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Now, it is well known and stated many times that the SW gene-seed only works with Fenrisians and will only cause mutations with others, thus making it impossible for SW to have successors or for renegade/lost Great Companies to replenish their numbers.

BUT

The first members of the VI Legion were recruited and created on Holy Terra and they did not show any inherit instability (AFAIK) but still turned out rather feral and wolfy, like Russ.............. wat?
So does that mean the mutations only commenced on Fenris? If yes, why? And how did they do it without their Cup of Wulfen and Gates of Morkai ritual?

And finally, would that mean that SW could be created/recreated elsewhere?
Let's pull the old trick of a Great Company with many Terran SW gets lost on the Warp some time after the Crusade and reemerges on some colonized backwater planet in the Halo Zone on the Eastern Fringe (or where ever), wouldn't an Apothecary be able to take and replicate the Terran SW gene-seed, provided that he has appropriate equipment to do so, and thus making the local population more wolfy?
Well, provided they are 'ard enough.

What are your thoughts, please share.

The Space Wolves were a product of Leman Russ' DNA. So they exhibited the signs of him. And I sort of go for the thought because of that the she-wolf who reared him thought of him as wolfy and reared him as a pup. So that was what happened, and the Thousand Sons had something to do with the Wolf Brothers going highwire I think. And the 13th company have many Wulfen, which I take happens to people outside Fenris if exposed to Space Wolf DNA.

Perhaps the mutations in non-Fenrisians don't begin to show until years later. Leman Russ was the second primarch discovered, meaning there would've been a relatively short time period where the Space Wolves are made up of only Terrans.

Similarly, the Terran War Hounds were already known for their excessive viciousness before Angron was discovered. Adding the Butcher's Nails only amplified their natural inclination, instilled in them from the geneseed.

jareddm wrote:
Perhaps the mutations in non-Fenrisians don't begin to show until years later. Leman Russ was the second primarch discovered, meaning there would've been a relatively short time period where the Space Wolves are made up of only Terrans.

Similarly, the Terran War Hounds were already known for their excessive viciousness before Angron was discovered. Adding the Butcher's Nails only amplified their natural inclination, instilled in them from the geneseed.

Finding him still took years. Even with accelerated growth and all that it would take at least a couple decades for him to become king on Fenris and big E to find him. Wulfen mutation appears within weeks or months, but not decades.

It is natural, with Fenris being their recruitment world, that the old terran marines would die out but that still leaves a big question mark about whether replicated terran SW seed is something to build on.
I'm hoping to build a SW force at some point but I would like to create my own story seeing as I love DIY a lot, but I also do not like fluff butchering on Wardian levels, so I keep trying to find loop holes for a Lost Company to survive outside of Fenris.

Here is the quote from brother Valerian (B&C).....





"From the residue genetic helices of the Primarchs the Emperor created twenty Space Marine Legions, each utilising the genetic material derived from one of the Primarchs....The implants of the Space Wolves were developed from the genetic helix of the Primarch Leman Russ." 5th Edition Codex Space Wolves, page 8.

"Space Wolves are chosen from the bravest and noblest youths of Fenris. In the constant tribal warfare for possession of land, each youth is given a chance to fight and die in service of his warrior gods, the Emperor and Leman Russ. Space Marines must be selected young for them to have any chance of surviving the difficult transformation from normal human to superbeing."--WD156/246



"The Space Wolves, the 6th Legion, were the genetic progeny of Russ and carried within them a unique gift: the Canis Helix, the Mark of the Wolf that sets the Space Wolves apart from the Space Marines of other Chapters. The Canis Helix invests the Space Wolves with the acute predatory senses of the wolves native to their home world of Fenris, but this gift comes at a price: the Curse of the Wulfen. Those brothers who succumb to the Curse degenerate into savage, malformed parodies of their brethren. In most cases, the Curse manifests during training, but in others, the effects of the Curse become apparent many years later in the heat of battle. The Space Wolves' harsh induction regime generally ensures that these individuals perish at an early stage in the process. "Children of the Night - WD 283.

