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Right there with ya, Az .

The box I'm going to throw away is totally worth it.

Hey guys,

Justin is a friend of mine... trust me, he is just as frustrated that the stuff is being delayed for the boxes... unfortunately, there was a lot of hassle getting the specs, a lot, and of course they can't ship without packaging.

Annoying I know but they are in the home stretch now, you WILL get your stuff, and after having seen them in person, trust me, these are really, really high end boards, you will not be sorry!

 MajorTom11 wrote:
Hey guys,

Justin is a friend of mine... trust me, he is just as frustrated that the stuff is being delayed for the boxes... unfortunately, there was a lot of hassle getting the specs, a lot, and of course they can't ship without packaging.

Annoying I know but they are in the home stretch now, you WILL get your stuff, and after having seen them in person, trust me, these are really, really high end boards, you will not be sorry!

Given the initial print, with the wood grain texture... I'm glad he took the time to get it right. I saw the new tiles at Adepticon, and I'm glad he insisted on having a high quality product.

I still just want them now.

I'm not going to lie...I was half expecting the sunk my battle ship update

We're mostly just joking, not being mean about it (at least I don't think we are). As with most kickstarters, the delay between expected delivery and actual delivery causes frustrations for all parties.

 MajorTom11 wrote:
Hey guys,

Justin is a friend of mine... trust me, he is just as frustrated that the stuff is being delayed for the boxes... unfortunately, there was a lot of hassle getting the specs, a lot, and of course they can't ship without packaging.

So what? Is friendship with a Moderator a pass against criticism? Why bring it up? So we believe how frustrated he is? We know. He has publicly stated his frustration with the months long delays that have plagued this campaign.

 MajorTom11 wrote:
Annoying I know but they are in the home stretch now, you WILL get your stuff, and after having seen them in person, trust me, these are really, really high end boards, you will not be sorry!

Are we not allowed to gripe because something that most people wouldn't give two gaks about is holding up an already delayed product? We know the boards are cool, that is why we kicked in money to get them made. But, that doesn't change the fact that the boxes are the latest delay in a series of delays and, frankly, box art is not something most people are concerned with. People want to use the boards they paid for almost a year ago.

Honestly, let people crack wise at this box issue. It helps bleed off the aggravation that has built up for some of us over the course of this campaign. The rabid defense of Mr. Justin is annoying, as is the repeated chorus to "be patient" that streams out of Mr. Justin's defenders. For some the patience is running out and until we get some pictures of boxes being unloaded from the shipping container that patience will remain low.




*edited a typo

DarkTraveller777, your cork is in a little tight bud. Tone it down.

I am not saying you have to feel or say anything. I am not saying you are not allowed to feel or say anything. I am merely giving my point of view as someone who has seen the product and is familiar with the logistical difficulties in this case. That's it. Maybe that info would help ease the pain of the wait, maybe it doesn't, nothing more was in that message and you should re-read it again if you think there was anything saying 'shut up and wait it's not a problem'.

So no, just because I am a Moderator does not mean my 'friends' get privileges. Nor does it mean you can speak to me in a worse fashion than you would a regular member of this site. I hope both are clearly understood, as well as the original message, none of which should be considered offensive.

I believe Tom was speaking in regular people voice, and not in mod voice, from the lack of Red Text in his post.

The constant echoing of griping is also what ends up giving Dakka a bad rep in the industry, and can be harmful to the site in general. Its one of the reasons why you don't seem many (hardly any) Industry Reps here anymore.


Its fine that you don't care about the boxes, but they weren't going to ship without the damn things as there is only going to be one shipment for the boards and that is both KS supporters, and the initial stock to sell to customers/stores. Its better that they are shipping in boxes anyway: less likely that orders will get fethed up and your boards won't just be tossed in a shipping box haphazardly.

Tom, you repeated information that has been posted throughout this thread and on Kickstarter and Facebook. We have seen the photos, we know the reasons for the update, we know Mr. Justin is frustrated. You coming in and repeating all of that is rather pointless. It makes me wonder why you bothered except to defend your friend.

What needs to be toned down? I didn't insult you, I questioned your motivation for posting what you posted. That is done all day every day on Dakka. I also requested that you and others stop telling frustrated backers to be patient because it is getting old.

