how will the 13th black crusade end in your opinion!?

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**mrrotter**

i'm lookin for a awesome debate and i think this will get some good comments. 3...2...1 GO!

**MarsNZ**

Not really sure if there's much to debate. At best Chaos can expect to hold onto some minor gains before the inevitable Imperial victory, I mean, the alternative is to essentially wipe or at least 'Chaosify' Cadia... Just the thought of such lost revenue probably makes the brass over at GW break out in hives.

Edit: also Imperial victory maintains the status quo, which basically guarantees it.

**mrrotter**

but when you think about it, the only forces able to fully fledge there whole forces to beat back the chaos attack is the cadian gate and the grey knights. but if almost all the chaos warbands join together and they cant stop them then the other forces will have to risk major zenos threats or leave terra open to a ultimate last stand...

**Selym**

I would go ahead and say that Abaddon will eventually get chaos' gak together, spearhead an assault towards Terra, open up a warpstorm of such gargantuan proportions that the Imperials cannot get their reinforcements through, and shove a butt load of traitors and daemons at Teh Emprah.

I predict that most of the IOM and traitor forces will die, but with chaos eventually victorious.

Ten thousand years down the line, chaos will reconquer the galaxy.

Just my prediction, don't take it too seriously.

**TechmarineNic**

It will basically the Horus story again but with Rawbutt Girlyman or the Lion if they revive... One titanic battle and the revived Primarcha will win and Abbadon will die.

**Asherian Command**

mrrotter wrote:
but when you think about it, the only forces able to fully fledge there whole forces to beat back the chaos attack is the cadian gate and the grey knights. but if almost all the chaos warbands join together and they cant stop them then the other forces will have to risk major zenos threats or leave terra open to a ultimate last stand...

Considering that the Chaos forces also have to worry about the reinforcements of the imperium... Including a Black Templar Fleet, The Entire Lion's Fleet, and another imperial naval fleet, and another eldar fleet and a necron fleet who really don't like chaos.... Doesn't look good for chaos.

**Iracundus**

The Eye of Terror campaign results are here, with an official GW declared Chaos victory:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/392010.page

Abaddon is shown in the Apocalypse rulebook as being in the Thesus sector with an operational Planet Killer. The Thesus sector was not in the Cadian Gate region of the campaign which means Abaddon has moved out of the Gate.

The 4th edition SM Codex had the Imperium stripping the border with the Tau in order to reinforce the Cadian Gate. This is then referenced in the last Tau Codex with the Tau taking advantage of weakened Imperial defenses to expand.

There isn't much to debate really as we already know a fair amount based off of these GW sources.

The 13th Black Crusade continues its drive towards Terra but is bogged down in ever increasing Imperial defenses as the Imperium strips borders to reinforce its core. Thus the two antagonists of Chaos and Imperium stalemate each other, though the Imperium buys this at the cost of sacrificing its borders.

The stripped defenses means other factions then can erode the Imperium faster than before. Individual Imperial worlds may also find themselves questioning the point of paying their tithes to the Imperium while being abandoned by Imperial forces, and end up either seceding or making their own arrangements with other factions to secure their own world's interests. The 13th Black Crusade's indirect effect of draining the Imperium's forces from elsewhere may be its greatest effect, and the resulting knock on effect of making Imperial worlds re-consider membership in the Imperium.

Picture yourself as an Imperial Commander. You've got a world to rule, tithes to raise, Imperial Guard regiments to recruit and the Inquisition and the Arbites are sniffing around for even the slightest hint that you're a traitor. Why would you bother with any of this if you believed that should your planet actually be attacked, the Imperium would just use you as bait-and-switch fodder? The Imperium is nothing if not a mutual-defence pact between a million human worlds. They make every effort to save other worlds in recognition that those same worlds will reciprocate one day if the worst happens. Destroy that, and you destroy the Imperium.

-Gavin Thorpe
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?32882-Odd-way-for-the-imperium-to-win-battles/page3

**Hlaine Larkin mk2**

where's the default stalemate option?

And why is Xenos spelt with a z?

**Soladrin**

Because X's are sooo 2012.

**2x210**

If they ever advance the plot and this is the biggest if that ever ifed.....

I can see Huron taking over from Abaddon who gets to become a daemon prince following the destruction of Cadia (I am assuming he figures out a way to allow the warp to escape and in doing so it ruins Cadia). Huron then becomes the new Warmaster and Abaddon goes into the warp to join the Daemon Primarchs.

