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 Celtic Strike wrote:

Same thing with Hurricane bolters.

What?

 Celtic Strike wrote:

Let's do some math. We won't factor in the cost of the Etheral and assume he is boosting both units.

9 Sniper Drones is 135 points, which gets you a Fireblade and 8.3 Fire Warriors, I'll even assume a bit of good luck and round it up to 9 for the test.

This test assumes you're firing at TEQ with no Markerlight assistance.

9 Fire Warriors w/ Fireblade at 15-30": 20 shots, 11.6 hits, 1.3 wounds after saves.

9 Fire Warriors w/ Fireblade & Ethereal up to 15": 40 shots, 21.3 hits, 2.4 wounds after saves.

9 Sniper Drones at 24-48": 9 shots, 7.5 hits, 1.6 wounds after saves.

9 Sniper Drones w/ Ethereal at up to 24": 27 shots, 22.5 hits, 5 wounds after saves.

I believe some of this is wrong:

9 Fire warriors with 3 shots: 27 Shots. X 0.5 (BS3) 13.5 hits. X 0.66 (S 5 Vs T 4) 8.91 Wounds. X 0.33 (3+ save) = 2.94
Fire blade with 3 shots: 3 shots. X 0.83 (BS5) 2.50 hits. X 0.66 (S 5 Vs T 4) 1.65 Wounds. X 0.33 (3+ Save) = 0.54

Squad total: 3.48 Dead marines

9 Fire warriors with 4 shots: 36 Shots. X0.5 (BS3) 18 Hits. X 0.66 (S 5 Vs T 4) 11.88 Wounds. X 0.33 (3+ save) = 3.92 Dead marines
1 Fire Blade 4 shots: 4 Shots X 0.83 (BS 5) 3.33 Hits. X 0.66 (S 5 Vs T 4) 2.20 Wounds. X 0.33 (3+ save) = 0.73 Dead Marines

Squad total = 4.65 Dead Marines. Not 2.4

I also feel 90% confident that Storm of Fire won't work for the pulse sniper.

Gophers original math is faulty.

First of all, 9 Sniper Drones is 148 points, not 135. Which, converted to Firewarriors, is either 16.44 or 9.77 plus a Cadre.

All values are versus T4

Sniper Drones (9) at 48" = 9*.833*.5 = 3.74 Wounds
Sniper Drones (9) w/o Ethereal at 24" = 9*2*.833*.5 = 7.5 Wounds
Sniper Drones (9) w/ Ethereal at 24" = 9*3*.833*.5 = 11.24 Wounds

Firewarriors (16.44) at 30" = 16.44*1*.5*.666 = 5.47 Wounds
Firewarriors (16.44) w/o Ethereal at 15" = 16.44*2*.5*.666 = 10.9 Wounds
Firewarriors (16.44) w/ Ethereal at 15" = 16.44*3*.5*.666 = 16.4 Wounds

Firewarriors (9.77) w/ Cadre at 30" = 9.77*2*.5*.666 = 6.5 Wounds
Firewarriors (9.77) w/ Cadre w/o Ethereal at 15" = 9.77*3*.5*.666 = 9.7 Wounds
Firewarriors (9.77) w/ Cadre w/ Ethereal at 15" = 9.77*4*.5*.666 = 13 Wounds

Sniper Drones beat Firewarriors over 30" due to range, and in the 9" gap between 15" and 24". In Rapid Fire range of 15", it's not even a contest, Firewarriors take the cake.

So don't give me this "Sniper Drones are Godly" routine. They're average. And they don't score. And they take up a Heavy Slot, performing an anti-infantry role that Firewarriors already do.

Edit: Interestingly, it's also better to just take more Firewarriors. Cadre only helps outside rapid-fire range, and not by much point for point.

So I did all that math for no reason

MadmanMSU wrote:

 Celtic Strike wrote:

Let's do some math. We won't factor in the cost of the Etheral and assume he is boosting both units.

9 Sniper Drones is 135 points, which gets you a Fireblade and 8.3 Fire Warriors, I'll even assume a bit of good luck and round it up to 9 for the test.

This test assumes you're firing at TEQ with no Markerlight assistance.

9 Fire Warriors w/ Fireblade at 15-30": 20 shots, 11.6 hits, 1.3 wounds after saves.

9 Fire Warriors w/ Fireblade & Ethereal up to 15": 40 shots, 21.3 hits, 2.4 wounds after saves.

9 Sniper Drones at 24-48": 9 shots, 7.5 hits, 1.6 wounds after saves.

9 Sniper Drones w/ Ethereal at up to 24": 27 shots, 22.5 hits, 5 wounds after saves.

I believe some of this is wrong:

9 Fire warriors with 3 shots: 27 Shots. X 0.5 (BS3) 13.5 hits. X 0.66 (S 5 Vs T 4) 8.91 Wounds. X 0.33 (3+ save) = 2.94
Fire blade with 3 shots: 3 shots. X 0.83 (BS5) 2.50 hits. X 0.66 (S 5 Vs T 4) 1.65 Wounds. X 0.33 (3+ Save) = 0.54

Squad total: 3.48 Dead marines

9 Fire warriors with 4 shots: 36 Shots. X0.5 (BS3) 18 Hits. X 0.66 (S 5 Vs T 4) 11.88 Wounds. X 0.33 (3+ save) = 3.92 Dead marines
1 Fire Blade 4 shots: 4 Shots X 0.83 (BS 5) 3.33 Hits. X 0.66 (S 5 Vs T 4) 2.20 Wounds. X 0.33 (3+ save) = 0.73 Dead Marines

Squad total = 4.65 Dead Marines. Not 2.4

I also feel 90% confident that Storm of Fire won't work for the pulse sniper.

