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I still think the jury is way out on the Flyers. People dog the DA flyers as well but I've seen a Dark Talon far exceed a Hell Drakes damage output over the course of a game. I think with the right synergistic combinations the new Tau fliers could shine as well.

 Peregrine wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
Well there had to be a reason to make people buy Kroot, right?

Or not. TBH the sniper Kroot are pretty useless, you're already probably taking sniper drones (for the BS 5 markerlights) and Kroot are just too fragile to be proper scoring units.

You're assuming everyone has infallible tactics and won't be drawn to it by the "oh cool" or new and shiny factor. They suck, but will get a bunch to buy some Kroot anyway.

Sniper Kroot don't compete for Heavy Support slots, but you're right that Sniper Drone Teams make better sniper squads overall. BS5 Rapid Fire snipers, with twice the range, are always going to be much better than BS3 Heavy snipers. Point for point, the SDT will put out more wounds per turn at all ranges than an equivalent amount of Kroot, unless you're not taking the max number of spotters.

I'd rather use my HS slots for 60" AP3 pieplates though.

I think Kroot snipers have potential as anti-monstrous creature suicide squads. Infiltrate them up close to some big Tyranids and just strip the wounds off. They probably won't last long afterwards, but it should be a fair points exchange. That and I hate my mates tervigons...

I think using Sdt is going to depend on how much fusion you have in your elite/fa slots.

As for the fireblade ethereal stacking it seems a bit pointless, you could just buy a second firewarrior squad instead to get the same amount of firepower with a lot more wounds and mobility.

The ethereal boosts are nice but our ability to take objectives is still questionable, for an army which relies so heavily on secondary objectives putting another vp on the table is extremely risky.

The more I look at this, the more I think the new codex has got the same critical weakness as the previous one; our troops are OK. But nothing more. As a consequence we are always going to by trying to cram as much as possible into other slots and take fairly minimal troop slots. This can lead to fairly crippling compromises because of slot saturation.

Other armies get round this by either having good troops that you don't mind using as the core of your army, or by having a mechanism to selectively move units into the troop slots and free up space elsewhere.

 Jadenim wrote:
The more I look at this, the more I think the new codex has got the same critical weakness as the previous one; our troops are OK. But nothing more. As a consequence we are always going to by trying to cram as much as possible into other slots and take fairly minimal troop slots. This can lead to fairly crippling compromises because of slot saturation.

Other armies get round this by either having good troops that you don't mind using as the core of your army, or by having a mechanism to selectively move units into the troop slots and free up space elsewhere.

Fire Warriors are slightly better now, but you're right, overall it didn't change much. Devilfish is worse than before, and I see almost no point including them.

Photon Grenades are somewhat questionable "upgrade". Most Tau veterans didn't take them, because they wanted Fire Warriors to break in combat immediately, so they could wipe out assaulting unit in the next turn with concentrated firepower. As I see it, Photon grenades are good only if there is a counter-assault unit which can come in next turn and save Fire Warriors useless asses, but since Kroot were nerfed, Tau no longer have such unit!

It's stuff like this which makes you want to question whether Vetock has ever even played Tau.

valace2 wrote:
Am still processing what I have read, dunno if anyone had mentioned that Skyfire would be available to regular Crisis teams as well as Riptides and Broadsides but the Velocity Tracker is open to all three slots.

You could turn a Crisis team into a dedicated anti air unit by giving them both a Velocity Tracker and an Early Warning Override which gives them interceptor as well as skyfire. Only problem is that they don't have a weapon that can compare to the Rail gun the broadsides get or to the 12 shots at Str7 a Missileside squad can put out. Broadsides can't get interceptor though, it kind of sucks they got the short end of the stick when it comes to support systems.

If you go full missles it is 6 or 8 twinlink per broadside. Don't recall off hand if both sets are heavy missiles. so a sqaud will put out 18-24 shots. Not surprised they got the shaft on interceptor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jadenim wrote:
The more I look at this, the more I think the new codex has got the same critical weakness as the previous one; our troops are OK. But nothing more. As a consequence we are always going to by trying to cram as much as possible into other slots and take fairly minimal troop slots. This can lead to fairly crippling compromises because of slot saturation.

Other armies get round this by either having good troops that you don't mind using as the core of your army, or by having a mechanism to selectively move units into the troop slots and free up space elsewhere.