Also I am under the impression Huron is actually a clone of Horus, my proof is nonexistent other than the fact their names are similar and they have similar weapons (Claws with guns in them). So it is basically a wild fan theory but it would be neat nonetheless

**Soladrin**

There already was a Horus clone, Abaddon killed it.

Huron being a Horus clone is... silly, to put it very modestly.

The guy is 9 parts machine these days anyway, so it wouldn't matter.

**2x210**

Soladrin wrote:
There already was a Horus clone, Abaddon killed it.

Huron being a Horus clone is... silly, to put it very modestly.

The guy is 9 parts machine these days anyway, so it wouldn't matter.

If there was one clone it stands to reason there could be more, besides is it any less silly than 20 genetically modified babies launched across the universe by 4 all powerful beings to screw with a man who is the collected essence of a bunch powerful wizards?

(I am not trying to argue my point I know it was silly just saying all of 40k is silly)

**Soladrin**

Still gonna reply.

Yes, it's silly in comparison to that, when we already know who and what Huron is.

You are aware that he's heavily featured in a novel right?

**Waaghboss Grobnub**

The 13th black crusade if it ever ends,.. will end with the retreat of Abbadon to come back for a 14th black crusade since otherwise the blance in power will be gone and Chaos will never be seen as a threat again (tabletop/codex wise)

IF one side realy wins all the way,.. it will be the imperium... why? Good guys are ment to win in so many of humanity's stories...

**2x210**

Soladrin wrote:
Still gonna reply.

Yes, it's silly in comparison to that, when we already know who and what Huron is. You are aware that he's heavily featured in a novel right?

I literally got back into the hobby 2 months ago and actually haven't caught up with the Black Library fluff, now knowing Huron is in one looks like I will be checking them out

And in that case I suppose Huron can't possibly a Horus clone, so .......

Cypher
Fallen Angel?

or

Horus Clone?

**Psienesis**

Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
The 13th black crusade if it ever ends,.. will end with the retreat of Abbadon to come back for a 14th black crusade since otherwise the blance in power will be gone and Chaos will never be seen as a threat again (tabletop/codex wise)

IF one side realy wins all the way,.. it will be the imperium... why? Good guys are ment to win in so many of humanity's stories...

You must be new. There are no "good guys" in 40K.

Personal Canon: Cadia falls. Creed and his surviving soldiers are evacuated from Cadia at the last moment by a Rogue Trader/Inquisitor/Ecclesiarchy ship while fighting a desperate last stand. Their primary goal accomplished, the various war-bands of Chaos splinter, disappearing into the Void, some withdrawing to the Eye, having gained whatever treasures they did from various Forces of Order armies/locations they've pillaged and destroyed. The Planet-Killer and the Blackstone Fortress vanish into the Eye of Terror as well. The Imperium now has to redistribute its depleted forces to not only hunt down the Chaos raiders now flying about the galaxy, but also to recapture lost territory (or re-establish a defensive perimeter around said territory) as well as defend against pre-existing threats.

Imperial propaganda will claim that the 13th Black Crusade ends in an Imperial victory, as the Despoiler was unable to reach Terra, though the senior leaders of the Munitorum, the Inquisition, and the High Lords know full well that this was never his goal, and that the loss of Cadia is a grievous one, indeed.

**Brother Captain Alexander**

The Chaos threw everything they had and only managed to win out an stalemate, and the Imperium main reinforcements had not yet arrived.

In the end it will be hard won Imperial victory, but the real question is will the Cadia be able to rebuild fast enough for the 14'th Black Crusade?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrrotter wrote:
but when you think about it, the only forces able to fully fledge there whole forces to beat back the chaos attack is the cadian gate and the grey knights. but if almost all the chaos warbands join together and they cant stop them then the other forces will have to risk major zenos threats or leave terra open to a ultimate last stand...

I am pretty sure that Imperium is willing to lose some territory to secure Caida again. Little planets in the Imperium are as important as Cadia is.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Iracundus wrote:
With an official GW declared Chaos victory:

Not a complete victory, Imperium still holds 1/4 of Caida, and Chaos Forces lack manpower to overrun them as well as naval support as Imperial Navy is in control of Cadia skies.
But to their credit they did managed to overrun much of Cadia and ravage the Cadian sector.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
Good guys are meant to win in so many of humanity's stories...