MajorTom11 and Cyporiean, you are missing the point. The people griping on here and making jokes about the box delay don't really care about the boxes. This box delay is ridiculously frustrating and while I am sure we all understand the need for the boxes, it doesn't change the fact that the packaging material that most people throw away is the latest thing to to snag up the fulfillment of this campaign. I think you two are too close to the situation, as this is a friend of yours and a business partner (right, Cyporiean?) so you are perhaps a little more defensive about criticisms leveled at Mr. Justin/SWM, no?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And as a follow up, Dakka is popular because it isn't an echo chamber. People can voice their opinions (within reason) about subjects, including "Industry Reps" and their companies' activities. If those reps cannot handle such criticism perhaps they also can't handle Dakka's members' money?

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
I think you two are too close to the situation, as this is a friend of yours and a business partner (right, Cyporiean?) so you are perhaps a little more defensive about criticisms leveled at Mr. Justin/SWM, no?

Not currently a business partner, just a fan.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

And as a follow up, Dakka is popular because it isn't an echo chamber. People can voice their opinions (within reason) about subjects, including "Industry Reps" and their companies' activities. If those reps cannot handle such criticism perhaps they also can't handle Dakka's members' money?

Dakka can be very Echo Chambery at times, specifically in Kickstarter threads. There is criticism, which can and should be constructive.. and then there is just bitching about things that cannot be changed. This thread has had a lot of both.

Well ok, since you ask, it needs to be spelled out for you, ok then.

You need to tone yourself down because you seem to be under the impression that no one can speak unless you approve or have not heard the message before. The box art was released yesterday, so I don't think me opening my mouth about boxes is an issue. I don't care if someone else said it before me. It's a forum, not your blog.

So, you intimating I only came in to help my friend is either an abuse of some kind or inherently wrong in and of itself is also rude and more than a little insulting. I can't make a comment that is expressing sympathy for both sides here? I can't try to be positive about it? If I am I am doing something untowards? Trying to say something to make everyone involved suffer a little less is questionable ethically to you somehow? Don't think just because I am a Mod that gives you carte blanche to go full conspiracy theory based on my one post that in fact said nothing but 'sucks for everyone, but at least when it does get there the product will be awesome'.

Give me a break. You are out of line on this one, and if you will not be satisfied unless every single person here is posting nothing but demands for blood and condemnation then I suggest you take a break from the thread. You can say what you like for yourself, but you can't harrass other users because they don't feel exactly the same.

If you have anything further to say on the matter I highly suggest you take it up with me via PM with me and let the topic get on with it.

PM inbound!

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And as a follow up, Dakka is popular because it isn't an echo chamber. People can voice their opinions (within reason) about subjects, including "Industry Reps" and their companies' activities. If those reps cannot handle such criticism perhaps they also can't handle Dakka's members' money?

Jesus Christ, dude.

Take a chill pill. You'll live longer.

 Cyporiean wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

And as a follow up, Dakka is popular because it isn't an echo chamber. People can voice their opinions (within reason) about subjects, including "Industry Reps" and their companies' activities. If those reps cannot handle such criticism perhaps they also can't handle Dakka's members' money?

Dakka can be very Echo Chambery at times, specifically in Kickstarter threads. There is criticism, which can and should be constructive.. and then there is just bitching about things that cannot be changed. This thread has had a lot of both.

Criticism and bitching are really in the eyes of the beholder, no? This thread and others like it also have a fair number of apologists who will try to talk down anyone who has anything negative to say. Or they will just add to the patronizing chorus of "just be patient."

These things did need actual boxes to ship out in though, didn't they?

Not to mention to be able to ship to and be sold by retailers as well, right?

DarkTraveler, obviously we're all waiting and the boxes are frustrating, but your comments are becoming a parody of themselves... I have to admit, I was personally very glad when you dropped your Mecha Front pledge so we didn't have to endure this over there.

Basically, we're all tired of waiting, the box delay is frustrating, but you go ballistic on anyone who says anything positive about the campaign, and that's just as bad as someone who does the reverse (getting upset at any criticism).

You are free to criticize here, that is not the issue... the issue is, you're jumping at shadows and freaking out whenever someone says something other than what you believe to be the case here. Discussion involves give and take... take a little, there have been probably a dozen people who have asked you to tone down your rhetoric in this thread alone. You're really not helping your cause, and I would be complaining MORE if not for not wanting to be associated with the tone you are using! So you are silencing most of us who are upset about the delay by being so boisterous about it.

I don't mean this disrespectfully but hopefully this demonstrates what I am trying to say- there is nothing wrong with your view, but you are not expressing it in the most effective way (and almost becoming a parody at this point, keeping others who are also upset from saying so due to not wanting to be associated with that).

 Alpharius wrote:
These things did need actual boxes to ship out in though, didn't they?

Not to mention to be able to ship to and be sold by retailers as well, right?

They do, on both counts.