"Little needs to be said of Fenris, the inhospitable, ice-bound world from which the Space Wolves come, but whether the 13th Company have found a home within the Eye of Terror is unknown. Certainly, the Canis Helix would prove a vital factor in surviving within the Eye, for it is known that the Curse of the Wulfen is want to surface as a defence against the influence of Chaos." Children of the Night - WD 283.

"That the Canis Helix is responsible for the condition of the Wulfen is known, and it has been suggested that the savage force that resides within each Space Wolf has allowed the 13th Company to survive the long millennia of contact with the power of Chaos. What is not known is whether the 13th Company's presence within the Eye of Terror has tainted its gene-seed in any way." Children of the Night - WD 283.

"Before then the Emperor was unable to duplicate the long and arduous work which had created the Primarchs. Instead, from the residue genetic helices of the Primarchs the Emperor created twenty Space Marine Legions, each utilizing the genetic material derived from one of the Primarchs. Thus the warriors of the First Founding Legions echoed to some degree the particular strengths and powers of the Primarch whose genes were used to develop their implants. The implants of the Space Wolves were developed from the genetic helix [aka the "Canis" helix] of the Primarch Leman Russ, and so Space Wolves to this day have some of the qualities of this great man." The Wolves of Fenris - WD 246.

"The Wolf Priests guard the Chapter's genetic seed, bio-culturing new implants and maintaining the vigour of the strain by weeding out any weakness or mutation. Their knowledge is deep, and for many centuries they have studied the effects of the cursed Wulfen gene helix in a search for a way to modify it and make safe the Chapter's genetic seed. However, their efforts have only succeeded in preventing the curse spreading, and it is unlikely that the damage can ever be repaired completely." The Wolves of Fenris - WD 246.


"Although the aspirant does not know it, the feast had a purpose. The geneseed is beginning to work on his body, rushing through it and restructuring it. Muscle mass is being added, bones are beginning to fuse together, and the very structure of his brain is beginning to alter, quickening his reactions and heightening his perceptions. Vestigial fangs are starting to emerge. The venison provides the raw protein for this, and the sacred ale was laced with the necessary trace chemicals to fuel the change.

The aspirant knows none of this. He is wracked with pain and his body stretches and grows. His mind is haunted by visions and sanity fades. He becomes wolf-like, feral, maddened by agony and hunger. Now is the worst time, he is constantly hungry because his changing body needs more and more nourishment if it is to sustain growth. Failure to provide this will be fatal as his body begins to cannibalise itself.

These first few days are the most critical. The aspirant must feed often. He is usually left near a source of food such as an elk herd. Near mindless, he must hunt them down, eat their raw flesh and drink their blood. Some aspirants, unable to meet the challenge, perish. Some, whether due to some flaw in themselves or the geneseed, never get beyond this stage. They become mindless creatures, with an animal's cunning. They continue to grow and hunger for flesh, eventually becoming Wulfen, the most feared monsters on Fenris." -WD 156/246


Also from the 5th Edition Codex (page 10) is a brand new piece of lore: "The trial is long, for the warrior is taken a thousand miles into the barren wastes beyond the fortress of the Fang. He drinks from the Cup of Wulfen, and his body absorbs the first and most deadly gene-seed of the Space Wolves - the unique Canis gene helix."

You can't separate the Canis Helix from the rest of the geneseed. "The Canis Helix is necessary, however, as without this esential part of Leman Russ' heritage the other gene helices cannot be implanted at all." 5th Edition Codex (page10).