Gophers original math is faulty.

First of all, 9 Sniper Drones is 148 points, not 135. Which, converted to Firewarriors, is either 16.44 or 9.77 plus a Cadre.

All values are versus T4

Sniper Drones (9) at 48" = 9*.833*.5 = 3.74 Wounds
Sniper Drones (9) w/o Ethereal at 24" = 9*2*.833*.5 = 7.5 Wounds
Sniper Drones (9) w/ Ethereal at 24" = 9*3*.833*.5 = 11.24 Wounds

Firewarriors (16.44) at 30" = 16.44*1*.5*.666 = 5.47 Wounds
Firewarriors (16.44) w/o Ethereal at 15" = 16.44*2*.5*.666 = 10.9 Wounds
Firewarriors (16.44) w/ Ethereal at 15" = 16.44*3*.5*.666 = 16.4 Wounds

Firewarriors (9.77) w/ Cadre at 30" = 9.77*2*.5*.666 = 6.5 Wounds
Firewarriors (9.77) w/ Cadre w/o Ethereal at 15" = 9.77*3*.5*.666 = 9.7 Wounds
Firewarriors (9.77) w/ Cadre w/ Ethereal at 15" = 9.77*4*.5*.666 = 13 Wounds

Sniper Drones beat Firewarriors over 30" due to range, and in the 9" gap between 15" and 24". In Rapid Fire range of 15", it's not even a contest, Firewarriors take the cake.

So don't give me this "Sniper Drones are Godly" routine. They're average. And they don't score. And they take up a Heavy Slot, performing an anti-infantry role that Firewarriors already do.

Edit: Interestingly, it's also better to just take more Firewarriors. Cadre only helps outside rapid-fire range, and not by much point for point.

Let's get some things straight here. Firstly, there's absolutely nothing wrong with my math.

Second, my test assumed that you were firing at TEQ (Terminator or equivalent) as clearly stated in my post.

Third, all of your calculations fail to take a great deal of important factors into account, one of the blindingly obvious ones being ARMOUR SAVES. Since you do not take armour saves into account then that also means that you haven't taken Rending into account. This pretty much makes your test null and void, as most infantry has at least a 4+ save.

Fourth, 9 Sniper Drones are 135 points, not 148. The other 13 points are for a Firesight Marksmen, I didn't feel it would be fair to include his cost in the test, since he already pays for himself twice over in the form of a BS5 Markerlight.

@Celtic Strike, you have also failed to read that my tests were against TEQ, not MEQ, and you have also failed to notice that I included the shots from the Fireblade in addition to the unit of 9 Fire Warriors, this must be the reasons you thought my results were incorrect.

Also, Longshot Pulse Rifles absolutely work with an Ethereal's Storm of Fire, this is not ambiguous and 100% clear in the Codex.

Here we go again, for clarity 's sake, please note that these wounds are AFTER SAVES, i.e. the amount of wounds caused after the opponent has rolled his saving throws...just in case you were confused. This is assuming T4.

VERSUS 5+ ARMOUR

9 Sniper Drones 24-48": 3.75 wounds
9 Sniper Drones 0-24" w/ Ethereal: 11.25 wounds.

9 Fire Warriors 15-30" w/ Fireblade: 7.1 wounds
9 Fire Warriors 0-15" w/ Fireblade & Ethereal: 14.22 wounds

VERSUS 4+ ARMOUR

9 Sniper Drones 24-48": 2.5 wounds
9 Sniper Drones 0-24" w/ Ethereal: 7.5 wounds.

9 Fire Warriors 15-30" w/ Fireblade: 3.5 wounds
9 Fire Warriors 0-15" w/ Fireblade & Ethereal: 7.1 wounds

VERSUS 3+ ARMOUR

9 Sniper Drones 24-48": 2.1 wounds
9 Sniper Drones 0-24" w/ Ethereal: 6.25 wounds.

9 Fire Warriors 15-30" w/ Fireblade: 2.37 wounds
9 Fire Warriors 0-15" w/ Fireblade & Ethereal: 4.74 wounds

VERSUS 2+ ARMOUR

9 Sniper Drones 24-48": 1.66 wounds
9 Sniper Drones 0-24" w/ Ethereal: 5 wounds.

9 Fire Warriors 15-30" w/ Fireblade: 1.19 wounds
9 Fire Warriors 0-15" w/ Fireblade & Ethereal: 2.37 wounds


As I said, nothing wrong with my maths. So there you have it, unless you're firing at infantry with a 5+, Sniper Drones win in terms of raw damage per points spent. Not only that, but they have superior range. To even compete the Fire Warrior;s target needs to be within 15", whereas Sniper Drones can put out more hurt against anything with a 4+ or better save, at an additional 9". Versus Marines, and especially against TEQ, the Drones really start to shine. I will say that between the ranges of 24" and 30", against 3+ or worse, Fire Warriors with a Fireblade are slightly better, but that's just a 6" window.