Ultimately guys, it's gonna take how long it's going to take. So being patient really, to me, isn't patronizing so much as it is simply solid advice at this point. The fact I know Justin is already going as fast as he possibly can probably taints how I interpret 'be patient', because I know being really angry won't make it go faster. If it would, if he was just being lazy or something, I would say get riled up and keep complaining believe it or not. It's just that in this case I know the only thing being upset will accomplish is upsetting yourself.

HOWEVER - What I am absolutely not saying is that anyone should be happy at this long delay. I am not saying 'it's a good thing!' by any stretch. It sucks. Especially when excitement turns to anger. No one should be telling you not to be annoyed, but to me, be patient doesn't mean don't be annoyed or minimize anyone's right to not be happy you know? It just means take a break from dwelling on it because it won't speed anything up.

All I can say, as previously mentioned, is that once the stuff is in your hands and the aggravation of waiting is past, at least it will be something you will be happy with and admire the quality of. It won't make waiting easier, but it may make it easier to forget after it's over at least. This is based on seeing all 4 themes in person 3 weeks ago, handing them, seeing the print and build quality, and handling the joins and frames and being very impressed with how easily they assemble and stay put. I have a ROB board, the little brackets that hold it together area nightmare. The x joins tablescapes have are night and day... it's cool. It is not cool to be waiting on them though and I totally get that and don't dispute it one iota and I don't think Justin or any other 'apologists' would either.

In the meantime, I just feel bad for everyone, one side was excited to get these into your hands and is now very frustrated you have to wait, and the other side was very excited to buy and is frustrated they have to wait. No one is winning here lol...

 RiTides wrote:
DarkTraveler, obviously we're all waiting and the boxes are frustrating, but your comments are becoming a parody of themselves... I have to admit, I was personally very glad when you dropped your Mecha Front pledge so we didn't have to endure this over there.

I know, which is why I am going to take my leave of this thread after this post (though I reserve the right to come back if something ridiculously comical happens to the cargo container in route! ).

MT11 is correct, there are no winners here so I will end with: Yay for the boxes now hurry up and get here already!

Hey, well that is a classy reply (I mean that!). Cheers

And yes, I am soooooo ready to hear that they're on the boat lol. So, so ready.

i'm just as bothered as the next person with this KS and the delays, granted those delays pretty much come with every kickstarter, but i've gotten to the point now where I'm expecting a delay with each update, i think this KS is dangerously close to the anything that could cause a delay did cause a delay territory, however being critical of it is largely a dead horse at this point. For me its well past the point that voicing frustration makes me feel any better. The truly unfortunate part for me with this KS and several others is that I'm so burnt out on the delays and such that im largely no longer excited about the product, this product is largely going to have to be the single most amazing thing ever produced in the history of mankind for it to really respark my original level of excitement. And thats a comment based on the handful of KS that i'm waiting to ship, not just related to this one.

At least we're being updated in this KS. Wyrd isn't even doing that much in their long overdue KS.

 Cyporiean wrote:

The constant echoing of griping is also what ends up giving Dakka a bad rep in the industry, and can be harmful to the site in general. Its one of the reasons why you don't seem many (hardly any) Industry Reps here anymore.

Its fine that you don't care about the boxes, but they weren't going to ship without the damn things as there is only going to be one shipment for the boards and that is both KS supporters, and the initial stock to sell to customers/stores. Its better that they are shipping in boxes anyway: less likely that orders will get fethed up and your boards won't just be tossed in a shipping box haphazardly.

Oh, we see plenty of reps. We see them while their Kickstarter is about to launch or while it's active, and then they disappear (until the next one!) You'll note that the ones who treat the Dakka community as more than walking wallets and can handle participating in theads where there's more than just sycophancy happening (Vic, Anvil, Mad Robot, DFG, Maxmini, Red Box, Kromlech, etc) have a whole lot more goodwill towards them. Aside from the tiresome GW-bitching, which is endemic to a much wider element of the community than just Dakka, where's the majority of the "griping" happening? Kickstarter threads where there's an endless supply of 6-12-18-month delays and an endless stream of new projects with creators deciding to post unrealistic, bs fulfilment dates in order to pad their campaigns as hard as possible. Not SWM in this instance, but perfectly personified by that Weird WW2 campaign where the figures are being produced by Panda and the creator all but admitted that his fulfilment date was a hopeful guess at best. Incursion backers got told feth all about their delays "more than a couple of weeks" until the most recent update - on the original fulfilment date - which pretty much said "uh, another 8 months or so, guys" to those of us who can do maths. Along with the usual bs "we're super busy, and we won't update more than once a month". There's also lots of griping in threads like Raging Heroes and Palladium (RRT) where we have companies treating us like mushrooms (keep em in the dark and feed them gak), or in threads where companies seem to think that quality control is for other people (Puppetswar). Or when CMON sends their stuff out and forgets more than half of it, then takes 2-3 weeks to reply to an email to get it sorted out.

