The Ultramarines produce 23 right? The largest, most well equipped legion with the infrastructure of an empire to draw on. It's mentioned that the Ultramarines contributed two thirds of the second founding and all chapters today. So if all the other legions combined only produce a third of the total founding then you're not getting any more than 40 Second Founding chapters.

Where is it said that UM were two thirds of the marines already during the second founding? They're 2/3 now, but I assumed this was due the high lords favouring their geneseed in the creation of new chapters for ten thousand years.

 Crimson wrote:

 rems01 wrote:

Not quite true. We know that there were actually 400 or so Second Founding Chapters created (from the Grey Knight codex). Those 24 are just those mentioned in that particular source.

No. It says there were 23 UM successors in total. This and 400 figure from GK book can't obviously both be correct. But this does not mean one of them is more correct, they're just two sources that disagree. I don't like the 400 figure, as it conflicts with the notion that second founding chapters are pretty rare.

I suspect the inconsistency (depending on when the 23 number arose) is due to the change of Legion size from 10,000 to 100,000 during the Horus Heresy series.

To me, the larger 400 numbers seems more logical.

@Crimson So we agree that there were more than '40' Second Founding chapters, just not on how many more. Might i ask how many you're envisaging, if not the 400 given in the GK codex?

@Dave. Agreed, it's another holdover of the 10,000 era. Given the new set of numbers such a small amount of second founding chapters just doesn't make sense. The latest SM codex which contains the Apocrypha of Skaros which gives the 23 UM successors part was written before 100,000 became the new standard. I'd expect the next codex to emphasize that's just the 23 that particular document notes (i mean come on it is an Apocrypha after all) and that the Second Founding was in fact very large.

 rems01 wrote:
@Crimson So we agree that there were more than '40' Second Founding chapters, just not on how many more. Might i ask how many you're envisaging, if not the 400 given in the GK codex?

70 -100. UM was split into 24, others got about ten each (some more, some less.)

BTW, what's up with Salamanders? Why there are no known successors?

 Crimson wrote:

 rems01 wrote:
@Crimson So we agree that there were more than '40' Second Founding chapters, just not on how many more. Might i ask how many you're envisaging, if not the 400 given in the GK codex?

70 -100. UM was split into 24, others got about ten each (some more, some less.)

BTW, what's up with Salamanders? Why there are no known successors?

Because they didn't even number enough to form a single codex chapter after the Heresy, and they've been struggling to maintain their numbers ever since. In fact I believe they organize their chapter into 7 companies rather than the usual 10 because of their low numbers.

Orblivion wrote:

Because they didn't even number enough to form a single codex chapter after the Heresy, and they've been struggling to maintain their numbers ever since. In fact I believe they organize their chapter into 7 companies rather than the usual 10 because of their low numbers.

But with the new mega-legion sizes that hardly makes sense.

 Crimson wrote:

Orblivion wrote:

Because they didn't even number enough to form a single codex chapter after the Heresy, and they've been struggling to maintain their numbers ever since. In fact I believe they organize their chapter into 7 companies rather than the usual 10 because of their low numbers.

But with the new mega-legion sizes that hardly makes sense.

A lot of things don't make sense in 40k. But I guess it could be explained as the Salamanders taking the worst losses at Isstvan.

 Crimson wrote:

Orblivion wrote:

Because they didn't even number enough to form a single codex chapter after the Heresy, and they've been struggling to maintain their numbers ever since. In fact I believe they organize their chapter into 7 companies rather than the usual 10 because of their low numbers.

But with the new mega-legion sizes that hardly makes sense.

Considering the Raven Guard went from 80,000 to 4000 at Isstvan, I think it makes sense myself.

Exactly. The Salamanders, like the Raven Guard were annihilated at the drop site massacres. The two legions sustained over 90% losses.

The Raven Guard replenished their losses faster and were able to form a couple second founding chapters due to Corax's use of the dangerous dark age tech.

The Salamanders were a small legion to begin with. Coupled with Nocturne's low population and you have a legion (and then chapter) with small numbers and low replenishment rates.

 Crimson wrote:

Orblivion wrote:

Because they didn't even number enough to form a single codex chapter after the Heresy, and they've been struggling to maintain their numbers ever since. In fact I believe they organize their chapter into 7 companies rather than the usual 10 because of their low numbers.

But with the new mega-legion sizes that hardly makes sense.

It was a long brutal war, far longer than the oh so awesome Index Astartes authors would have you believe, there were lots of futile last stands on the way to Terra, not just Isstvan:


"Brother-Captain Fenlan opened the Rhino’ s hatch and poked his head out. He caught the faint stench of sulfur in the air before his respirator rattled into life and filtered it out. Checking the seals of his suit, he cast a glance towards the enemy.

The Traitors were just visible on the horizon, the pure white of their uniforms a stark contrast to the featureless red stand that stretched as far as the eye could see. He tried to make an estimate of their numbers, but the heat haze distorted his vision; he guessed there were about five thousand, but it could well have been twice that number. As for his own side, they had just under seven thousand.

The two sides charged. Fenlan’ s Salamanders drove into the center of the Death Guards, a column of dark green cutting
through the Traitor’ s white. Along the edges of the column there were bright veins of flashing light as the Marines exchanged shots. With painful slowness the green mass began to spread sideways, clearing itself a path with heavy bolter fire, pushing forward over the bodies of the fallen.

The rest of the Salamanders’ swung around the Death Guards’ flunks, trying to surround them and box them in, but the Traitors refused to yield. They fought for every inch of ground, simultaneously pushing back the flanking force and squeezing the line of troops that bisected them, isolating it in a circle of their own men. Suddenly caught with nowhere to run, the Salamanders’ main force was slaughtered; within a matter of minutes every last Marine was blown apart, his broken body trampled underfoot.

Fenlan watched as his troops began to lose the advantage, his despair becoming stronger as each explosion smashed their ranks. His hand shaking, he picked up the commlink. ”Brother-Captain Fenlan, Treab’ s World, Northern Sulfur Desert. Request immediate reinforcements. We are engaged in combat with a large Traitor force, and are sustaining heavy losses.” Space Marine 1st edition rulebook page 39.

The increase to 100,000 was an attempt to return the Heresy to its *ahem* EPIC greatness. 'Legions' (or Chapters in then parlance) originally had 10,000s of marines, it was only later that some GW author - likely an Ultramarine player irked by the imprecision - chopped the plural off.

The modern Salamander chapter is marginally smaller than most, but the use of 7 companies is irrelevant to that - their companies are 12 squads strong instead of 10.