I think the idea was to wither push Tau to 2000pt games or make them the "super" ally choice. Just look at what you can stack in the ally slots

hq: Fire blade
Elite: Riptide
Troop: 12 fire warrior + pulse drone
Fast: Razorshark
Hvy: 3 broadside of choice

That makes a nasty gunline anchor especially for eldar that is between 6 and 700 points. Drop the flyer, which is going to be a very good dog fighter thanks to the tail turret, and you are down to just over 500 points.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Neorealist wrote:
perhaps. And when you don't play against heldrakes, do you really want your entire force loaded up on skyfire that now snapfires against most of the opposing force? At best that is essentially 10 points more than they should be for no real force multiplying benefit (presuming interceptor 'and' skyfire) unless your opponent is taking a lot of fliers and at worst your broadsides will sit there twiddling their thumbs and taking ineffectual potshots while your opponents mostly land-based units rofl-stomp their way through your lines.

it definately pays to be prepared which is why i said you probably want one or two AA options, but going full-'skyfire' is probably going to bad for your overall win percentage.

You miss read the vetro tracking rule, it is optional at the start of the turn. So unless you are facing flyers you can go full BS on ground targets.

[qoute]

Technically they haven't lost the TA since the FW unit entry specifically gives permission to take one, not just a generic "may take vehicle upgrades" note.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3130063a_Tau_Empire_v1.0_APRIL13.pdf

Only Broadsides may take Missile Drones. Good job Games Workshop.

Actually a good thing. Now tau won't be blamed for missile spam cheese.

In regards to anti air, I know I am going to be running 2 missile pod teams with skyfire and interceptor, its pricey but I would much rather pay that than have a heldrake fly on board and cook an entire unit of suits/fire warriors. I have constantly considered the two and while broadsides are more powerful that one turn of shooting from a flyer could cripple your army and I do not want to take that chance. I feel that tau are going to be a tad bit better at standard tank popping than before, we just have so many freaking str 7 shots that we can glance everything to death. And for land raiders we can just pull out longstrike or meltas.

OH that FAQ sucks all ready. There goes the hordes of str 7 shots

Darkstrider+pathfinders with special drones is almost unassaultable, and makes the railrifles instakill marines.

Glad they pointed it out before everyone went all missile drone happy for their crisis suits.

Good on them, definately makes it easier to slot them in somewhere.

Havok couldn't the marines just shoot the finders and kill them as they get no armor save against ap 5?
Also I got a tournament in a week and am hoping to face off against some flyer heavy armies, its gonna be fun blowing them up left and right

khuffy wrote:
Havok couldn't the marines just shoot the finders and kill them as they get no armor save against ap 5?

Place in cover. Problem solved.

Can't argue with that, And Jadenim has it spot on for our codex, We really still have sucky troop choices (those kroot snipers are nice, but still just not good enough), I for one am going to just take two troops and camp them on my side while the elites and heavy support go out to do the mans work.

What do you guys think about the emp grenades? they seem like they could be useful if in a tight spot with fire warriors.

This is the unit I want to run...

Commander w/ Command and Control Node, Multi Spectrum Sensor Suite, and Drone Controller 128pts

3x Broadsides w/ SMS and High Yield Missile Pods, Early Warning Override, and 2x Missile Drones each 282 points

This squad can pump out 36 missiles all of which ignore cover and are twin linked, 12 are at BS5 and the rest are at BS3. An oh yea 12 of the Str7 and the 12 Str5 shots have interceptor so most flyers are going to be SOL because thanks to the commander no jink save.

Who needs markerlights for this squad? Add in a 12 man firewarrior squad and it is one amazing allied detachment.

You could even jazz it up a bit, the commander could take the Iridium armour and even a weapon just for fun. Then turn around and stick the whole mess up on a Skyshield Landing Pad for a better view and a nice 4+ invuln across the board.

 Peregrine wrote:
Step 1: Spam markerlights. This is not Codex:Tau, it's Codex:Markerlights. With markerlights your units are awesome. Without them you're a shooting-only army that is limited to BS 2-3. You're probably going to need to spend 25-50% or more of your points on markerlights.

Step 2: Spam missile drones. Since you have tons of markerlights they're cheap BS 5 "autocannons". Every unit in your army should have at least a pair, and if you can possibly take more than two drones per unit you should do so without question.

Enjoy your new codex.

When I read some reviews on how the markerlight system works I was really impressed. Synergistic rules like this are what defines a faction in game terms and I am really happy they did something like this. The fact that other rules then lend themselves to the buffs from markerlights (like supporting fire) actually make Tau a really unique army imo.

TBH I've thought the Tau were the most boring and pointless faction since their initial release, now I think they're one of the most interesting Xeno factions, on par with Orks for actual fun and playability.

Another thing I really like is heavy access to skyfire. This will probably change the meta across the board as players can't rely on entirely flyer based armies to win by dint of their resilience alone.

