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 Void__Dragon wrote:
Saint Celestine is explicitly "imbued with Divine power".

Sisters believe she is, yes. Does not mean it is necessarily true. Might be though.

Magic is a very real force in 40k, and many characters very much use it.

You mean psychic powers? Celestine is not a psyker.

Being born a psyker is not the only path to the arcane.

To me, the "arcane" is either superstition and myth or just a fancy word for psychic phenomena. I can do without elements of unscientific high fantasy in my 40k. Obviously a matter of taste, though.

Crimson wrote:Celestine hung around with her fellow sisters after her 'death' and 'resurrection'. Daemons don't do that, they live in the warp.

Well, not the current version of Celestine. She pops up at places and then disappears again.
Originally I got that idea from the description about how Living Saints are said to be short-lived, however. "Burning bright but fast", which I then theorised to refer to a connection between the Living Saint's presence and the emotions of those around her. The more presence she shows, the more emotions from the masses of the faithful (not the Sisters but the millions of ordinary people in a warzone) are turned from despair and devotion into awe and horror, and then "redirected" to a different recipient, in turn robbing the Living Saint of a steady source of its power ... until it disappears for good.

I wasn't aware anyone could consider them not to be "daemons/possessed" of the "Emperor".

 Lynata wrote:
Well, not the current version of Celestine. She pops up at places and then disappears again.

People keep saying that, but where is it from? She can 'appear' without popping in and out from warp (at least without a space ship.) She seemed to lead crusades in perfectly normal manner being physically present, even after being declared Living Saint.

Crimson wrote:People keep saying that, but where is it from? She can 'appear' without popping in and out from warp (at least without a space ship.) She seemed to lead crusades in perfectly normal manner being physically present, even after being declared Living Saint.

The 5E White Dwarf Minidex.
It has (unnecessarily) retconned several minor yet cool details of Sororitas fluff, usually for the worse.

"Saint Celestine appears, falling upon the Chaos horde like an avenging angel. The Living Saint carves a path through the horde towards Lord Gralastyx, before plunging her blade through his heart. With the death of Gralastyx, the Chaos horde is destroyed, but of Celestine there is no sign, for the vanished as mysteriously as she appeared."
"Following her apotheosis during the Palatine Crusade she became a warrior imbued with divine power who appears in times of great need."

Mind you, this hinges upon how much trust you place in those descriptions (which I have no illusions about containing the usual amount of stylistic embellishment that regularly seems to accompany event descriptions), but it would fit to the theory.

 Lynata wrote:
To me, the "arcane" is either superstition and myth or just a fancy word for psychic phenomena. I can do without elements of unscientific high fantasy in my 40k. Obviously a matter of taste, though.

So I guess in your 40k, Eldar, Orks, Space Marines, and basically every faction except the Imperial Guard, the Tau, and the Tyranids do not have a place?

40k isn't science fiction. It's space fantasy.

 Manchu wrote:
This is pretty much the best theory I've seen:

 Lynata wrote:
My personal theory about the Living Saints is that they are essentially Warp spirits conjured by the collective emotional outburst of the faithful in times of crisis

That said, I really like the idea that this (and Acts of Faith) remain mysteries rather than GW or its licensees outing them as Warp manifestations.

Agreed. Some things should; stay mysterious.


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 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
To me, the "arcane" is either superstition and myth or just a fancy word for psychic phenomena. I can do without elements of unscientific high fantasy in my 40k. Obviously a matter of taste, though.

So I guess in your 40k, Eldar, Orks, Space Marines, and basically every faction except the Imperial Guard, the Tau, and the Tyranids do not have a place?

40k isn't science fiction. It's space fantasy.

You'd have to get rid of the Tyranids, too. They're intrinsically tied to the warp just like Orks are.

True, but you could easily handwave them off as generic space locusts.

You oculd probably do the same with Orks as generic space technobarbarians. Hell, GW has even already done the favor of making them less silly and more serious over the years.

"It's not psychic, it works! It's just that the Mechanicus doesn't want to admit that it works."

Void__Dragon wrote:So I guess in your 40k, Eldar, Orks, Space Marines, and basically every faction except the Imperial Guard, the Tau, and the Tyranids do not have a place?