Even against 5+ infantry, the Drones win hands down between the ranges of 15" and 24". I never said they were godly but they are bloody good, don't forget that on top of all this they have precision shots and pinning.

Edits: my spelling is terrible.

 Celtic Strike wrote:
All I'm saying. GW has a way of changing things that seemed very obvious to begin with I.E Storm bolters and changing the rule to not include them. Sternguard.

Random. words.

The confusion was that boltgun is both a weapon name and a category of weapons. Pulse Weapons is not a specific weapon name, so it can only be the weapon category. Pulse Rifle is not a weapon type name, so it can only be the specific weapon. There's no ambiguity in those Tau rules.

Pathfinders are not the way to go. Markerlight Drones attached to Crisis teams with at least one drone controller are.

Markerlight drones are T4, not T3. They have a 4+ save, not a 5+. They can move and fire their markerlights thanks to jet infantry. They can jump move in the assault phase. They have BS3 (or BS5 when attached to a commander). They provide ablative wounds for your critical Crisis teams. And even factoring in the 8 point drone controller, they are cheaper than pathfinders.

Honestly, I think the proper way to do your markerlights is in your elites slot like I laid out in the following YMDC thread, where apparently it's legal going by RAW:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/519963.page

I'm in favor of a Drone'O myself. 4-6 BS5 JSJ'ing drones with T4 coupled with a unit of pathfinders or two depending on the point limit should work nicely.

Well if your Elite spots are filled by Riptides ... you need to find markerlights elsewhere. I would not use pathfinders over marker drones myself ... yes I know they cost more ... but I like the the toughness and mobility. Just a few squads of four ... sniper drones w/ markerlights (two squads of 6) and you can still add broadsides if you wish. Twelve shots a turn should be okay.

Just my 2 coppers, and I believe LotG mentioned this earlier, but something that is being glossed over a bit for the Sniper Drones is that is a crap load or precision capable shots at tremendous range. So they are much more likely to do more meaningful damage then FW are.

As a Tyranid player that recently went into Tau, Markerlights just seems like a "bonus" to me, you are not relying on them that much as someone claim, Tyranids mostly have BS3 themselves, and kinda forced to play a bit of shooty-shooty in the 6ed so far.

I dunno what the uproar that the tau *need* markerlights, they are handy yes, but mandatory? not as far as i can see.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Just my 2 coppers, and I believe LotG mentioned this earlier, but something that is being glossed over a bit for the Sniper Drones is that is a crap load or precision capable shots at tremendous range. So they are much more likely to do more meaningful damage then FW are.

Quite so. Not to mention the fact that the Sniper Drones become a huge amount better than Fire Warriors once you start factoring in enemy units that are T5+.

When fighting Monstrous Creatures of T6-8 there is no contest, from T6 to T8, assuming a 3+ save and no ++, the Sniper Drones are 60-600% better.

 lordofthegophers wrote:

MadmanMSU wrote:

 Celtic Strike wrote:

Let's do some math. We won't factor in the cost of the Etheral and assume he is boosting both units.

9 Sniper Drones is 135 points, which gets you a Fireblade and 8.3 Fire Warriors, I'll even assume a bit of good luck and round it up to 9 for the test.

This test assumes you're firing at TEQ with no Markerlight assistance.

9 Fire Warriors w/ Fireblade at 15-30": 20 shots, 11.6 hits, 1.3 wounds after saves.

9 Fire Warriors w/ Fireblade & Ethereal up to 15": 40 shots, 21.3 hits, 2.4 wounds after saves.

9 Sniper Drones at 24-48": 9 shots, 7.5 hits, 1.6 wounds after saves.

9 Sniper Drones w/ Ethereal at up to 24": 27 shots, 22.5 hits, 5 wounds after saves.

I believe some of this is wrong:

9 Fire warriors with 3 shots: 27 Shots. X 0.5 (BS3) 13.5 hits. X 0.66 (S 5 Vs T 4) 8.91 Wounds. X 0.33 (3+ save) = 2.94
Fire blade with 3 shots: 3 shots. X 0.83 (BS5) 2.50 hits. X 0.66 (S 5 Vs T 4) 1.65 Wounds. X 0.33 (3+ Save) = 0.54

Squad total: 3.48 Dead marines

9 Fire warriors with 4 shots: 36 Shots. X0.5 (BS3) 18 Hits. X 0.66 (S 5 Vs T 4) 11.88 Wounds. X 0.33 (3+ save) = 3.92 Dead marines
1 Fire Blade 4 shots: 4 Shots X 0.83 (BS 5) 3.33 Hits. X 0.66 (S 5 Vs T 4) 2.20 Wounds. X 0.33 (3+ save) = 0.73 Dead Marines

Squad total = 4.65 Dead Marines. Not 2.4

I also feel 90% confident that Storm of Fire won't work for the pulse sniper.

