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Oh i'm sorry suffering from selective memory are we. Disraeli(7/10), Gladstone(7/10), Churchill (0/10) he was only a good war leader, he was not a good prim minister he was also a massive opportunist, he changed from the Cons to the Liberals during the reforms to gain him votes then went back to the Cons when it suited him.
Thatcher (-10/10)
Selective? Perhaps I wasn't clear enough.
I personally am not too keen on Churchill myself, but as a historian, I can emphatically state they those three, plus Thatcher, are generally regarded by historians as 'Great' Prime Ministers, whilst the likes of say, Eden or Major, tend to be forgotten. Usually for their force of will, and the impact they had on Britain (good or bad).
As for your views onw hether or not he was a good Prime Minister, well. Once you've had the pleasure of digging through the Churchill archive at Churchill College, Cambridge, reading stuff by his own hand, and dealing with the annoying fiddly yellow paper cataloguing system, I might be inclined to listen to you on this one.
May i ask how you measure "greatness" surely it is from the persons point of view, not from the history records point of view.
For example i think that Blair was a "Great" Prim Minister, although he did illegally invade Iraq thus most people don't like him.
However i do not believe that Thatcher was "Great" however some people do it's all point of view with no correct side.
"They can't say no when they are stunned "- Taric
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May i ask how you measure "greatness" surely it is from the persons point of view, not from the history records point of view.
Like with morality, you have the personal view of something, and then you have the greater collective cultural view of something. Whilst that collective view is primarily dictated initially by the majority viewpoint of people of the time, you tend to find that the further from an event you get, the more the collective view is influenced by writers of history.
For example i think that Blair was a "Great" Prim Minister, although he did illegally invade Iraq thus most people don't like him.
However i do not believe that Thatcher was "Great" however some people do it's all point of view with no correct side.
I would disagree quite heavily on Blair. As someone who is inclined towards socialism, I think the man did incredible harm to the fabric of our society, and was nothing more than a conman. I could elaborate in the form of a lengthy essay, but I'm not sure if this is the time or place. Interestingly though, with the reformations Thatcher initiated, one could argue she was responsible for the evolution of Labour, and thus, the formation of glitzy substanceless 'New Labour'.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/08 15:23:12
This thread was never going to go well, such divided views on the woman's political actions have sparked various debates all over the internet.
It's not right to celebrate a persons passing, which many are doing, within moments of me hearing the news I received a Facebook invite to a party celebrating her passing. Such things are wrong. But being from the North East (parents from Newcastle, me from York, my wife from Middlesbrough) The strong views against her are hard to ignore.
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Albatross wrote: Wait, the SAS went out of their way to kill terrorists?! Say it ain't so...
Yeah... confused on that on too...
o.O
They went out of their way to kill terrorists that had surrendered. That's my point. You don't shoot people that are clearly not a threat. That's why one of the terrorists is imprisoned now instead of dead, because one of the SAS had the sense to counterman her edict and save some face. Don't argue that shooting people that have surrendered and have been shown on national television is in any way a good idea. =P
Anyhow. Her death's going to be stirring up a lot of old sentiments with the Scots I suspect. With the independence issue right now its only going to be fueling nationalism. If its the case where people outside of the country are saying how great she was, but the Scots are reflecting on her differently its only going to fuel the independence movement more.
I'll try and be as fair as possible when it comes to this subject, as earlier posters are right to say that we shouldn't be gloating over an old woman's death, but, and it's a big BUTT...
As somebody who grew up when she was PM, I can remember vividly the: harsh treatment of miners during the strikes (including deployment of the security services to spy on them) the police brutality and racism in the inner cities, the fire sale of Britain's utilities, the notorious poll tax, the myth she stood up for Britain's interests in Europe, and of course a legacy of TINA (there is no alternative but the free market) that continues to pervade British politics to this day.
Sure, she stood up for the Falklands, but that's the least you would expect from a British PM. Still, on the positive side, she did handbag Reagan over the Grenada invasion!
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
May i ask how you measure "greatness" surely it is from the persons point of view, not from the history records point of view.
Like with morality, you have the personal view of something, and then you have the greater collective cultural view of something. Whilst that collective view is primarily dictated initially by the majority viewpoint of people of the time, you tend to find that the further from an event you get, the more the collective view is influenced by writers of history.
For example i think that Blair was a "Great" Prim Minister, although he did illegally invade Iraq thus most people don't like him.
However i do not believe that Thatcher was "Great" however some people do it's all point of view with no correct side.