How exactly did you get that idea? Eldar and Marine Librarians are psykers, the Ork Waaagh-field has been described as a psychic phenomena as well, and the Tyranid hivemind is telepathy. This is still scientific, not fantasy, and a huge step away from actual divine magic.

I don't quite understand why you listed the Tau, though, as they don't appear to have any special powers like the other groups you mentioned.

Void__Dragon wrote:40k isn't science fiction. It's space fantasy.

Only insofar in that it has fantasy elements such as elves and orcs. "How stuff works" is sci-fi, as far as I can see.
That which is "magic" in the setting has always been exposed as coming from the Warp, not from some sort of actual divine being. Why should the Emperor be any different than the Chaos Gods?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

So I guess in your 40k, Eldar, Orks, Space Marines, and basically every faction except the Imperial Guard, the Tau, and the Tyranids do not have a place?

40k isn't science fiction. It's space fantasy.

It is not that psychic powers do not exist. Merely that there is no 'magic' as a separate thing from psychic phenomena.

 Lynata wrote:
Why should the Emperor be any different than the Chaos Gods?

Why should he be the same?

He was not created in the same way as the Chaos Gods. Therefor, it is not necessarily true that he would end up the same.

 Melissia wrote:
You oculd probably do the same with Orks as generic space technobarbarians. Hell, GW has even already done the favor of making them less silly and more serious over the years.

"It's not psychic, it works! It's just that the Mechanicus doesn't want to admit that it works."

As I recall Tolkien's Orks were not particularly "silly".

The Orks fulfill much the same role. Brutish, violent mobs of monsters with a surprising amount of cunning and technological innovation.

Tolkien's Orks are also remarkably different from 40k's Orks (or more accurately, the other way around), so I do not like to see people use those comparisons.

 Lynata wrote:
How exactly did you get that idea? Eldar and Marine Librarians are psykers,

Magicians.

the Ork Waaagh-field has been described as a psychic phenomena as well,

Magic.

and the Tyranid hivemind is telepathy.

Reread the context I stated the Tyranids in.

This is still scientific, not fantasy, and a huge step away from actual divine magic.

Divine magic?

Well, let's use DnD's definition of divine magic, which basically codified the term.

Magic using the power of a higher source.

Every single psyker borrows their power from the Warp, often from one of the Chaos Gods, or in the Ork case, Ork gods.

I don't quite understand why you listed the Tau, though, as they don't appear to have any special powers like the other groups you mentioned.

Reread that post very carefully, and you'll see why I listed the Tau.

Only insofar in that it has fantasy elements such as elves and orcs. "How stuff works" is sci-fi, as far as I can see.
That which is "magic" in the setting has always been exposed as coming from the Warp, not from some sort of actual divine being. Why should the Emperor be any different than the Chaos Gods?

There doesn't exist science fiction that gets much softer than Warhammer 40,000. Warhammer 40,000 is science fiction in terms of the terminology used and occasional technobabble, and rarely you'll get a writer who actually has some semblance of what they are talking about.

The Chaos Gods are gods. They operate as gods, they have power that makes most mythological gods green with envy, and they are presented as gods. They are divine.

You're so hung up on terms like "psychic" that you ignore that the "psychic" powers are just a blatant science fiction themed renaming of magic.


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 Melissia wrote:
Tolkien's Orks are also remarkably different from 40k's Orks (or more accurately, the other way around), so I do not like to see people use those comparisons.

Indeed?

They are different in that, amongst themselves, the Orks are shown as a rather comedic lot, which makes a nice contrast for how terrifying and savage they appear to others, but from an Imperial point of view, how different are they?


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 Crimson wrote:
It is not that psychic powers do not exist. Merely that there is no 'magic' as a separate thing from psychic phenomena.

There is a clear distinction between sorcery and natural psychic power. They both originate from the same source, but there is a difference, even in the studio fluff. See the fluff behind the Thousand Sons.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

There is a clear distinction between sorcery and natural psychic power. They both originate from the same source, but there is a difference, even in the studio fluff. See the fluff behind the Thousand Sons.

Please, elaborate.

Sorcery is associated with daemons. Whether they taught the practitioner something, are directly empowering the effect, etc. If daemons are involved, it's Sorcery.