Gophers original math is faulty.

First of all, 9 Sniper Drones is 148 points, not 135. Which, converted to Firewarriors, is either 16.44 or 9.77 plus a Cadre.

All values are versus T4

Sniper Drones (9) at 48" = 9*.833*.5 = 3.74 Wounds
Sniper Drones (9) w/o Ethereal at 24" = 9*2*.833*.5 = 7.5 Wounds
Sniper Drones (9) w/ Ethereal at 24" = 9*3*.833*.5 = 11.24 Wounds

Firewarriors (16.44) at 30" = 16.44*1*.5*.666 = 5.47 Wounds
Firewarriors (16.44) w/o Ethereal at 15" = 16.44*2*.5*.666 = 10.9 Wounds
Firewarriors (16.44) w/ Ethereal at 15" = 16.44*3*.5*.666 = 16.4 Wounds

Firewarriors (9.77) w/ Cadre at 30" = 9.77*2*.5*.666 = 6.5 Wounds
Firewarriors (9.77) w/ Cadre w/o Ethereal at 15" = 9.77*3*.5*.666 = 9.7 Wounds
Firewarriors (9.77) w/ Cadre w/ Ethereal at 15" = 9.77*4*.5*.666 = 13 Wounds

Sniper Drones beat Firewarriors over 30" due to range, and in the 9" gap between 15" and 24". In Rapid Fire range of 15", it's not even a contest, Firewarriors take the cake.

So don't give me this "Sniper Drones are Godly" routine. They're average. And they don't score. And they take up a Heavy Slot, performing an anti-infantry role that Firewarriors already do.

Edit: Interestingly, it's also better to just take more Firewarriors. Cadre only helps outside rapid-fire range, and not by much point for point.

Let's get some things straight here. Firstly, there's absolutely nothing wrong with my math.

Second, my test assumed that you were firing at TEQ (Terminator or equivalent) as clearly stated in my post.

Third, all of your calculations fail to take a great deal of important factors into account, one of the blindingly obvious ones being ARMOUR SAVES. Since you do not take armour saves into account then that also means that you haven't taken Rending into account. This pretty much makes your test null and void, as most infantry has at least a 4+ save.

Fourth, 9 Sniper Drones are 135 points, not 148. The other 13 points are for a Firesight Marksmen, I didn't feel it would be fair to include his cost in the test, since he already pays for himself twice over in the form of a BS5 Markerlight.

@Celtic Strike, you have also failed to read that my tests were against TEQ, not MEQ, and you have also failed to notice that I included the shots from the Fireblade in addition to the unit of 9 Fire Warriors, this must be the reasons you thought my results were incorrect.

Also, Longshot Pulse Rifles absolutely work with an Ethereal's Storm of Fire, this is not ambiguous and 100% clear in the Codex.

Here we go again, for clarity 's sake, please note that these wounds are AFTER SAVES, i.e. the amount of wounds caused after the opponent has rolled his saving throws...just in case you were confused. This is assuming T4.

VERSUS 5+ ARMOUR

9 Sniper Drones 24-48": 3.75 wounds
9 Sniper Drones 0-24" w/ Ethereal: 11.25 wounds.

9 Fire Warriors 15-30" w/ Fireblade: 7.1 wounds
9 Fire Warriors 0-15" w/ Fireblade & Ethereal: 14.22 wounds

VERSUS 4+ ARMOUR

9 Sniper Drones 24-48": 2.5 wounds
9 Sniper Drones 0-24" w/ Ethereal: 7.5 wounds.

9 Fire Warriors 15-30" w/ Fireblade: 3.5 wounds
9 Fire Warriors 0-15" w/ Fireblade & Ethereal: 7.1 wounds

VERSUS 3+ ARMOUR

9 Sniper Drones 24-48": 2.1 wounds
9 Sniper Drones 0-24" w/ Ethereal: 6.25 wounds.

9 Fire Warriors 15-30" w/ Fireblade: 2.37 wounds
9 Fire Warriors 0-15" w/ Fireblade & Ethereal: 4.74 wounds

VERSUS 2+ ARMOUR

9 Sniper Drones 24-48": 1.66 wounds
9 Sniper Drones 0-24" w/ Ethereal: 5 wounds.

9 Fire Warriors 15-30" w/ Fireblade: 1.19 wounds
9 Fire Warriors 0-15" w/ Fireblade & Ethereal: 2.37 wounds


As I said, nothing wrong with my maths. So there you have it, unless you're firing at infantry with a 5+, Sniper Drones win in terms of raw damage per points spent. Not only that, but they have superior range. To even compete the Fire Warrior;s target needs to be within 15", whereas Sniper Drones can put out more hurt against anything with a 4+ or better save, at an additional 9". Versus Marines, and especially against TEQ, the Drones really start to shine. I will say that between the ranges of 24" and 30", against 3+ or worse, Fire Warriors with a Fireblade are slightly better, but that's just a 6" window.

