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I've heard the theory that after the Emperor dies, he'll become the 5th Chaos god in the Warp. I also noticed that Living Saint if classified as a daemon in DoW Soulstorm, and appears when times are desperate and lots of people are praying for deliverance. Same with Sanguinor and the Blood Angels, and it seems the same way with the LotD. Are these going to be the entities that the Emperor use when he becomes the 5th Chaos god?

I'm not sure the term Chaos God is correct, although it might be. Either way, it is a valid theory.

My personal theory about the Living Saints is that they are essentially Warp spirits conjured by the collective emotional outburst of the faithful in times of crisis (similar to how Slaanesh was "born" from the excess of the Eldar), possessing one of them at the focal point of the conflict at the time of their death.

There's not much to back this up with, of course (especially given the contradictory and "fluid" nature of the fluff in 40k), but this is how I like to explain what I've read about Celestine.
Another alternative is that everything we read about her is just myth, legend and hearsay and that the true Celestine, if she ever existed, is far more mundane than what the stories make of her.
Either way would be better than the existence of actual divine magic and angels in 40k - that'd be too much fantasy for this setting, as far as my personal preferences are concerned.

My personal theory about Living saints is that they're probably no more magical than Yarrick. It all could be just, luck, willpower and propaganda.

As for Sanguinor... I usually try to forget he exists. Maybe he is a daemon of Khorne, attracted by the bloodlust of the Blood Angels.

 Crimson wrote:
My personal theory about Living saints is that they're probably no more magical than Yarrick. It all could be just, luck, willpower and propaganda.

As for Sanguinor... I usually try to forget he exists. Maybe he is a daemon of Khorne, attracted by the bloodlust of the Blood Angels.

Yarrick is fuelled by the Orks as well though

The Living Saints essentially are conduits for the Emperor's will, which in my mind at least is when he has enough power he channels it into a willing host which becomes the saint

I'm all for the theory that Living Saints, the Sanguinor, Legion of the Damned and other such units are 'Daemons' of the Emperor, it just feels right to me.
Chaos Sorcerers draw power from the Warp and their respective god, Imperial Psykers appear to the same with the Emperor, although since his soul is not an entire Warp entity and is bound to the Golden Throne, most must go through the process of the Soul Binding to be able to achieve this.
But that's just my theory and everyone will have their own, as with everything in 40k, you'll have people on both sides of the argument who refuse to see how the opposing view could be right, I believe it, others don't, but whatever you believe is, at the end of the day, the right answer.

This topic pops up from time to time. I would go one step further with it though.

Beings like Celestine are possessed by a "daemon" of the Emperor. The Sanguinor and the Legion of the Damned probably are straight-up daemons, as they appear in time of need and disappear afterward, and never seem to truly die.

The Primarchs were the real daemon princes of the Emperor - created to be flesh but bound to the warp, making them immensely more powerful and durable than even their size and physiology suggested should be possible. When some were elevated by the Chaos gods, they were really just switching sides and becoming more powerful daemons of another god. I also believe that, thanks to this, it should be possible to somehow summon the missing Primarchs again - minus Horus, whose soul was completely destroyed by the Emperor.

This is pretty much the best theory I've seen:

 Lynata wrote:
My personal theory about the Living Saints is that they are essentially Warp spirits conjured by the collective emotional outburst of the faithful in times of crisis

That said, I really like the idea that this (and Acts of Faith) remain mysteries rather than GW or its licensees outing them as Warp manifestations.

Sanguinor is allegedly the spirit of Sanguinius reincarnated. Which isn't all that far-fetched, among the Primarchs, Sanguinius was about third in terms of psychic power, so I could sorta kinda see it from an in-universe perspective. Even if it is sorta lame from an out of universe perspective.

 Lynata wrote:
I'm not sure the term Chaos God is correct, although it might be. Either way, it is a valid theory.

My personal theory about the Living Saints is that they are essentially Warp spirits conjured by the collective emotional outburst of the faithful in times of crisis (similar to how Slaanesh was "born" from the excess of the Eldar), possessing one of them at the focal point of the conflict at the time of their death.

This is actually good...But please fill the gap for me @Lyn......

