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I'm not sure if the dual missile pods would be TL or 4 shots. Either or it looks nasty, stick that in a missile broadside squad and rain down tankhunter S7.

Nevermind.

Ion Cannon vs Rail cannon? that overcharge template is pretty tempting, but gets hot on vehicles makes it pretty risky.

No one has noticed how good Shadowsun is yet?

Gives entire unit Stealth and Shrouded, hello Kroot Snipers, Hound pack behind an aegis.

And you can take her 3++ drone, when she dies the drone attaches to the kroot.

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Gives entire unit Stealth and Shrouded, hello Kroot Snipers, Hound pack behind an aegis.

Isn't that thinking a bit small? Why waste a bonus on Kroot (which can go to ground behind the aegis and lose nothing, or just buy more bodies with Shadowsun's points) when you can give that 2++ to an outflanking terminator death star?

 Peregrine wrote:

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Gives entire unit Stealth and Shrouded, hello Kroot Snipers, Hound pack behind an aegis.

Isn't that thinking a bit small? Why waste a bonus on Kroot (which can go to ground behind the aegis and lose nothing, or just buy more bodies with Shadowsun's points) when you can give that 2++ to an outflanking terminator death star?

I don't think he wants allies...

 Peregrine wrote:

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Gives entire unit Stealth and Shrouded, hello Kroot Snipers, Hound pack behind an aegis.

Isn't that thinking a bit small? Why waste a bonus on Kroot (which can go to ground behind the aegis and lose nothing, or just buy more bodies with Shadowsun's points) when you can give that 2++ to an outflanking terminator death star?

Shadowsun and Farsight both have incredible rules. I suspect these are the HQs you'll see most at tournaments with the second HQ slot going to a support focused Crisis Commander if they're the primary detachment.

I read a lot of complaints about the devilfish. I'm a bit confused. I feel like it's pretty damn good if a bit expensive. It's a skimmer and a tank, comes with a free burst cannon. Always getting a cover save, can tank shock to force morale, offer a bit of supporting fire and gives you mobility if you don't roll well for objectives and you absolutely have to get to a forward point. Pretty damn good all things considered. I'd happily run two of them for my basic firewarriors. Spam is obviously out of the question, but it really isn't that bad.

Then again, having started with orks, most every other transport looks good compared to a Trukk.

 Peregrine wrote:

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Gives entire unit Stealth and Shrouded, hello Kroot Snipers, Hound pack behind an aegis.

Isn't that thinking a bit small? Why waste a bonus on Kroot (which can go to ground behind the aegis and lose nothing, or just buy more bodies with Shadowsun's points) when you can give that 2++ to an outflanking terminator death star?

A 2++ what now?

 L0rdF1end wrote:
A 2++ what now?

Remember that fluff abomination where Tau and C:SM are battle brothers? Attach Shadowsun to an allied terminator death star and it gains the outflank rule and a 2++ as long as you're smart enough to give them some cover. Suddenly Tau are delivering the assault unit from hell directly to those nice vulnerable scoring units on your opponent's "home" objectives. And of course if you take the appropriate Badab War character as your HQ those terminators are now scoring so once you've wiped out your opponent's scoring units they're stuck with scoring 2++ terminators on their objectives in the exact opposite direction from the rest of your army.

Note that this also works for bikes (bike captain to make them scoring, and a permanent T5/2++ even out in the open) and Wraithguard (T6/2++ sitting on an objective with a divination HQ) if you prefer those options.

Luford wrote:


Commander
- Missile Pod
- Missile Pod
- Skyfire
- Interceptor
- Puretide Engram Neurochip
- Multi-Spectrum Sensor Suite


why would this be illegal davou? commander can take four weapons/support AND take gear from the special item list. Unless it says somewhere you can't pick two weapons of the same type? I know it said specifically you can't pick the same gear twice in the old codex but i can not see it anywhere in the new one.

"Where a weapon has two points costs, the first is for a standard, single version and the second is for two weapons (counting as a twin-linked weapon of that type). A twin-linked weapon counts as two choices from this list." (Pg. 141, Codex: Tau Empire [Digital])

So by default, when you select two options it becomes the twin-linked version of that system. I suspect it could be rules-lawyered to say that you can take one TL and then one single (for a total of three) since the rule doesn't explicitly forbid you from taking a third of the same weapon, though I don't believe that's the intention. Probably needs to be FAQed, as much as I hate to say so. Still, the intention of the rule is there - just like the previous codex, you take one and its a single; two, and its a TL version.

Signature Systems do not count towards your hard-point limit, and in the unit entries are explicitly listed outside of the entry that limits how many systems you can take.

E.g.:
"Options:
- May take up to four items from the Ranged Weapons and/or Support Systems lists.
- May take items from the Signature Systems list.
- May take up to two drones from the Drones list." (Pg. 148, Codex: Tau Empire [Digital])

Note that the Signature Items listing is separate from any entry that delineates a hard limit (other than the already set, unique 'one per detachment' limit allotted to Signature Systems).