I really don't think the markerlights are so much synergy as they are a crutch. You absolutely need to take markerlights or be stuck with BS3. That's why I'm planning on bringing a cheap HQ with probably a few missile suits teaming up with marker drone squads, and probably throw on the iridium armor and target locks. I get a unit of tough missile suits to pelt targets while lighting up another unit with markers. This will give my plasma/fusion suits buffs to ignore armor/cover and shoot at BS5.

Hammerhead- I'm thinking Longstrike in a hammerhead using submunitions will be funny against Guard, but I'm not sure if I'm a big fan of the tank right now.

SDT- I don't think I'm a big fan of the sniper drone teams. Maybe in a Double FOC, but not below 2k.

Missile Drones- I'm honestly bothered that we can't take BS2 missile drones now. They could have made them BS2, unaffected by markers and drone controllers and I would still be fine. It would atleast give FW some extra firepower.

Ethereal- the only reason I would bring these would be for the ability to run and snap fire. Used right, these could jump from cover to cover and get to do some damage as well.

So, is Mech Tau now dead?

On the face of things it kinda looks that way... our transports didn't get any cheaper, the DPod is more expensive and less effective. And, of course, without the ability to fire as a fast vehicle, you don't have the ability to zoom around the board with impunity anymore throwing scads of dice around with wild abandon. Not to mention no Target Locks or Targeting Arrays.

On the other hand... 10pts gets you twin-linked SMS, and our BC get an extra shot. Even a stock Fish is throwing 3 more shots per turn around. Point Defense Systems seem an interesting option, as it would allow you to support your dismounted FWs... or allow you to Overwatch those crunchy melee types who like to wreck your ride with grenades or scads of melee attacks.

And of course, there's the new and improved FISH OF FURY. Put a stock Ethereal in a Fish along with 11 FWs (or 9 + 2 Gun Drones, your choice). Choose Storm of Fire. Unleash 33 pulse shots to the face, plus another 8 from the Fish, for a total of 41. That's 12 more shots than the old 4th/5th edition version. Since the Ethereal only needs to be within 12" (or more accurately, the 'Fish he's in...), you can easily dump multiple squads out to jackhammer the snot out of your units of choice. Markerlight support to taste, of course.

I also think that EMP grenades are going to be one of those subtle changes that really change things for folks who choose to use them. It neatly solves the AV13/14 problem, giving us the ability to strip hullpoints as needed. Use the 'Fish to block those nasty nasty Hurricane Bolters, and go to town. They're even worth throwing at DakkaDreads in a lot of cases, assuming you've got a large enough squad.

I also feel that a mech heavy list with plenty of SMS is currently underrated, given the current prevalence of cover save mechanics as a way to preserve cheap objective holders. 30" range plus 6" move, TL, no need for LOS, ignores cover, and is S5... easy way to remove Scout Teams, IG command teams, etc etc etc. If it's a small squad in an important location that depends on cover to live, it's gonna die in short order.

Hammerheads... I think that Ion Cannons, SMS, and a Darksun Filter are pretty much the default configuration these days. Which is nice, because that's how all of mine are modeled. That 60" AP3 pieplate is going to cause some serious difficulty for a lot of armies out there, especially with the ability to ML a target and ignore cover saves. Easily the end of Aegishammer as we know it, IMO.

Oh, lastly... the Skyray. I know a lot of folks hate it, and it's not my favorite, but I think there's some value here that a lot of folks may be missing. First, it's got Skyfire Markerlights... which means you can use it to mark a flyer, then launch seekers from another vehicle at the back end of said flyer. Oh, and if it doesn't move, it can toss 6 seekers (plus 2 more if it buys them), plus SMS shots, at a flyer of choice... likely at BS5, due to it's networked markerlights. Probably not the ultimate counter to Helldrakes, sure, but would put the hurt on a whole lot of other things. Like FMCs, for example.

I'm a bit glad broadsides can only take missile drones, it just makes more sense and the spam from it would have heavily changed the meta game. Secondly is it still an option to give the xv8 suits an upgrade to battlesuits like it was in the last codex. If so you could still get around this.

valace2 wrote:
Am still processing what I have read, dunno if anyone had mentioned that Skyfire would be available to regular Crisis teams as well as Riptides and Broadsides but the Velocity Tracker is open to all three slots.

You could turn a Crisis team into a dedicated anti air unit by giving them both a Velocity Tracker and an Early Warning Override which gives them interceptor as well as skyfire. Only problem is that they don't have a weapon that can compare to the Rail gun the broadsides get or to the 12 shots at Str7 a Missileside squad can put out. Broadsides can't get interceptor though, it kind of sucks they got the short end of the stick when it comes to support systems.