-Saints are believing in God Emperor, right ? So, their mojo comes from him ?
Lectitio Divinitatus was Lorgars.... Emp specifically told them not to buy that crap, and they still worshiped him ?

How did they managed to do miracles before his ascension to godhood ?


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 Void__Dragon wrote:
Sanguinor is allegedly the spirit of Sanguinius reincarnated. Which isn't all that far-fetched, among the Primarchs, Sanguinius was about third in terms of psychic power, so I could sorta kinda see it from an in-universe perspective. Even if it is sorta lame from an out of universe perspective.

How do you rank primarchs in everything is really not cool...

What makes you think he was more potent psyker then Curze, Khan or even maybe Russ....???
Did you measured their psychic potential or something?

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
My personal theory about Living saints is that they're probably no more magical than Yarrick. It all could be just, luck, willpower and propaganda.

As for Sanguinor... I usually try to forget he exists. Maybe he is a daemon of Khorne, attracted by the bloodlust of the Blood Angels.

Yarrick is fuelled by the Orks as well though

The Living Saints essentially are conduits for the Emperor's will, which in my mind at least is when he has enough power he channels it into a willing host which becomes the saint

The orks have this nifty ability where if enough of them believe something, it happens. Several million Orks believe that Yarrick is immortal. Therefore, Yarrick does in fact become unkillable.

DarthMarko wrote:This is actually good...But please fill the gap for me @Lyn......
Saints are believing in God Emperor, right ? So, their mojo comes from him ?

Normal Saints believe in the Emperor.
They do not have any unnatural powers themselves, unless they secretly happen to be psykers. What drives them is their willpower and possibly oratory skills evoked by their faith.
Perhaps the Emperor's psychic presence may act through them, however, explaining phenomena such as the calmness of the Warp that was said to accompany Saint Sebastian or Saint Joachim.

Following my theory, Living Saints are Warp spirits, not people. I'm not sure they would have "faith" like normal humans, although it may be possible, should they absorb memories and parts of personality of their host.

DarthMarko wrote:Lectitio Divinitatus was Lorgars.... Emp specifically told them not to buy that crap, and they still worshiped him ?

The Imperial Creed is not the "Lectitio Divinitatus" referenced in some novels.
The Emperor told the (future) Chaos Marines, not the Ecclesiarchy (as it did not exist back then).
Worship of the Emperor surged in the centuries following his "sacrifice" and his "ascension" to the Golden Throne.

DarthMarko wrote:How did they managed to do miracles before his ascension to godhood ?

Are you suggesting there were "Living Saints" (or rather, an early equivalent) before there was mass worship in the Imperium? I don't think such an idea would be compatible to my theory.
I also don't know of any other people who were said to do miracles in that era, but if there were I would ascribe them to either innate psychic powers or quite simply a mixture of coincidence, superstition and hyperbole, resulting in twisted myths and legends to be born.

First ty for the answer....

Second, what about Euphrati Keeler ?

/bow Answers are what I feel I owe people who address me.

Regarding that novel character - from what I've read on Lexicanum, that looks to be one of the potential psykers I theorised in the previous post. Hah, Black Library actually seems to agree with me for once!

That said, I'm not entirely sure on how banishing daemons actually works in detail, meaning whether you need to be a psyker or whether people with a strong enough will (but no psychic potential) could force a daemon back into the Warp - similar to how a daemon may be called out of it. Essentially making it a matter of emotions .. attraction versus repulsion.

Hmm, you may have given me some food for thought here.

I think "Galaxy in flames" and "Flight of the eisenstein" really portray her as more than just renegade psyker....

 DarthMarko wrote:
How do you rank primarchs in everything is really not cool...

What makes you think he was more potent psyker then Curze, Khan or even maybe Russ....???
Did you measured their psychic potential or something?

Because only I have the intellect necessary to accurately assess their strengths and weaknesses.

Curze? Well, because Curze's only offensive use of a psychic power I have seen is blowing up a ceiling. Compared to psychically controlling a several kilometer long starship, that just doesn't match up.

I wasn't even aware the Khan had active use of psychic powers.