Imperium is Good Guy when you look from Humanity angle. If you look from overall universe perspective they are not so good.
It would be more appropriate if you said "Forces of Order are meant to win".

**1hadhq**

In 6th ed, CSM / crimson path, tells us Abby plans to turn worlds into demonic hellholes as stepping stones for his demonic allies.
Basically he still adheres to: "let the Galaxy burn" ...

How it ends? Its Ezekyle A., obviously hatred alone does not win wars. The Emperor however planned into the future.
multiple possible futures ahead:
- Abaddon may win here and there until the SoB get a new dex and their revenge ...
- GW put the Lion in his path, chaos gains another tactical retreat into the eye and is busy to find the next overall leader..
- Abaddon takes the direct route but crashes into nids , crons, orks etc so his black crusade runs out of members before he alone reaches Terra. All seems lost to him, but he is already invited to an Audience....
- an assasin swapped Abaddons maps and now hes going to meet many new '"friends" who don't want to have their planet turned into a demon-world. When 90% of the Galxay chase him ...

**Psienesis**

Imperium is Good Guy when you look from Humanity angle. If you look from overall universe perspective they are not so good.
It would be more appropriate if you said "Forces of Order are meant to win".

Then I, for one, welcome our new insectoid overlords.

**Arcsquad12**

The 13th Black Crusade will end the way all Black Crusades have ended; a massive stalemate with huge losses on both sides. All the while the conflict will continue to draw more and more soldiers into the meat grinder, causing more widespread desertion and rebellion among Imperial Worlds abandoned by the crusade.

And then enterprising and ambitious warriors like Eliphas the Inheritor or the Alpha Legion will continue their plans to usurp Abaddon's position. The Alpha Legion wished to supplant Abaddon with the Ascendant, while Eliphas curried favor with Nurgle and Khorne in his failed gambit in Aurelia.

**PunkNeverDie110**

Meh, I think the Imperium will win at the end.
Eh, they have dat tactical genius... Creed!

**Serevor**

The Chaos threw everything they had and only managed to win out an stalemate, and the Imperium main reinforcements had not yet arrived.

In the end it will be hard won Imperial victory, but the real question is will the Cadia be able to rebuild fast enough for the 14'th Black Crusade?

Assumptions on the Chaos forces. What we know for sure is that the imperium threw all it had in the fire and still lost. They don't have enough manpower left to keep fighting there. Otherwise, they wouldn't have stripped other crutial wazones from all their forces to try to counter Abaddon's crusade.
EDIT : the situation is pretty grim for the Imperium, in fact. The plague still runs like wildfire, there's a new Daemon World passed Cadia, the Warp Storm still rages on, there's a Leviathan of Tzeentch floating around and the Chaos reinforcements keep flowing as the Chaos codex says :
The imperial forces counter-attack, but there is no end to the forces of the Dark Gods.
EDIT2: And of course, the loss of all the Agripina's farm worlds drives the whole Cadian Gate to starvation. And The Orks are still in tip top shape.

Not a complete victory, Imperium still holds 1/4 of Caida, and Chaos Forces lack manpower to overrun them as well as naval support as Imperial Navy is in control of Cadia skies.

They lack manpower ? It's not really what is written. The Chaos forces on Cadia are pretty much supreme on the field of battle. They have orbital supremacy, they fortify themselves into underground hives and fortresses and can still summon daemons and reinforcements through the Warp.
Then, we know that all is left of the imperial forces is a single Kasr on a pole, without support, the IG suffered gruesome losses and doesn't have any tactical advantage left.
In the end, the Chaos forces just need to destroy the pylons, because that's why they're on Cadia, then the Eye swallows the Cadian Gate and it's pretty much instant win.

**Psienesis**

Creed's been getting his ass kicked on Cadia, though. Tactical Genius can only take you so far. When you've not the men or the tanks to offer a battle, outflanking 1000 guys into the side of a horde numbering in the millions doesn't get you much except 1000 dead guys in quick order.

The GW publication for the 13th Black Crusade even has a pretty good write-up for Creed losing Kasr Whats-Its-Nuts and then hopping aboard a transport and flying away.

**Xyrael**

..I miss Cypher and his mysterious crusade to bring that sword to the Emperor. Anyways... GW doesn't really care about good fluff; they dispose of it the moment they see an opportunity for sales. IoM are still better at sales than CSM and Daemons, and because of that taking over Cadia would probably result in fewer sales (esp. since the entire IG is essentially Cadians from a non-fluff perspective)

They probably will end up launching a Chaos (or maybe Tyranid) attack on Terra in the unforseeable future, just to draw in sales. I imagine any such worldwide campaign will coincide with a new SM codex which is filled with cheese and guarantees IoM victory. A worldwide campaign would be difficult, though, with GW's reduced staff in many areas though.