That's the line in the sand between psychic ability and Sorcery as the in-universe experts have declared.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
They are different in that, amongst themselves, the Orks are shown as a rather comedic lot, which makes a nice contrast for how terrifying and savage they appear to others, but from an Imperial point of view, how different are they?

The most important difference?

40k Orks fearless beasts, driven by a desire for war, above all else. An ultimate victory that brought an end to war is, to an Ork, the ultimate defeat. Everything they are, all of their culture, everything that they ever will be, is based entirely around this concept-- war. They are bigger, tougher, and stronger than humans, thriving in any environment. In their mind, they can never lose, because there's always more war to be had.

Tolkien Orks are the descendents of tortured elves, serving their dark lord out of fear and ignorance, ultimately nothing more than weak and sniveling slaves. They are weaker than humans or elves, smaller and more pathetic-- unable to withstand the warmth of the sun, they scurry around at night in fear. Ultimately, they likely realize that they will eventually lose, and that even in victory they cannot celebrate-- and so they know fear, and very little else.

There's a pretty big difference.

Then there's the Uruk-Hai, where "uruk" is basically Black Speech for "orc" -- just as 40k's greenskins seem to identify themselves as "orks." The Uruk-Hai meanwhile call the smaller orcs "snagga" -- kind of like snotlings and gretchin.

Melissia wrote:Why should he be the same? He was not created in the same way as the Chaos Gods. Therefor, it is not necessarily true that he would end up the same.

What I'm trying to say is that the Emperor, Ecclesiarchal propaganda aside, was never described as having "divine powers". He's a psyker. The Astronomican is a psychic beacon, not a divine construct. That it is treated as divine by the indoctrinated masses does not change this, just like the Chaos Gods are not actual gods but, scientifically speaking, ideas given form within the Warp and drawing their power from the Immaterium.

Void__Dragon wrote:Reread that post very carefully, and you'll see why I listed the Tau.

Quite - my mistake.

Void__Dragon wrote:You're so hung up on terms like "psychic" that you ignore that the "psychic" powers are just a blatant science fiction themed renaming of magic.

In a way, you are both correct and incorrect, as far as my current interpretation of the 'verse goes. Stylistically, regarding the representation of the setting, psychic powers are 40k's version of magic. Yet there's an important difference: there is nothing "magical" about the Warp when we study its descriptions. It all has a scientific reasoning (as much reasoning as could be expected from sci-fi) behind it by not simply declaring this magic to exist (like D&D does) but by clearly explaining where it originates from, how it works, and how it can be influenced - even with technology! It can be quantified and measured, and what you say are "magicians" is a genetic mutation the Imperium is able to detect by medical scans of its citizenry.

A few hundred years ago, quite a lot of the things we understand today would have been declared magic, yet that does not change anything about their true status. Perspective may change perception, but it does not alter the reality. Similarly, the Chaos Gods are not true gods, regardless of how much their cultists may believe this. They are ideas given shape within the Immaterium, depending on the Warp as their source of power and continued existence. In a way, they are not actual independent powers but merely facets of the Warp itself. Indeed, the Daemons Codex notes that the realms within the Warp associated with the various Chaos Gods ARE the Chaos Gods. They are not people like the "true gods" in D&D that can move around freely, explaining why a Chaos God would never be seen outside the Warp, and why they need to give up portions of their own power to create daemons to act as their proxies in the mortal realm.

You can be a Sorcerer and not be a Psyker. Though both manipulate Warp-energies, the means by which they go about doing so is entirely different. "Magic", defined as somatic gestures and spoken incantations, possibly accompanied by certain material components required for channeling the appropriate Warp energies, exists as a very real manifestation of Chaos in the 40K setting.

Magic that exists in fantasy settings can sometimes be explained by the science of said settings. But it's still magic vis-a-vis reality, especially when no attempt is made in the setting to square it with real life science.

 Lynata wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:So I guess in your 40k, Eldar, Orks, Space Marines, and basically every faction except the Imperial Guard, the Tau, and the Tyranids do not have a place?

How exactly did you get that idea? Eldar and Marine Librarians are psykers, the Ork Waaagh-field has been described as a psychic phenomena as well, and the Tyranid hivemind is telepathy. This is still scientific, not fantasy, and a huge step away from actual divine magic.