Russ? Leman Russ is one of the more powerful Primarch psykers, though from what I can recall, he seems more of a blunt instrument, he can emit a psychic howl that controls the minds of wolves and can kill other psykers, but so far that seems to be it. Sanguinius can channel his power through a Force Sword, has prophetic dreams, and then there is the starship feat.

*Shrugs* It's just a simple evaluation of what they have accomplished with their powers. Magnus is first for reasons I shouldn't really have to discuss, Lorgar is second for telepathically commanding Horus and doing well against Magnus in a psychic duel (Among other things), etc.

Wasn't including Fulgrim btw

DarthMarko wrote:I think "Galaxy in flames" and "Flight of the eisenstein" really portray her as more than just renegade psyker....

Not having read the novels in question, I cannot comment on that.
My entire knowledge of that character stems from that short Lexicanum article. I know that the Lex is better suited as a list of sources than an accurate repository of information, but in this case I lack the commitment to find out more.

Feel free to expand on your assessment, however!

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
How do you rank primarchs in everything is really not cool...

What makes you think he was more potent psyker then Curze, Khan or even maybe Russ....???
Did you measured their psychic potential or something?

Because only I have the intellect necessary to accurately assess their strengths and weaknesses.

Curze? Well, because Curze's only offensive use of a psychic power I have seen is blowing up a ceiling. Compared to psychically controlling a several kilometer long starship, that just doesn't match up.

I wasn't even aware the Khan had active use of psychic powers.

Russ? Leman Russ is one of the more powerful Primarch psykers, though from what I can recall, he seems more of a blunt instrument, he can emit a psychic howl that controls the minds of wolves and can kill other psykers, but so far that seems to be it. Sanguinius can channel his power through a Force Sword, has prophetic dreams, and then there is the starship feat.

*Shrugs* It's just a simple evaluation of what they have accomplished with their powers. Magnus is first for reasons I shouldn't really have to discuss, Lorgar is second for telepathically commanding Horus and doing well against Magnus in a psychic duel (Among other things), etc.

Wasn't including Fulgrim btw

But even so, you can't rank them like that....Well, you can, and naturally I can disagree....
Fact is only Magnus fully inherited fathers gift of pp... Others-so, so....
Now we can talk which power is more cooler, but to rank them.....never.....

Can't we all just agree that Euphrati Keeler sucks?


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 DarthMarko wrote:
But even so, you can't rank them like that....Well, you can, and naturally I can disagree....
Fact is only Magnus fully inherited fathers gift of pp... Others-so, so....
Now we can talk which power is more cooler, but to rank them.....never.....

I dunno, I feel like Lorgar is also versatile enough with his psychic abilities to see he is indeed a full-fledged psyker second only to Magnus among the Primarchs. At least, after his battle with Corax.

Now, there is admittedly some difficulty in comparing powers from different disciplines. Comparing Divination to Pyromancy for example. But see, Curze has Divination, but it is unreliable, unable to be controlled by him. His offensive uses have been impressive by the standards of a Sanctioned Psyker, but not by the standards of Magnus, Lorgar, and Sanguinius, all of whom also possess, to some extent, the gift of divination. Leman Russ is trickier to place compared to Curze, lacking the gift of divination as far as we know, but having one very impressive offensive use of his power.

Also, out of curiosity, what psychic potential has the Khan shown?

If you haven't noticed, I am kind of a fangirl over psychic power in general, within the setting (Yet my favorite Spehss Mehreen chapter is the Black Templars, CONTRADICTION).

 Lynata wrote:

DarthMarko wrote:I think "Galaxy in flames" and "Flight of the eisenstein" really portray her as more than just renegade psyker....

Not having read the novels in question, I cannot comment on that.
My entire knowledge of that character stems from that short Lexicanum article. I know that the Lex is better suited as a list of sources than an accurate repository of information, but in this case I lack the commitment to find out more.

Feel free to expand on your assessment, however!

Actually I will bow out of this one... Open the book and read it Lyn ( * you can do it * ).....and write me your opinion later.....