**Iracundus**

The only people that have ever been using the "stalemate" word are those players in denial that have been over the years trying to deny and spin doctor the Imperium's defeat in that campaign to a draw or worse to claim Imperial victory. GW has never used the stalemate word in its results report of the campaign, nor has that word been used in the BL book The 13th Black Crusade. The word "stalemate" or "draw" does not appear a single time in any of GW's 13th Black Crusade related publications. The results as declared by GW have been:

Victory for Chaos! Not a complete victory, the forces of Order have held the line in many places and Cadia itself still defies the Arch Warmaster Abaddon. But nonetheless over eight weeks the forces ot Disorder have consistently out-fought and out-manoeuvred their opponents across the warzones of the Eye of Terror.

WD 287, Death by a Thousand Cuts by Andy Chambers

From the GW campaign newsletter:

Final Newsletter

Cadia
The bleak moors of Cadia are reduced to a barren, crater-pocked wasteland, blasted by orbital torpedoes, super-heavy artillery and the footfall of titans. The Vilklas and Andur defence lines have collapsed under the relentless pressure of a million frenzied cultists, traitors and mutants, and the Cadian High Command has been forced to relocate to Kasr Gallan on the far side of the Caducades Sea. Though the Imperial Navy is in control of the inter-system space lanes, Chaos rules the skies above Cadia since the orbital defences fell in the opening days of the Black Crusade. The defenders of Cadia are now deployed around Kasr Gallan and throughout the Wastes, resolute that not a backward step shall be taken. The order is given- ‘stand at Cadia, or damn the Imperium of Mankind to the depredations of Chaos for all eternity’.

The space lanes
The Imperial Navy has fought with courage and vigour throughout the war, ruthlessly taking the battle to the enemy wherever it encountered them. Admiral Quarren has been hailed a true hero of the Imperium, for his masterful defence of the space lanes was all that stood between survival, and utter defeat for the Imperium. Though Cadia is besieged, the Imperial Navy commands space, and is able to offer support to beleaguered forces on the ground. The only question is whether the rapid redeployment of almost the entirety of Battle Fleet Gothic, along with a substantial proportion of Battle Fleet Solar will leave the Navy dangerously overstretched elsewhere and unable to maintain the level of operations required to hold the line at the Cadian Gate.

Chaos owns the skies above Cadia, not the Imperium. The Imperium's advantage in the deeper areas of space has come only with the reinforcements from elsewhere, reinforcements that cannot remain on station indefinitely without stripping other vital regions bare. Nor is it absolute advantage as shown by the following quote from the BL 13th Black Crusade book:

We are still attempting to piece together the details of the battle in orbit that saw the Blackstone defeated. Admiral Quarren reports that the bulk of his fleet is destroyed, many vessels having paid the ultimate price to ensure the Farseer of Ulthwe the time to complete his mission.

-p. 87, 13th Black Crusade

Admiral Quarren led the bulk of his fleet successfully elsewhere then massed it to fight and drive off the Blackstone Fortress, but lost the bulk of his fleet in the process. The Imperial Navy while having an overall advantage is not going to be some sort of magic "I win" trump card.

**Brother Captain Alexander**

Serevor wrote:

They lack manpower ? It's not really what is written. The Chaos forces on Cadia are pretty much supreme on the field of battle. They have orbital supremacy, they fortify themselves into underground hives and fortresses and can still summon daemons and reinforcements through the Warp.

False on all accounts:

-Imperials control space above Cadia which means that Chaos do not control the skies.
-They cannot summon daemons on Cadia because those Pylons do not allow any Warp rift being created on Cadia, they had to use ships to transport daemons to Cadia. ( those pylons are the only reason why Cadian Gate is so stable and why Cadia is still in real space and not in the eye itself ).
-Without control of space above the planet those troops that are on the ground are all that's left of the strike force. And if they try to strike at the last holding city Imperial Navy can bombard them fro morbit, not to mention that every reinforcement that Imperium receive get's to that Kasr.

In the end, the Chaos forces just need to destroy the pylons, because that's why they're on Cadia, then the Eye swallows the Cadian Gate and it's pretty much instant win.