Except....broadsides can totally take Interceptor, which is on the Early Warning Override. They just can't take both skyfire AND interceptor. But then again you don't really need to. Broadside units are putting out 12 TL Str 7 shots around, If you take missile drones then that number gets upped to 24 shots. I mean on average you're going to get at least a couple glances on a flyer as soon as it enters the board with that. And you can still use that to pop regular vehicles. And if you take the missile drones then the unit doesn't become completely useless once an intercept happens.

 Nafarious wrote:
I'm a bit glad broadsides can only take missile drones, it just makes more sense and the spam from it would have heavily changed the meta game. Secondly is it still an option to give the xv8 suits an upgrade to battlesuits like it was in the last codex. If so you could still get around this.

I think it also makes all the Ion weapons a little more effective as you can't outclass them with missile drones. Too bad you can't take Ion Rifles outside of pathfinder squads.

hq: Fire blade
Elite: Riptide
Troop: 12 fire warrior + pulse drone
Fast: Razorshark
Hvy: 3 broadside of choice

This looks like a nice ally force.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I really don't think the markerlights are so much synergy as they are a crutch. You absolutely need to take markerlights or be stuck with BS3. That's why I'm planning on bringing a cheap HQ with probably a few missile suits teaming up with marker drone squads, and probably throw on the iridium armor and target locks. I get a unit of tough missile suits to pelt targets while lighting up another unit with markers. This will give my plasma/fusion suits buffs to ignore armor/cover and shoot at BS5.

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't markerlights come stock with most of the crisis suits and other popular units? I will admit I don't know a lot about Tau, or about the new dex, but seems you get them no matter what, so may as well use them. They seem to work similarly to IG orders in that sense.

 More Dakka wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I really don't think the markerlights are so much synergy as they are a crutch. You absolutely need to take markerlights or be stuck with BS3. That's why I'm planning on bringing a cheap HQ with probably a few missile suits teaming up with marker drone squads, and probably throw on the iridium armor and target locks. I get a unit of tough missile suits to pelt targets while lighting up another unit with markers. This will give my plasma/fusion suits buffs to ignore armor/cover and shoot at BS5.

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't markerlights come stock with most of the crisis suits and other popular units? I will admit I don't know a lot about Tau, or about the new dex, but seems you get them no matter what, so may as well use them. They seem to work similarly to IG orders in that sense.

Not at all, and don't worry because it's a silly system that only Tau players are familiar with. Markerlights are a Heavy 1 weapon. So Drones are the only unit that can move and fire them. Other units that can get them are Stealth teams, with only 1 markerlight, fireblades, and pathfinders. I don't have the new dex yet, so I may have missed a few. Basically getting drones with an HQ gives you multiple mobile BS5 markerlights. The best option in my book.

Oh ok, so it's still kinda like the old dex where you play either a markerlight army or a mobile army, except now the mobile option isn't there anymore?

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 More Dakka wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I really don't think the markerlights are so much synergy as they are a crutch. You absolutely need to take markerlights or be stuck with BS3. That's why I'm planning on bringing a cheap HQ with probably a few missile suits teaming up with marker drone squads, and probably throw on the iridium armor and target locks. I get a unit of tough missile suits to pelt targets while lighting up another unit with markers. This will give my plasma/fusion suits buffs to ignore armor/cover and shoot at BS5.

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't markerlights come stock with most of the crisis suits and other popular units? I will admit I don't know a lot about Tau, or about the new dex, but seems you get them no matter what, so may as well use them. They seem to work similarly to IG orders in that sense.

Not at all, and don't worry because it's a silly system that only Tau players are familiar with. Markerlights are a Heavy 1 weapon. So Drones are the only unit that can move and fire them. Other units that can get them are Stealth teams, with only 1 markerlight, fireblades, and pathfinders. I don't have the new dex yet, so I may have missed a few. Basically getting drones with an HQ gives you multiple mobile BS5 markerlights. The best option in my book.

Fire Warrior teams can get them too.

Well in the old codex most armies ran mobile suits with twin-linked weapons to avoid the drawbacks on markerlights (Mostly being on expensive and fragile units with BS3 and couldn't move and shoot).

Forgeworld made the Tetra which was mobile, tough, cheap, and accurate. This made armies a bit more diverse, but still I think most armies stuck to mobile missile and broadside heavy lists. Vehicles were not often used, just because Broadsides are better.

This time around markerdrones are available on cheap drone squads. Suits are just as mobile and have better weapon options now thanks to fusion blasters with 18" range.

Vehicles aren't any better. Burst cannons are twin-linked 4 shots on vehicles you're probably going to use markerlights to boost....so the old 6 shot burst cannons were probably better. Now they aren't able to move as fast and too large to enjoy the terrain ignoring effect of being a skimmer. Add in that they are too large to easily hide and you're looking at a unit that needs to keep shuffing side to side, limiting it's own shooting just to survive.