Even against 5+ infantry, the Drones win hands down between the ranges of 15" and 24". I never said they were godly but they are bloody good, don't forget that on top of all this they have precision shots and pinning.

Edits: my spelling is terrible.

I didn't even read your whole post. You cannot buy 9 sniper drones for 135 points, it's impossible, so there's no point in reading any maths you do when you start from a biased point value. To say that the cost of the Drone Controller is nullified is erroneous, since you cannot buy a Sniper Team without him. It doesn't matter whether or not something else benefits from his Markerlight....the point is that the Sniper team cannot, and discounting his points cost as part of the team is being willfully disingenuous.

Furthermore, as I outlined in my last point, it's more efficient and effective to take more Firewarriors over a Cadre, so your maths will always be biased as long as you continue to compare them that way.

For the cost of a full Sniper Drone team, you can have 16.44 Firewarriors. As such, that is how the comparison should be completed, actual values vs. actual values, not some hypothetical point value you make up. If you can't agree with that, then there's no point in continuing.

MadmanMSU wrote:
I didn't even read your whole post. You cannot buy 9 sniper drones for 135 points, it's impossible, so there's no point in reading any maths you do when you start from a biased point value. To say that the cost of the Drone Controller is nullified is erroneous, since you cannot buy a Sniper Team without him. It doesn't matter whether or not something else benefits from his Markerlight....the point is that the Sniper team cannot, and discounting his points cost as part of the team is being willfully disingenuous.

Furthermore, as I outlined in my last point, it's more efficient and effective to take more Firewarriors over a Cadre, so your maths will always be biased as long as you continue to compare them that way.

For the cost of a full Sniper Drone team, you can have 16.44 Firewarriors. As such, that is how the comparison should be completed, actual values vs. actual values, not some hypothetical point value you make up. If you can't agree with that, then there's no point in continuing.

As you say, 16.44 Fire Warriors (I'll be nice and round up to 17), or 9.7 (10) Fire Warriors and a Fireblade.

LONG RANGE

10 FW + Fireblade: 22 shots, 12.66 hits.

17 FW: 17 shots, 8.5 hits.

SHORT RANGE

10 FW + Fireblade: 33 shots, 17.5 hits.

17 FW: 34 shots, 17 hits.


The fact that the Fireblade is BS5 means they win at short range even with 1 less shot. Not only that, but he makes the unit Ld9 and has a Markerlight. Fireblade is even more effective in a unit of 12, and while short range is a close call, long range is absolutely no contest.

I'm really not sure how you're reaching these strange conclusions.

In regards to my previous test, factoring in the cost of the Firesight Marksman would mean that I would have to test with 9.7 Fire Warriors, instead of 9.

I crunched the numbers again and the difference of 0.7 Fire Warriors was so insignificant that it's not even worth posting the results.

Edit: I misunderstood you, you're saying that I should be comparing 148 points of Fire Warriors to a full unit of Sniper Drones without any HQ assistance.

I have done so and the Fire Warriors are better at both long and short ranges against T4, with a 4+ or worse. Against anything with a 3+ or T5+ the Sniper Drones are better.

This is all forgetting the fact that Sniper Drones have BS5 Markerlights, Precision Shots, Rending, AND Pinning.

Having said all this I think we have gone way off topic...this should be in the 'Effectiveness of Sniper Drones' thread

The rule is clear and specifically says it affects Kroot pulse rounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My build has 3 Markmens and 3 Sniper drones for the SDT. I also have a Mark'O with eight drones attached to a crisis team of Fire Knives. Very effective in bringing AP3 pie plates with no cover.

 lordofthegophers wrote:

MadmanMSU wrote:
I didn't even read your whole post. You cannot buy 9 sniper drones for 135 points, it's impossible, so there's no point in reading any maths you do when you start from a biased point value. To say that the cost of the Drone Controller is nullified is erroneous, since you cannot buy a Sniper Team without him. It doesn't matter whether or not something else benefits from his Markerlight....the point is that the Sniper team cannot, and discounting his points cost as part of the team is being willfully disingenuous.

Furthermore, as I outlined in my last point, it's more efficient and effective to take more Firewarriors over a Cadre, so your maths will always be biased as long as you continue to compare them that way.

For the cost of a full Sniper Drone team, you can have 16.44 Firewarriors. As such, that is how the comparison should be completed, actual values vs. actual values, not some hypothetical point value you make up. If you can't agree with that, then there's no point in continuing.

As you say, 16.44 Fire Warriors (I'll be nice and round up to 17), or 9.7 (10) Fire Warriors and a Fireblade.

LONG RANGE

10 FW + Fireblade: 22 shots, 12.66 hits.

17 FW: 17 shots, 8.5 hits.

SHORT RANGE

10 FW + Fireblade: 33 shots, 17.5 hits.

17 FW: 34 shots, 17 hits.


The fact that the Fireblade is BS5 means they win at short range even with 1 less shot. Not only that, but he makes the unit Ld9 and has a Markerlight. Fireblade is even more effective in a unit of 12, and while short range is a close call, long range is absolutely no contest.