You really think that Necrons will allow them that?
It has been in the previous fluff, I don't know if it was rewritten but when Chaos forces tried to destroy pylons Necron warriors phased in and defend them. Either way, I am pretty sure Necron too will interact if Chaos start demolishing their structures.

**Iracundus**

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

-Imperials control space above Cadia which means that Chaos do not control the skies.

...
It has been in the previous fluff, I don't know if it was rewritten but when Chaos forces tried to destroy pylons Necron warriors phased in and defend them. Either way, I am pretty sure Necron too will interact if Chaos start demolishing their structures.

You're the one that is mistaken and now outright making up stuff. The quote from GW clearly shows Chaos has local orbital superiority. The Imperium has overall deep space superiority, but that is not the same as a local orbital superiority over Cadia.

Also it has NEVER been in the fluff about Necrons fighting Chaos on Cadia. Produce a quote if you have proof, but I know you won't be able to because it doesn't exist. You are making it up out of thin air. I have quoted numerous sections direct from GW publications, all official, none made up.

From the GW campaign newsletter:

Final Newsletter

Cadia
The bleak moors of Cadia are reduced to a barren, crater-pocked wasteland, blasted by orbital torpedoes, super-heavy artillery and the footfall of titans. The Vilklas and Andur defence lines have collapsed under the relentless pressure of a million frenzied cultists, traitors and mutants, and the Cadian High Command has been forced to relocate to Kasr Gallan on the far side of the Caducades Sea. Though the Imperial Navy is in control of the inter-system space lanes, Chaos rules the skies above Cadia since the orbital defences fell in the opening days of the Black Crusade. The defenders of Cadia are now deployed around Kasr Gallan and throughout the Wastes, resolute that not a backward step shall be taken. The order is given- ‘stand at Cadia, or damn the Imperium of Mankind to the depredations of Chaos for all eternity’.

The space lanes
The Imperial Navy has fought with courage and vigour throughout the war, ruthlessly taking the battle to the enemy wherever it encountered them. Admiral Quarren has been hailed a true hero of the Imperium, for his masterful defence of the space lanes was all that stood between survival, and utter defeat for the Imperium. Though Cadia is besieged, the Imperial Navy commands space, and is able to offer support to beleaguered forces on the ground. The only question is whether the rapid redeployment of almost the entirety of Battle Fleet Gothic, along with a substantial proportion of Battle Fleet Solar will leave the Navy dangerously overstretched elsewhere and unable to maintain the level of operations required to hold the line at the Cadian Gate.

GW determines what happens in 40K, not you. GW said Chaos "rules the skies above Cadia".

**Brother Captain Alexander**

Iracundus wrote:

Though Cadia is besieged, the Imperial Navy commands space, and is able to offer support to beleaguered forces.

Chaos owns the skies above Cadia, not the Imperium.

I think that you have just contradict yourself. You say that Chaos rules the skies and yet you posted official report that said that Imperial Navy commands them.
I think in future I will trust more your official sources than your own posts.

**Iracundus**

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
Iracundus wrote:

Though Cadia is besieged, the Imperial Navy commands space, and is able to offer support to beleaguered forces.

Chaos owns the skies above Cadia, not the Imperium.

I think that you have just contradict yourself. You say that Chaos rules the skies and yet you posted official report that said that Imperial Navy commands them.
I think in future I will trust more your official sources than your own posts.

I didn't say Chaos ruled the skies. GW did. Do you find the concept of orbital vs. deep space control that hard to grasp? GW has said Chaos has local orbital superiority. GW has also said the Imperium has deep space superiority. The two are different things and NOT contradictory. Ships in 40K cannot jump deep in the gravity well of a system or a planet. They have to jump far out at the edge of a system. That is an entirely different area from local orbital space above a planet, and that area above Cadia is where Chaos has local superiority.

All of the quotes can be found by others that do a bit of searching, and all are from official GW statements. I back up with evidence, not making up stuff as I feel like it.

**Brother Captain Alexander**

Iracundus wrote:

I didn't say Chaos ruled the skies. GW did. Do you find the concept of orbital vs. deep space control that hard to grasp? GW has said Chaos has local orbital superiority. GW has also said the Imperium has deep space superiority. The two are different things and NOT contradictory.

GW said that Imperium rules the skies, you have just presented that quote yourself, only you have swapped Imperium for Chaos.
You contradicted yourself.