Still, your commander is legally outfitted, he would just have a TL-Missile Pod plus the Early warning override and Velocity tracker.

As for the original topic, I had written some notes but would rather not get caught up in the rolling debates that continue as the dust still settles from the Codex landing. I am still mulling and theorycrafting at the moment, though I will say already that I'm not buying the doom-and-gloom portents from some. I think the Tau have a good Codex, and I'm very happy with how things turned out. STR 10 Broadside Railguns will be missed, but simply put they would have been far too overpowered with the Support System additions. They were already auto-include as it was - STR 10 AP 1 72 inch Sky-fire or Interceptor fire would have been over the top. I might wish that they had given it Lance, but it still remains a viable unit - just not a solid AV14 counter. Still, we'll see how the power-curve ends up as GW continues to release new Codices.

Some other interesting thoughts - Broadsides can't take Vectored Retro-Thrusters. But a Commander can. Add Drones, attach the Shas'o to the unit; now you have Broadsides with Hit and Run. In fact, with all the benefits a Commander can give a wider variety of units, between Signature Systems and potential equipment options, the "Shield'O" concept has become very powerful and offers quite a bit of synergy and opportunity to any Tau army.

Has anyone done any math-hammer yet on the points efficiency of various avenues to markerlights? Pathfinders seem to be the cheapest, but BS5 has a strong draw too. By comparison, you can get a barebones Commander with Drone Controller and six Marker drones for 165 pts. For the same points cost you can get 15 Pathfinders. ~5 (4.98) markerlight hits (Commander Marker Drone Team) to ~7-8 (7.5) markerlight hits (Pathfinders)- plus, if you don't intend on taking any other Fast Attack slots (Heavy and Elite tend to eat up the points I have in the lists I've worked on so far, and I end up filling the FOC for those choices quickly) you can field the Pathfinders in units of 5, and potentially target three separate units. Which is better? Still considering.

GhostRecon wrote:
So by default, when you select two options it becomes the twin-linked version of that system.

No, the rule is perfectly clear. You have two options:

Take a single weapon counting as one choice for X points.

Take a twin-linked weapon counting as two choices for Y points.

There is nothing preventing you from taking the first option two times if you're willing to spend the extra points (a single twin-linked weapon is MUCH cheaper* than taking two independent weapons).



*Consider the "good" weapons: 20 points for one twin-linked (equivalent of 1.5 guns), 30 points for two separate guns. You pay 50% more points for 33% more firepower unless you're using markerlights to get above BS 3, so there's a strong argument for just taking the cheaper TL gun.

For the same points cost you can get 15 Pathfinders.

Note that this means spending two fast attack slots on markerlights instead of melta Piranhas, Barracudas or XV9s. Can you do it? Yes. Do you want to do it? I'm not convinced.

Also, for markerlights you should consider sniper drones. Sure, the drones themselves are little more than meatshields for the spotters, but for 84 points you get three BS 5 markerlights while only spending a single FOC slot. And IMO heavy support is our least-valuable FOC slot since all we really get is broadsides and you probably don't want three units of them.

 Peregrine wrote:

GhostRecon wrote:
So by default, when you select two options it becomes the twin-linked version of that system.

No, the rule is perfectly clear. You have two options:

Take a single weapon counting as one choice for X points.

Take a twin-linked weapon counting as two choices for Y points.

There is nothing preventing you from taking the first option two times if you're willing to spend the extra points (a single twin-linked weapon is MUCH cheaper* than taking two independent weapons).



*Consider the "good" weapons: 20 points for one twin-linked (equivalent of 1.5 guns), 30 points for two separate guns. You pay 50% more points for 33% more firepower unless you're using markerlights to get above BS 3, so there's a strong argument for just taking the cheaper TL gun.

For the same points cost you can get 15 Pathfinders.

Note that this means spending two fast attack slots on markerlights instead of melta Piranhas, Barracudas or XV9s. Can you do it? Yes. Do you want to do it? I'm not convinced.

Also, for markerlights you should consider sniper drones. Sure, the drones themselves are little more than meatshields for the spotters, but for 84 points you get three BS 5 markerlights while only spending a single FOC slot. And IMO heavy support is our least-valuable FOC slot since all we really get is broadsides and you probably don't want three units of them.

Ah, re-reading the entry for the Ranged Weapons I'd have to say that seems more right. So you can take multiples of the single-weapon version - nice!

Also, I find myself leaning more towards Hammerheads at the moment than Broadsides, though admittedly I'm still working on list-theory. Right now looking at one with Longstrike and one backing him up. BS4 out of the box is nice, and the railgun is a good, versatile weapon. Pair that with a DP and Sensor Spines and you can park it in the middle of a ruin if you wanted, and anytime it moves and any cover it enters (without worrying about dangerous terrain) only increases its survivability. AV 13 helps. High Yield Missile Pods are interesting, but I'm looking at keeping the "Fireknife" configuration on my suits, so I should have plenty of STR 7 saturation as it is. The core of my army at the moment is looking like it'll be a Riptide (EWO and VT), 2 three-suit Crisis Teams (Fireknife Configuration), and two Hammerheads (one with Longstrike).