I'm really not sure how you're reaching these strange conclusions.

In regards to my previous test, factoring in the cost of the Firesight Marksman would mean that I would have to test with 9.7 Fire Warriors, instead of 9.

I crunched the numbers again and the difference of 0.7 Fire Warriors was so insignificant that it's not even worth posting the results.

Edit: I misunderstood you, you're saying that I should be comparing 148 points of Fire Warriors to a full unit of Sniper Drones without any HQ assistance.

I have done so and the Fire Warriors are better at both long and short ranges against T4, with a 4+ or worse. Against anything with a 3+ or T5+ the Sniper Drones are better.

This is all forgetting the fact that Sniper Drones have BS5 Markerlights, Precision Shots, Rending, AND Pinning.

Having said all this I think we have gone way off topic...this should be in the 'Effectiveness of Sniper Drones' thread

I'm feeling lazy this morning, so I'm going to use the Heresy Combat Calculator.

Full sniper drone team, Rapid Fire range, with Ethereal: 3.75 dead T4 TEQs
17 Firewarriors, Rapid Fire Range, with Ethereal: 2.83 dead TEQs

As you say, Sniper drones beat Firewarriors. I don't think there's any argument here, we can both agree on that. But you're telling me you want to give up a heavy slot for a unit that is Non-Scoring and kills 0.92 more Terminators per turn? When you already have scoring Firewarriors that do it almost as well?

Why?

MadmanMSU wrote:

I'm feeling lazy this morning, so I'm going to use the Heresy Combat Calculator.

Full sniper drone team, Rapid Fire range, with Ethereal: 3.75 dead T4 TEQs Yet again you have failed to take Rending into account, this should be 5 dead T4 TEQS.
17 Firewarriors, Rapid Fire Range, with Ethereal: 2.83 dead TEQs

As you say, Sniper drones beat Firewarriors. I don't think there's any argument here, we can both agree on that. But you're telling me you want to give up a heavy slot for a unit that is Non-Scoring and kills 0.92 more Terminators per turn? When you already have scoring Firewarriors that do it almost as well?

Why?

Why?

Because Sniper Drones rapid fire range is 24", not 15". This is a big deal.

Because Sniper Drones are still effective at up to 48" range.

Because Sniper Drones provide up to three BS5 Markerlights for the rest of the army.

Because Sniper Drones have Precision Shots.

Because Sniper Drones cause a Pinning test if they wound.

Because Sniper Drones are majority T4.

Because Sniper Drones have Stealth.

Because not only are Sniper Drones more effective against MEQ/TEQ, they can reliably kill Monstrous Creatures and high toughness Infantry.

MadmanMSU wrote:

As you say, Sniper drones beat Firewarriors. I don't think there's any argument here, we can both agree on that. But you're telling me you want to give up a heavy slot for a unit that is Non-Scoring and kills 0.92 more Terminators per turn? When you already have scoring Firewarriors that do it almost as well?

Why?

Just throwing my 2 cents into the discussion, you bring up the fact that SDT are Heavy Support and Non-Scoring. ALL Heavy Support options are Non-Scoring unless you are playing Big Guns Never Tire.

Also both of you are comparing a Troops choice against a Heavy Support choice, this is pointless unless you plan to bring only Kroot for your troops and you have approx 150-180 points left over that you can't decide on what you want to bring. I understand the argument that there are better Heavy Support option you could bring other then SDTs, however this thread is about using/bringing Markerlights in your army. So lets look at it that way:

A bare bones Fire Warriors(6 dudes) can take 2 Marker Drones and IIRC the Shas'ui can take a Drone Controller for a total of 96 points. That is 2 BS3 Markerlights. This is not counting the Markerlight the Shas'ui can take either.

A SDT with 3 Marksmen and 3 Sniper Drones is a total of 84 points. That 3 BS5 Marklights for 12 points less.

From strictly a point of which unit is better for bringing Markerlights to the battlefield, the Sniper Drone Team is better than a Fire Warrior unit period.

Please let me know if my points totals are off, I am doing this all from memory as I do not have my codex at work with me right now.

SDT seem pretty good, especially anti TEQ firepower.
The more important comparison IMO is not how they compare to Firewarriors, but how they compare to the other heavy support choices: Ionheads, Railheads, Railsides and Missilesides.

Also...comparisons of 17 firewarriors seem a little facetious to me, seeing as you've only got 12 to a squad at most.

TinyKing wrote:
So, I'm a pretty new Hammer...er and I just picked up the new Tau codex. Obviously Markerlights are the new hotness and therefore should be included as much as possible. My question is, however, how many? Say I want to start with a base force of a Cadre Fireblade and two FW squads. Should I do the Shas'ui upgrade, give him Markerlights, then take Markerlight drones? I don't want to go overboard when I could use the drones for something else, but they do only have BS2 after all. Thanks for any help!