I would disagree quite heavily on Blair. As someone who is inclined towards socialism, I think the man did incredible harm to the fabric of our society, and was nothing more than a conman. I could elaborate in the form of a lengthy essay, but I'm not sure if this is the time or place. Interestingly though, with the reformations Thatcher initiated, one could argue she was responsible for the evolution of Labour, and thus, the formation of glitzy substanceless 'New Labour'.
If you want to know were i stand on the political spectrum then just go to the "communism" thread on off-topic and have a look, as for Blair he overseen one of the biggest increases in our economy, luck or skill i don't know. As for "new labour" historically when labour has gone left (in recent times) it has lost votes so they needed to become more central in order to win elections. Although i do dislike "new-labour", i liked "labour"
"They can't say no when they are stunned "- Taric
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Personaly I think she will be seen in a better light as time goes on. I can understand why some people hate her. I come from "Up north" and my father in law was a miner. Her name cannot be spoken in his house.
However much of the hate is down to the way she treated unions and industry. It has to be rememberd that unions tried to hold the country to ransom, as they had done in 1972 & 74, leaving the country with 3 day weeks and power cuts. There was a real fear that there would be a genral strike. The unions had gained far too much power and become very militant. British production had sufferd due to this. Look at British Layland & British Rail. We made crap and were able to keep doing so because the govenment propped up loss makeing industry that was stuck in the past. Something had to be done and was. She may have been harsh, but IMO it was needed because it had been aloud to spread for too long.
As people like my father in law die and the anger subsides I think we will see her as a reformer. I also don't buy that much of the anger is anything but a vocal minoraty. Dispite being a politicly motivated and active group the unions didn't manage to shift her from office. What did it for the conservatives was the complete lack of charisma of John Major and the scandel and muck that they had got mired in. In the face of New Labour with all the charisma, charm and promise of change they didn't stand a chance.
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
If you want to know were i stand on the political spectrum then just go to the "communism" thread on off-topic and have a look, as for Blair he overseen one of the biggest increases in our economy, luck or skill i don't know. As for "new labour" historically when labour has gone left (in recent times) it has lost votes so they needed to become more central in order to win elections. Although i do dislike "new-labour", i liked "labour"
Unfortunately, Blair was not responsible for the economic upturn. Under Thatcher and Major prior to Blair, the books had been squared. Whilst the country had been forced into tremendous economic depression, the withdrawal of state funding from unsustainable industries, privatisations, and suchlike, meant that the Government was finally bringing in more money then it was spending, and as a result, did not have to borrow large sums of money every year.
Under Brown and Blair, this was completely reversed. They inherited a balanced bank account, with an economy that was just beginning on the 'boom' of the boom/bust cycle, and squandered it away. They borrowed vast sums of money, and wasted it. Brown even sold off the gold reserves, claiming he had eliminated boom and bust. Eventually they were raiding the pensions, and taking out loans with extortionate interest rates, to begin to be repaid in several years time, just to maintain the status quo.
Our deficit is currently so high thanks to the economic carelessness of New Labour. A party that divulged itself of its socialist roots to become an even more corrupt clone of the Conservative party. That shut down the grammar schools, continued with privatisation, and has done more to widen the gap between the rich and the poor in this country than any other in living memory.
New Labour are a joke. They're just smoke and mirrors, there's absolutely no substance to them. They were all about spin doctors, and maintaining themselves in power for power's sake.
I genuinely wish it was different, as someone with a socialist leaning. I wish there was someone in the Labour party who still had ideas, who still had integrity. Instead, the Labour Party has evolved into a internally stalinistic crowd of 'professional' politicians all out for a quick buck, and no serious proposals on anything. Their entire manifesto is just basically taking the Tory one and writing, 'Nuh-uh!' next to each of the points.
The Tories are barely any better, but I can count one or two heads in there at least who actually seem to have some ideas and personality. New Labour is down to Ed Milliband and Ed Balls, and that's such a sorry lineup that it just makes me feel sad that the Labour party has fallen to such lows.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/08 16:01:35
I’m not really sure why some people seem so nostalgic over the mines. Can anyone here seriously say they would want to work in a mine, or have a loved one work in mine? Its backbreaking and will destroy your lungs far more efficiently than an 80 a day habit. Not to mention that coal pumps huge amounts of crap into the air.
Obviously losing your livelihood is traumatic, but really we be saying good riddance to this polluting industry that killed its employees in record numbers.
Not having a plan regarding what to do with all the ex-miners was a genuine error on Thatcher’s part, but the actual closing of mines wasn’t.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/08 16:05:35
"And if we've learnt anything over the past 1000 mile retreat it's that Russian agriculture is in dire need of mechanisation!"
Steve steveson wrote: What did it for the conservatives was the complete lack of charisma of John Major and the scandel and muck that they had got mired in. In the face of New Labour with all the charisma, charm and promise of change they didn't stand a chance.