What happens in this thread and something like the DFG or the Trollforged thread by comparison is incredibly mild. But yeah, take a shot at those fething entitled consumers daring to be frustrated and bitch about being 6+ month delays or being pretty much screwed over in KS campaigns. How dare they? They should just suck it up and ask for more. Oh wait, asking for more is the job of the KS creators, right? The fact that you dare to call Dakka threads like the ones listed above an "echo chamber" and talk that kind of gak about the place just destroys any credibility you might have had with me. How's BGG's rep, by the way? They've certainly got a rep that's not entirely about being sweetness and light, and they still have a lot of creators active there. I guess it's because where the Boardgame money lives, and so they get the same thing we have here - creators who expect more than sycophancy, and people pimping their next Kickstarter project.

I'm also not sure how you seem to think that you know any more than many specific others here about what Dakka's "rep in the industry" is like. We've got a lot of well-informed people here, after all.

Maybe Dakka needs to ban all of the nasty malcontents so it can have a nice rep in the industry and enforce super-strict moderation? Isn't warseer like that? What are their user numbers like? Make sure you ban all the mods who "gripe" a lot in KS threads as well while you're at it. (that would be you at a minimum, Alph and RT)


On the SWM KS, the fact that it's slowly become apparent that the KS fulfilment is the same as retail fulfilment is a bit of an annoyance as well. So we all now know that retailers and retail customers will in many cases receive the Kickstarted product stuff before backers, and Justin has also said that he won't be re-opening a PM for us backers to add more - which would be a nice Mea Culpa. No, instead, we can buy any extras for full price at retail, and a sincere "sorry guys" is our only recompense for the 6-month delay and payment way upfront. This wouldn't have been an issue last ...November? December? But now it's April, and Justin hopes that it will ship from China at the end of May. So we'll see the product in June. Or July. Or...? (just checked the KS page. October? gak, this is a couple of months later than I thought.) So it would be a nice gesture from Justin on an 8-9 month late project, but one which he is apparently unwilling to do.

ironicsilence - I see you there, and feel much the same way about it now. I think a bit of low-level snark and humour is much better than getting angry and upset, though. When you have a full-of-itself post like Cyp here's though, it deserves everything that it gets.

Tom - "be patient" is fine as a personal mantra, but it's not a good thing to tell people. It's talking down to people and has a presumption of authority to it as well and It's often taken as a condescending comment. Just as "calm down" is one of the worst things to say to someone who you want to calm down. (Seriously on all this - look it up if you must. I've been trained in all of this stuff as part of my profession.) So unless you're saying it as a directive with your mod hat on, you're better off with just the emphatic comment without advising people to be patient. It tends to aggravate the situation otherwise.

There's a real kind of dissonance in Kickstarter threads and campaigns these days. There's something seriously wrong when people get chided for being unhappy when campaigns get delayed by 6 to 12 months, and "you should have expected it". Not so much in this thread, but, you know - being misled with fulfilment dates shouldn't be an expectation. Not from people who are supposedly running a professional business.

Ya, when you get down off your soapbox, be sure to read my post again, I didn't say 'be patient'. Those are words shoved in my mouth based on one user being frustrated with a 57 page thread and taking it out on me based on me making a single post.

So no offense but you can keep your completely misguided, rude and misinformed advice, at least until you bother to read what I actually wrote. The only thing better than one user putting unreasonable words (which he apologized for) in my mouth is a second one following up patronizing me for things I never said.

My 2nd post, which does address OTHER peoples use of 'be patient', is my opinion on how I RECEIVE the advice. I am allowed to have an opinion aren't I?

Maybe instead of focusing on me, focus on yourself. I made one damn post in this thread and only expressed sympathies for both sides. You guys put out novels of fiction based on things I never said. Look in the mirror.

Now I'll talk with my MOD hat on -

This is getting a bit ridiculous guys. No one getting worked up at anyone here us going to make things go any faster. There is a bit too much aggression and ill advised advice going around just because someone is more or less upset than someone else. This is not SWMs customer service page, nor is anyone here an SWM customer service representative. If you have real problems you want answered, head over to their KS page and deal with it there. Otherwise live and let live, stay on topic and quit telling other people how to think or turning everything you don't agree with into an attack.