Back to the OP. the Markerlight upgrade for the Shas'ui's is not worth it. Also personally, I don't like the idea of Marker Drones as part of a FW unit, I think those points can be better spent elsewhere.

Lumipon wrote:
Pathfinders, Tetras and Firesight spotters are the source of markerlights you want. Because a Firewarrior unit can't use its own markerlights, having ML drones is useless unless you str going to shoot at that same target with a second unit.

If you plan to go with a Cadre Fireblade and 2 FW squads as the base of your army, to me that seems like you want to do an infantry list. Then Pathfinders are the way to go. I would take atleast 2 5 man Pathfinder units for Markerlight support depending on the size of the game. Pathfinders became a lot better IMHO with this codex, and you don't have to pay the Devilfish Tax any more.

Tetras were phenomenal in the last codex because they were cheaper and more mobile compared to Pathfinders for the same amount of Markerlights. Right now I think that they are in a kind of grey area. Our codex no longer has Targeting Arrays or Target Lock for vehicles, which made Tetras really shine, whereas the current rules for the Tetra still allow it to take both of those upgrades. So until Forgeworld releases an update for all of its current Tau units to bring them more in line with the new dex, you should probably talk with your friends/opponents to see if they will be ok with you running them with TA/Target Lock.

Back to the OP. the Markerlight upgrade for the Shas'ui's is not worth it. Also personally, I don't like the idea of Marker Drones as part of a FW unit, I think those points can be better spent elsewhere.

I see this posted a lot and I really question the logic behind it. Why? I get that its a slightly higher investment, but the gains from that investment are you get a markerlight that doesn't just die the second something sneezes at it. I really think this is an outdated line of thinking, possibly a hold over from 5th edition and MSU. Pathfinders against an experienced opponent fire once and die. Shas'ui and marker drones spread out through out your troops fire all game long until your opponent dedicates fire to them. While you may not be able to address all of your ML needs from the troop slot, I do think it's a good place to start.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
I see this posted a lot and I really question the logic behind it. Why? I get that its a slightly higher investment, but the gains from that investment are you get a markerlight that doesn't just die the second something sneezes at it.

The 2 main reasons I don't like the Markerlight upgrade for the Shas'ui are:
1 Cost. Both the cost of the Shas'ui upgrade to the unit and then the cost of the markerlight on top of that.
2 The Markerlight is a heavy weapon, now your Shas'ui has to either stand still to fire it or move and snap fire. I like my FW teams to be constantly moving, so snap firing 1 Markerlight just seems pointless.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
I really think this is an outdated line of thinking, possibly a hold over from 5th edition and MSU. Pathfinders against an experienced opponent fire once and die.

Any unit against an experience opponent can die in one round of shooting or assault. Also there are way that you can improve the survivability of your Pathfinders. Real easy one, 50 point and take a ADL that most players take anyways. And now with our army's new vast amount of AA you don't have to pay extra for the gun if you don't want to.

Above all, please remember this is just my personal opinion. My best friend also plays Tau, and with the way he runs his army compared to the way I run mine, they might as well as be 2 different armies. So really the best advice I could give to the OP is write up a few army lists, get together with some friends and play a bunch of games to find out what you like and to see how things run. You may find that taking a Markerlight on a Shas'ui and 2 Marker Drones with you FW squads could be the best thing for you or you could find it to be a waste of time.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Back to the OP. the Markerlight upgrade for the Shas'ui's is not worth it. Also personally, I don't like the idea of Marker Drones as part of a FW unit, I think those points can be better spent elsewhere.

I see this posted a lot and I really question the logic behind it. Why? I get that its a slightly higher investment, but the gains from that investment are you get a markerlight that doesn't just die the second something sneezes at it. I really think this is an outdated line of thinking, possibly a hold over from 5th edition and MSU. Pathfinders against an experienced opponent fire once and die. Shas'ui and marker drones spread out through out your troops fire all game long until your opponent dedicates fire to them. While you may not be able to address all of your ML needs from the troop slot, I do think it's a good place to start.

I agree and disagree with this. I do think that the ML in FW squad strategy isn't a bad one (though I don't do it myself, but points are tight and i'm not relying on MLs to begin with). Pathfinders aren't super easy to kill and i've actually not lost mine in the handful of games i've played though my opponents have focused on them heavily. Anecdotal of course, but I think with 36" range and smart deployment (infiltrate helps) you can mitigate how easily they are killed. Most long-range weaponry is of the high strength variety and if my opponent decides to waste high strength shots on them, i'll be glad to GTG and make him waste them lol.

I think a really good way to increase ML is to take a commander with drone controller for some BS5 drones and a durable reliable ML squad if needed.

All fair points, and I definitely get the Heavy weapon one. I'm mainly thinking of the 2 or so units that you would have chilling back in your deployment zone here, and remember in 6th you can move the rest of the unit without having to move the ML. But if your loading these cats in a Fish or otherwise wanting them to stay mobile all game I can totally see not making the investment.

LValx wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Back to the OP. the Markerlight upgrade for the Shas'ui's is not worth it. Also personally, I don't like the idea of Marker Drones as part of a FW unit, I think those points can be better spent elsewhere.

