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More like a couple questions actually.

1. Do you get a deny the witch roll against force weapons? and if so
2. Does it just take away the instant death rule or completely nullify the weapon?
3. How does deny the witch work with area affect powers such as sanctuary. It states all enemy units that attempt to charge a unit within 12" of the psycher treat open ground as difficult terrain. Do those units get a deny the witch roll?

Thanks in advance guys


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok ignore questions 1 and 2 I just found it.... 3 still is unclear to me tho

1). No, force does not target an enemy unit, it enhances the weapon.
2). See above.
3). As above, the power does not target an enemy.

but doesnt activating a force weapon make it a psychic attack?

I mean saying it doesnt target anyone is rubbush because it already targeted an enemy model for one...

For example: Even kharne gets deny the witch agaisnt force weapons which would imply that force weapon attacks are targeting a unit/model and therefore can resist it

Re: Force weapons, the Force USR actually says you can't Deny the Witch (p37)

Khärn does NOT get a Deny the Witch against force weapons. Might want to check his rule again.

And the attack is made with the Force Weapon, not the Force Psychic Power. Force simply gives the weapon Instant Death, it at no point is any form of attack.

Re: AoE effects, a unit can Deny the Witch only if they were the target of the psychic power (p68). Even if you have something like a Blast witchfire power, only the targetted unit gets to DtW, even if other units are hit by the Blast.

This issue came up a couple of weeks back and I didn't believe it at first, but RAW that's the truth :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, this is weird, you're Blast witchfire scatters, completely missing your target, and happens to hit a unit with a couple of attached psykers - only the target can DtW, not the unit with the psykers, who have a much better chance to make the roll

PS. Juggalo17, sorry for taking this away from your question about AoE and on to Blast - you question just got me thinking...

yeah it did lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and he does get a 2+ save against it

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
and he does get a 2+ save against it

Are you refering to Khärn and Force weapons here?

Force explicitly ay you can't DtW, which is slightly redundant as the Power doesn't target the victims anyway.

Just like you can't DtW the enemy buffing himself.

Activating a Force Weapon is no different from casting +1Str for example. He's giving himself +1str, he's giving his weapon the Instant Death specual rule.

 grendel083 wrote:

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
and he does get a 2+ save against it

Are you refering to Khärn and Force weapons here?

yes

 WarlordRob117 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
and he does get a 2+ save against it

Are you refering to Khärn and Force weapons here?

yes

Kharn does not get a DtW against force weapons. He treats them as power weapons. There is a difference there.

 WarlordRob117 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
and he does get a 2+ save against it

Are you refering to Khärn and Force weapons here?

yes

Khärn's rule is two parts.
1). He gets 2+ DtW rolls,
2). He ignores Instant Death from Force Weapons.

Note that he does not get a DtW against Force weapons (he's immune to them anyway, so it doesn't matter much).

Wait so if only the target of the psychic power gets a deny roll then if I target a unit and it scatters on to another unit there is no deny roll made by the enemy?

 Mythra wrote:
Wait so if only the target of the psychic power gets a deny roll then if I target a unit and it scatters on to another unit there is no deny roll made by the enemy?

No, the enemy unit targeted will make the DtW roll before you scatter.

The order is this,

1) Declare Target

2) take psychic test

3) target may may DtW roll

4) if DtW failed, resolve the power.

The DtW roll nullifies the power's effect on that unit (per the DtW rules). Why would you not roll for scatter anyway to see if the power effects someone else?

rigeld2 wrote:
The DtW roll nullifies the power's effect on that unit (per the DtW rules). Why would you not roll for scatter anyway to see if the power effects someone else?

The DtW stops the entire power, not just the effect on that unit.

Take Jaws. DtW is made only by the target(first unit hit) and if passed nobody gets effected. if failed everybody gets effected.

So Doom's Cataclysm power - since the D3 wounds he loses are not lost until after the power has been used, he wouldn't lose any?

DtW doesn't nullify the power.

Page 68 wrote:If the roll is a 6, then the psychic power's effect on that unit is nullified - on any other result, the power is resolved on that unit as normal.

Emphasis mine.

Don't have the codex here at work but I thought the Doom losing the wounds was one of the last things that happened so I would think he doesn't lose them.

I never take Cataclysm anymore tho. I'd rather Shriek or a biomancy roll. I mean get Iron arm on Doom and it most likely a game. At worst you get Smite.

I always hate losing those wounds.

With life leech wouldn't get 2 wounds for each 1 caused?

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Mythra wrote:
Wait so if only the target of the psychic power gets a deny roll then if I target a unit and it scatters on to another unit there is no deny roll made by the enemy?

No, the enemy unit targeted will make the DtW roll before you scatter.

The order is this,

1) Declare Target

2) take psychic test

3) target may may DtW roll

4) if DtW failed, resolve the power.

Quite right. I wasn't didn't properly consult the BRB when I mentioned the scattering of a Blast attack.

rigeld2 wrote:

Page 68 wrote:If the roll is a 6, then the psychic power's effect on that unit is nullified - on any other result, the power is resolved on that unit as normal.