The more time passes the more I think Major was a far better PM than people gave him credit for. He wasn’t a full on Thatcherite so was never embraced by that wing of the party, but on the whole his economic policies where sound and in 1997 the British economy was in quite a healthy state. Failing to intervene after Black Wednesday probably finished Major off.
"And if we've learnt anything over the past 1000 mile retreat it's that Russian agriculture is in dire need of mechanisation!"
Oh I don't disagree with you on his ability a as a PM. His lack of charisma, however, was a problem in that he was an easy target for jokes and lacked the ability to recover from problems like black Wednesday and sleaze due to it. Unfortunately in politics gloss and show win over actual ability time and again.
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
finally, the embassy situation with the S.A.S was a complete and utter fiasco.
Could you explain why you think this was a fiasco please?
Perhaps her saying that none of the terrorists should make it out alive. The SAS killed terrorists who has disarmed themselves and surrendered on her orders. One SAS operative was about to take a terrorist back into the building after he had been capture and shown on television to kill him. He was stopped however by another operative because it wasn't humane.
I'm not seeing the problem here. Admittedly taking them out inquisition style would be preferred, but you can't have everything.
They went out of their way to kill terrorists that had surrendered. That's my point. You don't shoot people that are clearly not a threat.
Why?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/08 16:59:01
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Doesn't matter if you agree with her policies or not, immediately after announcement of her death is a poor time to gloat and shows more of your own character than it does of hers. Time and a place for everything.
Saying that, did you know that prior to becoming prime minister, she was a food scientist. And its thanks to her that we have mr whippy/soft scoop ice cream.
That's right maggie invented the 99 cone as we know it.
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They went out of their way to kill terrorists that had surrendered. That's my point. You don't shoot people that are clearly not a threat.
Why?
Uh, excuse me? I may not be understanding your point here, but are you honestly advocating the killing of people that have surrendered? That kind of thing's way outside the decorum that a soldier should follow and would get them and the people that told them to do it into serious trouble. In this case it didn't oddly because it was showing that Britain was still powerful and all that.
It hasn't been proven conclusively that such events happened because Maggie went out of her way to not point blank say that she wanted them all killed. The SAS involved clearly knew that's what she meant when she said that none of them should leave the building... I'll Godwin's law it again by noting that the upper echelon of the Nazi party did their best to never get their names written down on anything surrounding the holocaust for the most part. =P
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/08 17:41:39
They went out of their way to kill terrorists that had surrendered. That's my point. You don't shoot people that are clearly not a threat.
Why?
Uh, excuse me? I may not be understanding your point here, but are you honestly advocating the killing of people that have surrendered?
No of course not. I'm advocating the wacking of terrorists that have surrendered, preferably in ways that would make a bily goat puke.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
finally, the embassy situation with the S.A.S was a complete and utter fiasco.
Could you explain why you think this was a fiasco please?
Perhaps her saying that none of the terrorists should make it out alive. The SAS killed terrorists who has disarmed themselves and surrendered on her orders. One SAS operative was about to take a terrorist back into the building after he had been capture and shown on television to kill him. He was stopped however by another operative because it wasn't humane.
I'm not seeing the problem here. Admittedly taking them out inquisition style would be preferred, but you can't have everything.
They went out of their way to kill terrorists that had surrendered. That's my point. You don't shoot people that are clearly not a threat.
Why?
I was around at the time of the siege and watched the denouement on TV. There was a widespread feeling that the SAS had given the terrorists what they deserved.
Indeed I have sitting on my table the Airfis 1/32 scale SAS soldiers they released after this affair.
Probably help if I knew what siege you were talking about.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Automatically Appended Next Post: While we are considering the actions of the SAS, let's bear in mind that the terrorists had shot three hostages and threatened to shoot another one every half hour.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/08 18:51:42
I don't know much about her politics (something about milk snatching?) but did you guys know she helped to invent soft-serve ice cream? That alone should redeem her.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Albatross wrote: Wait, the SAS went out of their way to kill terrorists?! Say it ain't so...
Yeah... confused on that on too...
o.O
It's the SAS, you don't call a guy who washes cars to fix them, and you don't call the SAS to extend the international hand of good will and friendship. They're some of the best at what they do in the world if not the best, and what they happen to do boils down to breaking things and killing people.
Any way, respects to the Baroness for her long career of service, I'm sure the Argentinians breathed a collective sigh of relief today.
I doubt it, now the Argentinians have to worry about Zombie Thatcher. As oceans don't stop zombies she could crawl ashore any minute. Its best they evacuate Buenos Ares now just to be safe.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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1500pts (10/0/0)
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