I see this posted a lot and I really question the logic behind it. Why? I get that its a slightly higher investment, but the gains from that investment are you get a markerlight that doesn't just die the second something sneezes at it. I really think this is an outdated line of thinking, possibly a hold over from 5th edition and MSU. Pathfinders against an experienced opponent fire once and die. Shas'ui and marker drones spread out through out your troops fire all game long until your opponent dedicates fire to them. While you may not be able to address all of your ML needs from the troop slot, I do think it's a good place to start.

I agree and disagree with this. I do think that the ML in FW squad strategy isn't a bad one (though I don't do it myself, but points are tight and i'm not relying on MLs to begin with). Pathfinders aren't super easy to kill and i've actually not lost mine in the handful of games i've played though my opponents have focused on them heavily. Anecdotal of course, but I think with 36" range and smart deployment (infiltrate helps) you can mitigate how easily they are killed. Most long-range weaponry is of the high strength variety and if my opponent decides to waste high strength shots on them, i'll be glad to GTG and make him waste them lol.

I think a really good way to increase ML is to take a commander with drone controller for some BS5 drones and a durable reliable ML squad if needed.

Infiltrating your pathfinders would be a great way to make sure they are in a good position......too bad they dont have that ability.

My cousin plays necrons. Im putting rail rifles and ion rifles with my pathfinders. I also plan on taking a mark'O. He shoots first. Then path finders destroy the unit with help from markerlights and lights up whatever might be left for whatever unit will kill it. thats my plan to take out the biggest threat i think is coming at me. The rest of the army will whittle things down until my mark'o decides it needs to die. We'll see how it works this Sat.

Infiltrating your pathfinders would be a great way to make sure they are in a good position......too bad they dont have that ability.

My cousin plays necrons. Im putting rail rifles and ion rifles with my pathfinders. I also plan on taking a mark'O. He shoots first. Then path finders destroy the unit with help from markerlights and lights up whatever might be left for whatever unit will kill it. thats my plan to take out the biggest threat i think is coming at me. The rest of the army will whittle things down until my mark'o decides it needs to die. We'll see how it works this Sat.

Not to speak for LValx, but he's probably thinking of either using them in conjunction with Shadowsun or the recon drones.

Meant scouts, the redeploy can be useful as folks forget about it at times.

My bad! I didnt realize 1 dude could give a squad infiltrate

Wolfnid420 wrote:
My bad! I didnt realize 1 dude could give a squad infiltrate

They can't.

Infiltrate from BRB:

"Units that contain at least one model
with this special rule are deployed last,
after all other units (friend and foe)
have been deployed."

So, all other units must be deployed before Shadowsun has a chance to join a unit (Independent Characters join units when they are deployed, not before).

However, you can join an Independent Character to a unit if both the IC and unit are held in reserve, thus conferring the Outflank special rule to the unit.

Syradin wrote:

2 The Markerlight is a heavy weapon, now your Shas'ui has to either stand still to fire it or move and snap fire. I like my FW teams to be constantly moving, so snap firing 1 Markerlight just seems pointless.

But if you have a squad with a Cadre Fireblade, you want to stay still as much as possible anyway.

MadmanMSU wrote:

I didn't even read your whole post. You cannot buy 9 sniper drones for 135 points, it's impossible, so there's no point in reading any maths you do when you start from a biased point value. To say that the cost of the Drone Controller is nullified is erroneous, since you cannot buy a Sniper Team without him. It doesn't matter whether or not something else benefits from his Markerlight....the point is that the Sniper team cannot, and discounting his points cost as part of the team is being willfully disingenuous.

Furthermore, as I outlined in my last point, it's more efficient and effective to take more Firewarriors over a Cadre, so your maths will always be biased as long as you continue to compare them that way.

For the cost of a full Sniper Drone team, you can have 16.44 Firewarriors. As such, that is how the comparison should be completed, actual values vs. actual values, not some hypothetical point value you make up. If you can't agree with that, then there's no point in continuing.

How much is the Sniper Drone Team? 58 points. How much is another 6 Sniper Drones? 90 points. So that is 148 points. Now, subtract the cost of the Marksman, 13 points. 148-13 = 135. He's comparing the cost of a Sniper Drone Team sans Marksman because the marksman does not actually cause any damage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lordofthegophers wrote:

Wolfnid420 wrote:
My bad! I didnt realize 1 dude could give a squad infiltrate

They can't.

Infiltrate from BRB:

"Units that contain at least one model
with this special rule are deployed last,
after all other units (friend and foe)
have been deployed."

So, all other units must be deployed before Shadowsun has a chance to join a unit (Independent Characters join units when they are deployed, not before).

However, you can join an Independent Character to a unit if both the IC and unit are held in reserve, thus conferring the Outflank special rule to the unit.

Aaaaaand no. You can. If the IC is deployed with the unit, they are deployed together, it doesn't matter if they're deployed first or last. The unit has at least one model in it with Infiltrate, that's Shadowsun.