I get that, but that very Canis Helix has been implanted into terran humans and all the trials must not have been as extended considering how fast big E got them outside kicking stuff.
Also, I just don't buy that Chaos dropped Russ on the SINGLE planet in the galaxy that has humans, that just so happened to be compatible with that seed. That's even worse than CS Goto Multilaser Carnifex.
The last explanations would be that the Fenrisian-only note appeared on Fenris itself after some mutations. Fluff states that a guy named Wulfen was the first non-terran SW and turned into a Wulfen.
Another thing could be that the Wolf Bros were just an accident and the rest is folk-lore.
Be it as it may, no fluff states that pre-fenrisian seed from terran marines could not be harvested with the whole package that makes 'em wolfy and used on non-fenrisians. Perhaps it has the same traits but has a somewhat weaker effect on all sides (which would be jolly with my Lost Company) and that the addition of fenrisian DNA simply escalated the issue, THUS making successors not possible. None tried terran wolfy seed because they are all dead.
Seems too big to be an accidental loop hole. More like it's GWs way of telling 'do what you want, bro'.
Or perhaps noone ever thought of that, which would be stupid to assume.

I' now mate (insert my confused face), conflicting stuff indeed....according to Prospero Burns Longfang is only Terran there.....What if they were light version of SW known today? Or perhaps Russ's genes are the only things to blame for their wolfishnes?

 DarthMarko wrote:
I' now mate (insert my confused face), conflicting stuff indeed....according to Prospero Burns Longfang is only Terran there.....What if they were light version of SW known today? Or perhaps Russ's genes are the only things to blame for their wolfishnes?

I hear you. Damn, I really want to make a solid and awesome Lost Company thing. I got eveything apart from how they make the seed work... and being a fluffy guy I will not sleep well knowing that theres this small dirge in the side of my story.

 TheLionRampant wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
I' now mate (insert my confused face), conflicting stuff indeed....according to Prospero Burns Longfang is only Terran there.....What if they were light version of SW known today? Or perhaps Russ's genes are the only things to blame for their wolfishnes?

I hear you. Damn, I really want to make a solid and awesome Lost Company thing. I got eveything apart from how they make the seed work... and being a fluffy guy I will not sleep well knowing that theres this small dirge in the side of my story.

O how I envy you....Well, you know what they say. - everything is open for interpretation....

I kind of like Bran Redmaw Co. of biggest, baddest beasts in imperium....I'mean Bran goes like this : "Guys I'm turning now and off to the hunt, we will see you on the crimescene.... "

Wait, okay, I got this.
Every source states, that the Canis Helix is what makes the wolf, not the Fenrisian Breed. They only seem to exist on fenris because noone else has the helix. It was never said that Wolf Bros problem originated because they weren't fenrisian. For all we know some Tech Magi used the wrong tube, or, well, the Thousand Sons did mess about in the Fang, trolling the wolves. The failure then led them to the conclusion, that the failure was due to them not being Fenrisian (read: special). This is like saying 'my phone makes me better at poker, because I keep winning when I am holding it'. Lastly, Codex states, that there are no OFFICIAL successors, no some independant Lost Compang could very well exist and the SW do not speak of them, because of reasons like shame or ignorance. This could very well fly since SW are anti-authoritary and will not tell the Imperium things they themselves would like to forget.

So, imagine this scenario: a lost company was secretly given some of the canis helix before their willing departure (as to why is irrelevant at that point, for now anyway). Given that the equipment is there, Apothecaries can replicated organs and helix, since they somehow do it at home, no? They tried it with dead 'ard non fenrisians and according to everything said above, they would succeed, even if the seed will be subject to mutation depending on the region.

Well, if that doesn't work, I'll just go with a DA successor landing on a wolfy feral world and got all mixed up and became pseudo-SW, which is fairly far fetched considering DA marines and it doesn't feel right to have non Russy guy sporting wolfy stuff.. :(

But don't use the last thing - it's too much of a heresy

 TheLionRampant wrote:

I hear you. Damn, I really want to make a solid and awesome Lost Company thing. I got eveything apart from how they make the seed work... and being a fluffy guy I will not sleep well knowing that theres this small dirge in the side of my story.