This statement sums up for me the failing of recent generations.

It is truly depressing that small minds can be so accepting of one type of fiction (fiction super soldiers, psychic powers, alien hordes, etc) and yet be so dismissive of others. The moment Divinity is mentioned people start drawing a line. "Oh undead alien space robots could totally happen one day but... Divine magic, that's stuff's for kids!".

just .... wow.

It is the beginning of wisdom to admit that you know nothing. From there you can actually learn. And you learn not by ever saying that one thing (be it necrons or Jesus Christ) can never be.

It is my opinion, that GW has done a marvelous job creating a universe that combines elements from so many types of fantasy and fiction. It's not strictly science-fiction, and it's not strictly Fantasy. It's relatively unique. Part of that stems from it involving that element of the divine. It doesn't have to appeal to everyone, but everyone playing the game should be aware that this game simply DOES involve it.

The gradual stripping away of that element has ruined the game. It allows us to leave some things untouched. Just as in real life, Faith is unproven. It's mysterious. If it were measurable or quantifiable, it would cease to be faith. So it is in the game. I don't think I am the only one who has respect for the concept of "leaving it to your imagination". The more you explain, the more you take away from the power of my imagination to fill in the gaps.

The Emperor is sort of analogous for God IRL... but only sorta-kinda-ish. Calling the Sanguinor or Living Saints Angels is hard to argue since you'd have to possess an understand of Angels (which we do not). The same goes for Daemons. I'd have a hard time drawing the line since they are kind of like two different sides of the same coin. If daemons are daemons, than angels are angels... why confuse yourselves by trying to add more ways to distinguish them?

 Psienesis wrote:
You can be a Sorcerer and not be a Psyker..

Are you sure about that?

 Lynata wrote:

Melissia wrote:Why should he be the same? He was not created in the same way as the Chaos Gods. Therefor, it is not necessarily true that he would end up the same.

What I'm trying to say is that the Emperor, Ecclesiarchal propaganda aside, was never described as having "divine powers". He's a psyker. The Astronomican is a psychic beacon, not a divine construct. That it is treated as divine by the indoctrinated masses does not change this, just like the Chaos Gods are not actual gods but, scientifically speaking, ideas given form within the Warp and drawing their power from the Immaterium.

I'll further muddy this debate by injecting that the warp entity known as the Emperor is not necessarily the same being that created Space Marines.

If you put any stock in the HH series, the God-Emperor's displays of power were already manifesting whilst the regular Emperor was unaware of such things.

 Manchu wrote:
Then there's the Uruk-Hai, where "uruk" is basically Black Speech for "orc" -- just as 40k's greenskins seem to identify themselves as "orks." The Uruk-Hai meanwhile call the smaller orcs "snagga" -- kind of like snotlings and gretchin.

Uruk-Hai are Orks bread with humans. Which separates the two kinds of Orks even MORE, really.

 Crimson wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
You can be a Sorcerer and not be a Psyker..

Are you sure about that?

I'am (I think so) - there is merchant in ..who uses maleficarum without being a psyker....

I think Hawser mentions something simillar....I'don't remeber well PB...

 Manchu wrote:
Magic that exists in fantasy settings can sometimes be explained by the science of said settings. But it's still magic vis-a-vis reality, especially when no attempt is made in the setting to square it with real life science.

Which is, categorically, not done in 40K. The Chaos Sorcerers have pretty much always been robe-wearing, staff-bearing Wizards, possibly with optional tentacles and such involved. There's no "science" behind the fact that they wave their hands, chant funny words,and daemons explode out of people's heads, fire rains out of the sky, lighting bolts leap from their hands, or all sorts of other arcane mother-fethery.

 Crimson wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
You can be a Sorcerer and not be a Psyker..

Are you sure about that?

Absolutely 100% sure of it.

This is even highlighted in the FFG game series, where one can be a Sorcerer without being a Psyker, but if one is a Psyker who then learns the Sorcerous arts, it makes you a more-effective Psyker. Of course, in either case, this is a fast road to ruin and damnation, but, hey, at what price power?

Anyone can be a Sorcerer, that's the lure.