Further posts dedicated only to how other users should speak will be considered off topic. If it breaks the rules, hit the yellow triangle. If not, then move on.

 Azazelx wrote:
How's BGG's rep, by the way?

Same as Warseer and Bols, no one ever talks about them.

 Azazelx wrote:

I'm also not sure how you seem to think that you know any more than many specific others here about what Dakka's "rep in the industry" is like. We've got a lot of well-informed people here, after all.

Working in the industry, talking to industry peers.

 Azazelx wrote:

On the SWM KS, the fact that it's slowly become apparent that the KS fulfilment is the same as retail fulfilment is a bit of an annoyance as well.

You expected them to only make enough for the Kickstarter and then be done?

 Azazelx wrote:

So it would be a nice gesture from Justin on an 8-9 month late project, but one which he is apparently unwilling to do.

Unwilling and Unable are two seperate things. He is Unable to reopen it, as BackerKit doesn't offer that kind of support. There was talk of Backers being able to purchase more stuff at the same prices using the SWM store once the boards are on a boat, and I don't remember seeing that not being a thing.

The Ruined Temple theme is still on time at least.

 MajorTom11 wrote:
Ya, when you get down off your soapbox, be sure to read my post again, I didn't say 'be patient'. Those are words shoved in my mouth based on one user being frustrated with a 57 page thread and taking it out on me based on me making a single post.

I've re-read your (recent) posts. I misinterpreted your previous post where you referenced "be patient" as it read to me that this is what you'd told others. I was wrong on that and so I apologise.

 Cyporiean wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
How's BGG's rep, by the way?

Same as Warseer and Bols, no one ever talks about them.
Working in the industry, talking to industry peers.

See, those differ to what I hear. Which means that your anecdotal experiences don't speak for everyone.

 Cyporiean wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

On the SWM KS, the fact that it's slowly become apparent that the KS fulfilment is the same as retail fulfilment is a bit of an annoyance as well.

You expected them to only make enough for the Kickstarter and then be done?

No, don't be silly. I expected backers' product to ship before retail product though, which is the usual method. Well, unless GENCON looms near.

 Cyporiean wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

So it would be a nice gesture from Justin on an 8-9 month late project, but one which he is apparently unwilling to do.

Unwilling and Unable are two seperate things. He is Unable to reopen it, as BackerKit doesn't offer that kind of support. There was talk of Backers being able to purchase more stuff at the same prices using the SWM store once the boards are on a boat, and I don't remember seeing that not being a thing.

I didn't see that in any updates. Was it in comments somewhere? I'd have thought that it would be more useful to do so before things got loaded onto a boat, due to international distribution details.

The Ruined Temple theme is still on time at least.

Hurrah.

edit - fixed quote tags.

Thanks for that.... Was feeling a bit picked on in this thread not gonna lie. I had no idea feelings were running so hot.

Like I said though, honestly if you are truly upset the best thing to do us take it over to KS, it is the place it will be seen, here, only maybe.

 Azazelx wrote:
No, don't be silly. I expected backers' product to ship before retail product though, which is the usual method. Well, unless GENCON looms near.

That should still be the case, just because product earmarked for non-KS sales is in the container doesn't mean its shipping first.

 Azazelx wrote:
I didn't see that in any updates. Was it in comments somewhere?

It was either in the main comment stream, or one of the updates. In either case, its too much of a PITA to try to find where it is with KS's comment system. :/

 Azazelx wrote:
I'd have thought that it would be more useful to do so before things got loaded onto a boat, due to international distribution details.

This we agree on.

Whao, DarkTraveler. I want to preface that I respect your skills in this hobby, and have came across and read your blog a couple of times.

But you need to take a step back for a moment and think with a objective eye.

Yah it sucks that the Kickstart has been held up for BOXES of all things. The packageing we take for granted and throw out as soon as we get it! We're waiting for someothing that will be lucky if it even makes it into a recycleing bin for some people! Yes, it feels silly for us the consumers.

But think of this from the point of view of the people makeing this happen. As much as it sucks, they do need the boxs. Like was said, for cost and logistic reasons they need the boxed product in the shipping container as a single order. A container of product and a container of boxs is just not economical for them.

Well I admit i had to pass on the kickstarter at the time it was going, i full well plan to order these as soon as they go on their webstore! I don't need a fancy box for that as much as you do. But sadly it's unavoidable in this case.

Is there a rough time frame when they will be released for general sales yet? now that the ks stuff is up and floating i'm getting a little keen to find out how much a 6x4 will cost me and when i can get one to fight Azazelx on one day :-)