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Let's say you take the Cmd&Control Node. Is it really better MathHammer to have one dude quiet while the others get to reroll s?

My MH isn't great. I remember poster Cottonjaw was good at this (I'll PM him).

Which XV8 loadout is the C&CN actually worth taking?

Within double tap range, 3 FireKnives without C&CN:
6 PR shots & 6 MPs. 6 of those hit, given BS3, with two s, presumably.

3 FireKnives with C&CN:
4 PR shots & 4 MPs while one dude chills. There will be 4 hits, given BS3. Let's say two of those dice are s. Reroll both and you get another hit. That's 5 hits.

Maybe with FireStorms?

Is the real application of the C&CN attaching to a full FW crew?

Just making sure you know the node allows you to reroll all failed shots, not just failures on a 1 right?

So when is it worth it? Sadly its not worth it in a 3 man team. Back when we had missile drones with crisis suits I did all the math hammer and it was worth it but now it is not.

So is this dead wargear? Maybe not.. As you add more units to your group it gets better and better. If you have a commander in your group then it is better but still not great. If you are in a farsight group with 7 body guards then it is actually pretty good. Paired with a muti-spectrum suit a group, the 7 other suits in the group can do a ton of damage thanks to rerolling.

So don't use it in a group of 3 use it in a group of 8.

Worth it immensely if you pair the thing with a drone controller and a squad of drones of any flavor.

The larger the group gets the better it gets points-> results wise, however that would suggest the best way to do things would be to take the suit as cheap as possible which might suggest taking flamers, which would be very useful if that unit gets charged to possibly break the enemie's charge on that expensive of a unit

Combine it with ignores cover and donkey punch for a support commander in a Farsight bomb.

Take your 3 man Fireknife squad and then attach a Commander with no bodyguards to it. If you are playing in a high enough points range to be willing to pay for it then you can most likely afford a second Commander, making it a 4 man Fireknife Squad plus the support guy. Single fix the PR and MPs and put Advanced Targeting Systems in place.

End up with

4 Plasma Rifles
4 Misslie Pods
1 Plasma and Missile hits on a 2+ and precision shots on a 5+
3 Plasma and Missile hits on a 4+ and precision shots on 6s
Everyone fires as twin linked and ignores cover.

I have no idea how to mathhammer that out..

*All* failed to hits. Right, thanks lambsandlions. I confused it with the stupid WarLord trait #2 (one use! ).

Within double tap range, 3 FireKnives withOUT C&CN:
6 PR shots & 6 MPs. 6 of those hit, given BS3, with 4 misses Result: 6 hits

3 FireKnives with C&CN:
4 PR shots & 4 MPs while one dude chills. There will be 4 hits, given BS3. Reroll the 4 misses for 2 more hits. Result: 6 hits

Maybe with FireStorms?

WithOUT C&CN: 4 BC & 2 MP times 3 Crisis Suits is 9 hits.
With C&CN: 4 BC & 2 MP times 2 Crisis Suits is 6 hits. Reroll those 6 misses for (presumeably) 3 more hits, giving ... 9 hits.

WTFrak?

Maybe it's mathematically meant to MathHammer back to that, regardless. Perhaps the C&CN simple kicks in best when your dice ignore MathHammer and you get a royally crappy throw of ones, twos and threes.

Huh.

davou wrote:orth it immensely if you pair the thing with a drone controller and a squad of drones of any flavor.

GDs are already Twin-Linked, but definitely would have been spectaclar if Missile Ds were available as a squadron.

A full dozen Missile Drones with an Elite XV8:
WithOUT C&CN - at BS 3, 12 hits
With C&CN - at BS3, 12 hits, plus the likely 6 more, to great effect.

If it is held by a HQ Crisis Suit with a Drone Controller, it just gets nuts:
24 shots at BS 5 has 4 misses. after the C&CN, it's 22 hits.

That's a sick amount of STR7.
Too bad, that's just an errata away from being royally broken.

Thanks so far guys, but let's keep it going! Smarter mathematicians?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Let's try a Farsight posse:

WithOUT C&CN:
7 FKs - 2 PR, 2 MP, 28 rolls, 14 hits, and Farsight's 2 PR shots.

With C&CN:
6 guys plus Farsight, because another is holding the C&CN. We'll assume he misses one. So, 12 hits. Reroll the missed shots, and you get 6 more hits, maybe 7 if Farsight missed, and now we've crested at 18 or 19 total.

It does take a big crew, huh.

I'm reasonably good at maths, let's give it a try:

Let's assume that the squads are of 3 normal BS3 'ui with a 'vre holding the node. Let's also assume that the 'vre would have the same equipment as the 'uis for now.