Emphasis mine.

Per this wording, it would indicate that in the uncommon situation of a scattering psychic power that scattered onto a unit other than the one targeted, the second unit would be hit regardless of whether or not the DtW roll was passed or not. The FAQ already indicates that only the initial target gets to roll for DtW as well.

Good catch. This makes scattering psychic powers a bit more attractive unless they FAQ this.

The only question is, if the target succeeds on their DTW roll, do you have permission to target them with the blast still? I would think the targeting of the blast is part of the psychic powers effect and the unit is now immune to the powers effects making targeting a model in that unit illegal. In that case if you cannot place the initial large blast maker, you cannot roll for scatter.

How is targeting them an effect?

I'm truly curious about your reasoning.

rigeld2 wrote:
How is targeting them an effect?

I'm truly curious about your reasoning.

Just putting a thought out there, not stamping it as 'correct'. More or less exploring a line of thought. TBH I want to agree with you fully and would like the idea completely crushed as I use the DoM sometimes but for honesty's sake I ask.

You are permitted to target the model with the large blast marker as an effect of the power are you not?

If so

Are you permitted to place the blast marker on a model in a unit that cancels all effects of the power on themselves?

p67, step 2, you declare your target. At step 4, if the target unit makes DtW, the psychic attack failed - there is nothing more to do.

If DtW failed, resolve the power. In the case of a Blast, treat it just like a shooting attack - place the marker, roll scatter, etc, etc.

Snapshot wrote:
p67, step 2, you declare your target. At step 4, if the target unit makes DtW, the psychic attack failed - there is nothing more to do.

If DtW failed, resolve the power. In the case of a Blast, treat it just like a shooting attack - place the marker, roll scatter, etc, etc.

I just looked at this. It appears to have conflicting verbage just paragraphs away from one another. If I had to guess, I'd say that the RAI is that the power is completely nullified. I believe this may be supported by a FAQ regarding beam powers, which states that only the first model hit by said beam power may DtW, but if it is passed, no one is struck by the beam.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Snapshot wrote:
p67, step 2, you declare your target. At step 4, if the target unit makes DtW, the psychic attack failed - there is nothing more to do.

If DtW failed, resolve the power. In the case of a Blast, treat it just like a shooting attack - place the marker, roll scatter, etc, etc.

I just looked at this. It appears to have conflicting verbage just paragraphs away from one another. If I had to guess, I'd say that the RAI is that the power is completely nullified. I believe this may be supported by a FAQ regarding beam powers, which states that only the first model hit by said beam power may DtW, but if it is passed, no one is struck by the beam.

I suspect you are correct on RAI

As far as RAW it's either:

Placing the blast marker on the target model is an effect of the power and is canceled by the model since it's unit made their DTW roll.

or

Placing the blast marker is not itself an effect on the unit and effects are only determined after scatter is rolled and hits start getting applied.

I'm unsure which is correct but I hope rigeld2 is right.

I don't believe placing a blast marker is a effect. The blast marker is just the To Hit mechanic for that psychic power; if the power is nullified, don't proceed to work out hits.

I really loath how GW worded the entire psychic section in regards to Deny the Witch rules. You have to be targeted by the psyker, and nova and maelstrom powers automatically target any enemy in range, but if a unit is accidentally hit by a power (beam and stray blasts, and I suppose templates that go stretch far enough or hit a mass with mixed units) don't get a chance to resist the power, because they are not considered targeted. Why a unit that wasn't "targeted" has no chance to resist a psychic attack, but one on which the psyker was directing his full attention to does, is beyond me, and in my opinion, idiotic. Has absolutely no internal logical consistency which makes remembering the rules for everything in a game a nightmare.

By the RAW that seems to be how it works. RAI? No clue because there is no logic behind the rules. Looks like a monkey threw darts at a board. At least the FAQ about beam powers and deny the witch cleared up GW's intentions about making sense.

Snapshot wrote:
I don't believe placing a blast marker is a effect. The blast marker is just the To Hit mechanic for that psychic power; if the power is nullified, don't proceed to work out hits.

Where is the line drawn then? Arguably, hits are just part of the mechanic as well. They must be rolled into wounds then pass possible saves becoming an unsaved wound. An unsaved wound is just a mechanic that removes wounds from models, etc. Which mechanic would you say is not an effect of the power and why? Are they all? The possible argument being that all the mechanics involved with using this psychic ability are effects of the power, therefore any of those that would interact with the unit who made their DTW roll are canceled leaving you no target for the blast.

I see where your coming from and believe it is the common reading that when they say "the psychic power's effect on that unit is nullified" they only mean 'the psychic power's effects that would change the state of the unit are nullified'. While it can be taken that way that is not exactly what they say. They say "the psychic powers effect" which could also be taken as the entire process instead of just the end changes that would result. If the whole thing is "the psychic powers effect" then it would invalidate the target for the blast.