The easy answer is that they don't. Your force is slowly dwindling into nothing until they find a compatible source of geneseed or return to Fenris. To simulate that, you could throw in a couple of Lone Wolves, only very few or no full-strength squads, no Blood Claws (of any kind!), etcetera.

Alternatively, screw "Canis Helix only works with Fenrisians"; there are a billion worlds in the Imperium, and more undiscovered ones. Random genetics can always throw a curve-ball and produce another world with compatible genetic stock.
SW not having successors used to be more to do with the Inquisition's distrust of them and the fact that the few successors that were made tended to come to a bad end (like the ill-fated Wolf Brothers). And ill-fated is all I've ever heard of what exactly happened to them.

First read Battle of the Fang to fill yourself in on some of your missing Wolf Brother lore.

From what I have read on the SW forums at the B&C, the theory is that being created by the Emperor is a lot more stable then being created by some wolf priests on Fenris. Hence that is why there were Terran Wolves that were created just fine and why Kaeriol (Wolf Brothers homeworld) Wolves went to crap.

Codex chapters get the whole successor thing for players to create custom chapters. Wolves players get the lost company angle. However most Wolves players will scoff at someone saying, "This is my Wolf Brothers successor chapter that did not mutate", because it has been stated since the beginning that we have no successors and now with BotF we see what happened to at least a Great Company of an attempted successor.

Just go with a lost company, minus the successor angle.

Aye, lost company it is. But it will e morr complicated than just coming back, hugging and treat it as water under the bridge. The Wolf Lord himself will make an oath of his company never setting a foot on Fenris again until Russ sees them as worthy once more. So somehow I will need to bypass the bitchy helix.
One of three ways:
1. Wizards sprinkling magic fairy dust on some random planet and they turn out just 'ard enough to make it.
2. I'll go with the lack of evidence of the Fenrisian-only hypothesis and have the guy getting a bit of helix handed to him (pseudo-heresy, but that is what is going to make it all much more tense).
3. Or maybe they had a ship of Fenrisian folks with them and they sorta settled in (no idea how that will even look like). Kidnapping Fenrisians also won't be an option, since some time of isolation and some campaigns will be a effective barrier to getting to Fenris... and I doubt the SW will like it.

But hell, it's Warhammer. If we have a Fex with Multilasers, we can have a Lost Company getting fresh blood. Not saying it will work just like that, but plot armour will get 'em through somehow.

I could use a different Primarch but... meh, I would struggle with the whys and hows and bringing some personality in. Most simply lack the touch of fantasy to them that Wolves (and DA to a lesser extend) have, IMO.

Lemun Russ altered the DNA of the Legion after he took over, the whole deal with the Cup of Wulfen.

Meh, well the Wolves still use the Legion's Organization system, not the Codex astartes one, so there is no problem in sayin' "look this 100 Wolves did this and that, kill that and this etcetera etcetera etcetera".
And, plus: the Canis Helix have the 85% of probability to bring flaws in a successor chapter, not the 100%.
So you *could* make a Successor Chapter.

Grey Templar wrote:Lemun Russ altered the DNA of the Legion after he took over, the whole deal with the Cup of Wulfen.

PunkNeverDie110 wrote:Meh, well the Wolves still use the Legion's Organization system, not the Codex astartes one, so there is no problem in sayin' "look this 100 Wolves did this and that, kill that and this etcetera etcetera etcetera".
And, plus: the Canis Helix have the 85% of probability to bring flaws in a successor chapter, not the 100%.
So you *could* make a Successor Chapter.

WTF?

The lack of SW Successors has never been about their beef with the =I=, that is relatively recent history in the Imperium, compared to 10,000 years since the Second Founding. The Canis Helix has always been the cause for attempts at creating a Successor Chapter to go horribly, horribly awry.

Here's the bit on the one-and-only try at creating a SW Successor:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Wolf_Brothers#.UWYHZEqRcpo