Well, it looks rather simple to me.
Using the node, there's 2 guys missing with half their shots, whatever their weaponry. So that's 2 times a half of the number of shots each can fire, which on average equals (drum roll)... the same amount of shots as the 'ui would fire normally!
For example, say they've got burst cannons. Normally, you get 9 I do know the new rules, honest! 12 shots total. Using the node, you've got 8 shots, on average 4 hits and 4 misses. Those 4 misses are re-rolled, providing you effectively with the 4 shots that the 'ui would have had!
For 15 points, you're making your shooting more reliable, and more likely to be average. For example, with the burst cannons you've now got a maximum of 8 kills rather than 12, but if your first shots all end up as 1s you've got 8 re-rolls rather than your normal 4! While I quite like predictable shooting, it's not really worth 15 points IMHO.

If you have more things in the unit, for example drones, then it becomes better. After all, those 3 XV8s cancel out (sort of), leaving your with free re-rolls. Also, the lower the BS, the bigger the difference as the more re-rolls you'll get. On the other hand, if one of your 'uis gets shot down, you've suddenly got a piece of equipment that's of node use to you. (Yes, my jokes are just that aweful).

As for points, if you decide you're going to use the node the entire time then you don't have to equip that 'vre with anything else, meaning you've saved yourself 30 points (probably). Which would mean that it's a 15 point saving including the node, but then you also had to make him a 'vre in the first place, meaning you've just got 5 points, +1 ld and +1 attack (really useful!) in exchange for a lack of predictability, which can be extremely useful at times. It also means that if one guy in your squad is downed, you've got a far worse team than otherwise.

So overall, great with farsight, if you've got a whole load of missile drones and a spare 15 points then you could spend it here (though probably not a great idea) and otherwise... really, just don't bother.

I like it on a support commander attached to missilesides. If you are using them for anti air purposes those rerolls are incredibly valuable and with the unit having 36 after the drones fire the C&C is invaluable. Also its not like you are wasting his shots just don't give him a weapon. Give him the gauntlet to protect the squad.

valace2 wrote:
I like it on a support commander attached to missilesides. If you are using them for anti air purposes those rerolls are incredibly valuable and with the unit having 36 after the drones fire the C&C is invaluable. Also its not like you are wasting his shots just don't give him a weapon. Give him the gauntlet to protect the squad.

Broadsides with missiles? They're already twin-linked, aren't they?

I think the kicker is that is pairs with the other bit of equipment (name escapes me) that denies cover save for the same cost. So even on a three man team, you get 2 shooters that re-roll AND ignore cover. Now, I would really only put this on a 3 man team that I intended to run with a Commander (or Farsight's unit, of course), but there is some added value even on a three man team.

True, though for 20 points it's not exactly cheap, nor can it be used in all situations. You're looking at spending 45 points to upgrade a normal 'ui into a 'vre that just sits there helping the others, and with most cover being 5+ nowadays anyway...

 p_gray99 wrote:

valace2 wrote:
I like it on a support commander attached to missilesides. If you are using them for anti air purposes those rerolls are incredibly valuable and with the unit having 36 after the drones fire the C&C is invaluable. Also its not like you are wasting his shots just don't give him a weapon. Give him the gauntlet to protect the squad.

Broadsides with missiles? They're already twin-linked, aren't they?

Nope the only thing twin-linked is the heavy rail rifle, and you replace that with the awesome high yield missile pod.

valace2 wrote:

 p_gray99 wrote:

valace2 wrote:
I like it on a support commander attached to missilesides. If you are using them for anti air purposes those rerolls are incredibly valuable and with the unit having 36 after the drones fire the C&C is invaluable. Also its not like you are wasting his shots just don't give him a weapon. Give him the gauntlet to protect the squad.

Broadsides with missiles? They're already twin-linked, aren't they?

Nope the only thing twin-linked is the heavy rail rifle, and you replace that with the awesome high yield missile pod.

Both Smart Missile Systems and High yield missile pods are twin-linked for broadsides.

 McNinja wrote:

valace2 wrote:
Nope the only thing twin-linked is the heavy rail rifle, and you replace that with the awesome high yield missile pod.

Both Smart Missile Systems and High yield missile pods are twin-linked for broadsides.

Thought so.

Codex:
Any broadside shas'ui or shas'vre may exchange his twin-linked heavy rail rifle for a twin-linked high-yield missile pod

 McNinja wrote:

valace2 wrote:

 p_gray99 wrote:

valace2 wrote:
I like it on a support commander attached to missilesides. If you are using them for anti air purposes those rerolls are incredibly valuable and with the unit having 36 after the drones fire the C&C is invaluable. Also its not like you are wasting his shots just don't give him a weapon. Give him the gauntlet to protect the squad.

Broadsides with missiles? They're already twin-linked, aren't they?

Nope the only thing twin-linked is the heavy rail rifle, and you replace that with the awesome high yield missile pod.

Both Smart Missile Systems and High yield missile pods are twin-linked for broadsides.

ok nevermind i just need to learn how to read :(