I'd have to spend money on it first, the Horus Heresy does not synch with my personal preferences, and I still have a Battletech novel (Daughter of the Dragon) to finish. Too much of a sacrifice to ask, I'm afraid. :(

Let's just postpone this aspect of the debate indefinitely, then?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Can't we all just agree that Euphrati Keeler sucks?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarthMarko wrote:
But even so, you can't rank them like that....Well, you can, and naturally I can disagree....
Fact is only Magnus fully inherited fathers gift of pp... Others-so, so....
Now we can talk which power is more cooler, but to rank them.....never.....

I dunno, I feel like Lorgar is also versatile enough with his psychic abilities to see he is indeed a full-fledged psyker second only to Magnus among the Primarchs. At least, after his battle with Corax.

Now, there is admittedly some difficulty in comparing powers from different disciplines. Comparing Divination to Pyromancy for example. But see, Curze has Divination, but it is unreliable, unable to be controlled by him. His offensive uses have been impressive by the standards of a Sanctioned Psyker, but not by the standards of Magnus, Lorgar, and Sanguinius, all of whom also possess, to some extent, the gift of divination. Leman Russ is trickier to place compared to Curze, lacking the gift of divination as far as we know, but having one very impressive offensive use of his power.

Also, out of curiosity, what psychic potential has the Khan shown?

If you haven't noticed, I am kind of a fangirl over psychic power in general, within the setting (Yet my favorite Spehss Mehreen chapter is the Black Templars, CONTRADICTION).

Some kind of storm power IIRC.....


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 Lynata wrote:
I'd have to spend money on it first, the Horus Heresy does not synch with my personal preferences, and I still have a Battletech novel (Daughter of the Dragon) to finish. Too much of a sacrifice to ask, I'm afraid. :(

Let's just postpone this aspect of the debate indefinitely, then?

Interesting, know the book?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Interesting, know the book?

Nope, but I'm pretty sure I've read it somewhere..maybe even here
Also he was the co-founder of librarius and the stormseers inherited his powers.....So I woudn say he was like Robby

Living Saints are Demon Princes(s)

Sanguinor is a Greater Demon

 Bobthehero wrote:
Living Saints are Demon Princes(s)

Sanguinor is a Greater Demon

Bob, you are my hero !!!

These things are not classed as daemons in the game, and I really do not like the warp spirit theory, especially when it comes to the Living Saints. Celestine hung around with her fellow sisters after her 'death' and 'resurrection'. Daemons don't do that, they live in the warp. Living saints are normal, physical human beings, who may or may not have superpowers. It is possible, but not necessary, that Emperor (or Tzeentch!) somehow empowers them.

There are these things called Daemonhosts.

Also, may or may not, lol. Sure. Whatever you say man.

Something like this could be covered in the 3.5 Chaos 'dex, it mentions new powers being formed in the warp when certain emotions run high, perhaps living saints are what happens when the Emperors forces believe in something so much.

Perhaps they manifest in this way due to the Emperor being tied to the physical plain still, if the Emperor was to actually ascend maybe he would be able to create full aspects of himself like the Lesser and Greater Daemons of the Chaos Gods.

Maybe it is also something to do with the way in that mortal souls, not dedicated to a chaos God, fade over time. Perhaps there is some level of sentience still and that when there is an opportunity for good deeds to be done, they posses the body and become a saint, much like the way of a Daemonhost, like what V__D says.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Interesting, know the book?

Brotherhood of the Storm, was the last limited edition Heresy book released.

It's mentioned in passing I think, that the Khan can form storms, but there is no actual use of this if I recall.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
There are these things called Daemonhosts.

That might work for Living Saints (although I'd expect Imperial authorities being pretty good at recognising daemonic possession and not too happy about letting possessed people running around leading their armies); however, Sanguinor seems to hang around in warp, and I don't think daemonhosts can do that. Of course it is perfectly possible that Living Saints and Sanguinor are two completely different and unrelated phenomena.

Also, may or may not, lol. Sure. Whatever you say man.

A lot of 40k fluff works like that. And it is intended to. Maybe it was a miracle, or maybe it was just amazing luck. I like the ambiguity. Living Saints displaying blatantly magical powers would ruin that.

Saint Celestine is explicitly "imbued with Divine power".

Magic is a very real force in 40k, and many characters very much use it.

There is no guessing what the hell Sanguinor is. Sanguinius's reincarnation is not more far-fetched than other wacky things he might be.