I'm considering Sniper Drone Teams, though my problem with them is that you can only get three markerlights at maximum (though BS5 and having stealth are strong pluses. If only they had given Pathfinders stealth...). Will probably have to play-test.

Who else thinks that using Shadowsun to infiltrate in pathfinders and then jumping onto a deepstriking squad of fusion suits sounds like a pretty awesome idea?

Shadowsun in general seems to have a ton of trick possibilities. With a main of Eldar, I'm considering using her as an ally to infiltrate either Wraithguard or D-cannons.

Infiltrate, T6 (wraithguard) or T7 (artillery), Stealth, Shrouded, 0-2 20pt 3++ drones, and some nasty short range guns.

Take a squad of Pathfinders with Fireblade Cadre and a Pulse Accel Drone and put the unit in a Bastion with the windows pointed at the enemy. 12 shots plus the Heavy Bolter at BS5 tucked away in the "safety" of the AV14 building.

 Peregrine wrote:

Isn't that thinking a bit small? Why waste a bonus on Kroot (which can go to ground behind the aegis and lose nothing, or just buy more bodies with Shadowsun's points) when you can give that 2++ to an outflanking terminator death star?

Because then you have Space Marines allying with filthy xenos, you heretic!

 Crimson wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Isn't that thinking a bit small? Why waste a bonus on Kroot (which can go to ground behind the aegis and lose nothing, or just buy more bodies with Shadowsun's points) when you can give that 2++ to an outflanking terminator death star?

Because then you have Space Marines allying with filthy xenos, you heretic!

Im afraid whatever logic went into that decision is lost on me, im just assuming they wanted to make it so space marines could take some shooty, because if the logical conclusion of IG had been chosen it would precision strikes and artillery barrages all day

Wow the Shadowsun abuse is fully underway.....Its going to make DE/Eldar Beast packs look fluffy.

Shadowsun cannot infiltrate with a non infiltrate unit -- they are deployed at different times and thus the non infiltrate unit must deploy with the rest of the army, or hang out in reserves.

She can, however, outflank along with any unit she drags along with her.

I am so buying Shadowsun.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Shadowsun cannot infiltrate with a non infiltrate unit -- they are deployed at different times and thus the non infiltrate unit must deploy with the rest of the army, or hang out in reserves.

It's written the opposite way.

An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment.

Quark wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Shadowsun cannot infiltrate with a non infiltrate unit -- they are deployed at different times and thus the non infiltrate unit must deploy with the rest of the army, or hang out in reserves.

It's written the opposite way.

An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment.

Right, because it's not possible to attach her to none infiltrators unless she forfeits her infiltration because that squad has to deploy before her.

Unless you reserve it. Join shadowsun to unit X in reserve, X gets outflank.

 Blaggard wrote:
Unless you reserve it. Join shadowsun to unit X in reserve, X gets outflank.

Right, my point was in regards to infiltration though.

Right, yeah. The unit gets the infiltrate rule only when she's a part of it and it deploys first. As you stated.

Does shadowsun sound like a good combination with marker drones?

Also, can you use markerlights to make snap shots increase in BS? In that case, the hammerhead isn't dead!!!! Woot! Woot!

So, unless both the character and the unit have infiltrate, they can't deploy together (unless the one with infiltrate is infiltrating inside your deployment zone) right?

Also, FoW, you are right, but with only 4 shots on the secondary weapon, there isn't much point on wasting all your markerlight hits


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, you mean being able to move a hammerhead 12" and use 4-5 markerlights to bring up its BS every once in a while. It's possible, but really relies on you not needing your markerlights for other things like improving other squads BS... or ignoring cover.

Or seeker missiles

Shadowsun does not have a drone controller in her wargear list - she can join some marker drones to give them stealth/shrouded, but they'll shoot at bs2 only.

Regarding Shadowsun w/Termies why outflank.

Shrike + Shadowsun + 10 TH/SS Termies = Infiltrating, fleet termies with a 2++ cover save. Detach Shadowsun once the Termies are preparing to charge to take advantage of fleet

 Hulksmash wrote:
Regarding Shadowsun w/Termies why outflank.

Shrike + Shadowsun + 10 TH/SS Termies = Infiltrating, fleet termies with a 2++ cover save. Detach Shadowsun once the Termies are preparing to charge to take advantage of fleet

Or, add a Ninja'O - now those Terminators have Hit and Run too. Pull back in the enemy's assault phase. Charge again - more attacks! Or use the Hit and Run move to boost to something you actually wanted to hurt, and bash its face in. Tarpit? What tarpit?